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Lumberyard: Amazon's CryEngine-based engine with free source code

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Frpmta, Feb 9, 2016.

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  1. Deleted User

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    Yeah I do, probably give them a bit of time and they'll sort it (if they listen to the community).. Luckily for me I have like six CryEngine how to books, they might be a bit out of date but usefull..

    Flowgraph is ok to get started with, BP's in Unreal are better but it does the job.
     
  2. LeftyTwoGuns

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    So is it just CryEngine rebranded? I guess CryEngine material would be a good place to start then
     
  3. Deleted User

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    Apparently they made 41 pages of changes and fixes, but I can't see it being "THAT" different for now.

    Of course I will check it out tomorrow and report back.
     
  4. GarBenjamin

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    Spent lunch break digging around in the docs. Seems like it is basically Unity, UE, insert-other-modern-3D game-dev thingy here.

    Much of it I didn't really get because they seemed to be jumping back and forth between code and xml config files. That part made little sense to me because I'd prefer just doing it all in code but maybe it works out in practice. I did think their AI systems look quite good. They seem to handle many different aspects across different levels.

    Ultimately, I think the only way to really know if it is better, worse or same ole thing is to spend the time downloading the 10 GB file, install, set up all of the required stuff and go through several of the tutorials.

    I have some interest in doing that but sounds like a lot of effort and time to me compared to playing Diablo 3.
     
  5. zenGarden

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    Because XML files and flowgraphs are other ways CryEngine deals with AI.


    -What about import process and tools ? CryEngine has an over complicated workflow and also uses outdated tools to make UI with scaleform , i doubt Amazon improved the tools and workflow.
    - Royalties ?
    -Can you work offline without cloud ? Can you deploy a standalone game ?
    -What is the licensing ?


    I think this is Cryengine , more open , but this is still the same engine complicated C++ and workflow.
    Unlike Stingray the engine seems to have a good support , the only way sot see the engine begin to be popular is to have users making new extensions, new tools , chaning the workflow like replacing ScaleForm.
    Unlike this happens you have a fast 3D engine, but harder to use and program than Unity or UE4 :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  6. Deleted User

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    Scaleform has been replaced YAY!..

    @GarBenjamin

    Did you know (or care) that we started off with CryEngine? Just two people making a top down RPG, well it switched to FP but that's irrelvant. The engine was fantastic, yeah it's a little odd and complicated in places but nothing was so simple to make good looking AAA worthy games with.

    But we hit a core problem with the engine, it'd crash during certain cutscenes. I e-mailed Crytek, tried to get support on the forums about it and nothing.. We couldn't even get a reply for an "indie" license, I sent them some more correspondence saying look, were not broke indie's and we'll pay you for a support contract just give us a figure. Even if it would of been 5K a month, so be it and nothing. We heard absolutley nothing...

    We were forced to jump ship and I've never found anything so suited to what we do since, it was a "Crying" shame.

    I still "gush" over CE today, it truly was awesome.. Hopefully with Amazon in charge, it could be worth getting involved in.
     
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  7. GarBenjamin

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    I started the download at end of lunch break just in case I need a break from playing D3 tonight.
     
  8. zenGarden

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    Oh yes.
    But this version won't get SVOGI and Cryteck evolutions , let's see if Amazon guys are able to bring great features ?

    Perhaps they will change the workflow like using Gimp instead of paying the subscription for Photoshop, it would be great.
     
  9. GarBenjamin

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    I can understand that. The thing is C and C++ are not complicated. Like many others around here I went from Assembly to C to C++ to C#. Not really for my own preferences but just because that is the way things changed.

    I don't mind a little odd stuff in there as long as things work and work in a sensible manner. It actually has more to it than I had expected. As far as out-of-the-box functionality I mean. I got the impression I could probably easily do what I want as far as enemy AI simply because they have such a rich set of features already built for it. Like way beyond what I have seen out of the box elsewhere.
     
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  11. zenGarden

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    Indeed it has a lot, it is more open than Cryengine, but this is still the same engine stuck to the same problems. Unity stays the more easy to use with faster results that can be used by beginners and not only advanced people :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  12. RichardKain

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    For now, I would tend to agree. Lack of FBX/Blender support is especially galling for a Blender-enthusiast such as myself. Being able to get your content into an engine quickly and easily is a big part of usability.

    That said, I am impressed with how Amazon is handling this move. Making the engine open-source from the get-go will go a long way towards attracting the attention of more technically-focused developers. And those are the kind of developers that you want tinkering with your engine if your aim is long-term development and curated improvements. I could see a fairly impressive community start to develop around an engine like this. Amazon is being pretty clever here.
     
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  13. zenGarden

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    Will really grow or will stay a niche ? Look at Stingray , today it only has few people behind the scenes to bring features (still no terrain tools and editor for example), a good game engine and editor is not Autodesk priority.
     
  14. hippocoder

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    Although there's a lot to be said for an engine having it's own plugins for the bigger apps like Max or Maya. Tight integration and foolproof workflow for characters. Wish Unity had it instead of generic fbx support.
     
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  15. RichardKain

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    Well, it's hard to say at this point. A lot of that is going to depend heavily on the continued support that it gets going forward, both from Amazon and whatever community grows up around it. That is a big question mark.

    I do think that Amazon has managed to accrue a significant amount of gaming talent and expertise over the past few years. So they have the people they need to make that continued support happen. And they also have clear motivation. Web-services has been hugely profitable for Amazon. An initiative like this could bolster that business for them, and provide them with considerable recurring revenue. It's also a solid means of drawing in content creators for Twitch. So at least where Amazon is concerned, I think that Lumberyard is definitely going to get steady support and development. We'll see regular updates and improvements to it over the next year at least.

    The community for Lumberyard is anyone's guess. It's difficult to predict that sort of thing. The lack of mobile support as a build target is a pretty big minus. There are a lot of developers who won't be interested because of that alone. (myself among them) But aside from that there are a lot of pretty solid draws for such an engine. And Amazon's initial launch is promising, with quite a few concessions that could help to build a solid community early on. I think they stand a pretty good chance.
     
  16. Deleted User

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    You can't compare Stingray to CryEngine (or LumberJack as I keep calling it), Stringray was the genetic crossbreed of UE4 and Unity, but didn't really offer the main benefits of either.

    I said all along, how could you convince someone to switch over an unproven engine that gives little benefit? Why would you throw away years of experience?

    CE is a proven AAA engine.
     
  17. zenGarden

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    The community is as empty as Paradox engine (renamed Xenko) it is a niche only, perhaps you will see one or two big games made with it. Anyway having these engines is good , because it is more choice and different options for hobbyst and game developpers.

    The same for Unity, will people throw away a very easy to use engine like Unity ? and let down all Unity available plugin tools and templates ? or let down a so easy to use C# ? i doubt.
    About beginners or users using Playmaker , people making 2D games, CryEngine is not for them.
    Today this is only a CryEngine bis, with a community worst than CryEngine, there is nothing really new , only a free version with some different options.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  18. Deleted User

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    Well it depends what you're doing, Unity is difficult to use compared to UE in some respects and vice versa. Same goes for CE, depends on what suits your project.

    It could be worth it, might not be depends on the developer to research it.
     
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  19. PhilSA

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    Well, personally, I've been looking for alternatives to Unity for a long time now. There is too much you can't do without source access. Have you ever tried making a decent custom character controller in Unity? Impossible. You don't have access to discrete collision detection libraries, so you must rely on rigidbody physics, which is never a good idea for a CC. And the built-in CC is infamously buggy.

    Also, this thing http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/12/23/1k-update-calls/
    certainly wasn't good news....

    As long as Unity keeps the sources away from us, people will be looking elsewhere. I fully agree that making the jump to an unproven engine is scary, though
     
  20. zenGarden

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    You mean for advanced users, like the majority i will stay a game coder not some engine coder.
    I just baught a great controller from the store.
     
  21. RichardKain

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    (Shrug) Well, that's only natural at the moment. Lumberyard was essentially "launched" today. It takes time to build up any manner of community. This is one of the biggest advantages that an engine like Unity enjoys. It's been around for a very long time, and has had plenty of time to build up the community surrounding it. These sorts of things don't happen overnight. That's why stressed that it's anyone's guess. We won't, and can't know how the community surrounding the engine will end up. And we won't find out for at least another year, maybe two. There are some things Amazon themselves can do to assist in developing their engine's community. But the people using the engine are what will ultimately form and drive the community. And there's no real way to predict how they will react.

    So it's going to be a wait-and-see scenario. Still, I'm glad to see capable competition in this space.
     
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  22. PhilSA

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    the controller you bought from the store most likely uses rigidbody physics. That means its movement will be capped to whatever your fixedDeltatime is (by default, 50 fps). This difference between the rendering fps and your movement's fps creates a slight choppy motion, which is very characteristic of most unity games. You may not consciously notice it at first, but compare it against an object that moves on Update() at a good FPS and you'll notice it right away.

    Also, here's an explanation from the Nvidia PhysX guide on why character controllers shouldn't use rigidbody physics: http://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/co.../physx/guide/Manual/CharacterControllers.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  23. hippocoder

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    Even has a pet hippo in it's own pond.

    There's competition and there's race to the bottom. Seems to be the latter at this point, so whoever has the backend services everyone wants, will probably come out on top. Amazon is banking on multiplayer and friendly services.
     
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  24. Frpmta

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    So how do other engines work around this?
    Matching physics timestep to framerate?
     
  25. hippocoder

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    Well I disagree with them and rolled my own rigidbody based one that does everything character controller ever did, but faster and physical. So I'm with havok's advice on this case (they also recommend the rigidbody physical approach). Nvidia are only right if you want a ton of boilerplate code to restore missing physical functionality, or you don't really require it to be more than arcade.

    TLDR: character controller sucks and has some terrible flaws. Use it for simple games, or arcade games.
     
  26. yoonitee

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    10 GB download????? vs 1.5GB for Unity?
    Nah, can't be bothered downloading that.
    What do you get with your 10GB exactly? thousands of free assets? 10 free Hollywood movies? Wish they'd just let me download the core engine.
     
  27. PhilSA

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    They use what's called "discrete collision detection". Basically, your character's capsule collider will manually check on Update() all the colliders it is currently overlapping with, and push itself away from them. The problem with unity is that the only place where collisions can be checked is in OnCollisionX(), which happens at fixed delta times

    more on that here: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/we...-collision-hits-manually.379699/#post-2471807
     
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  28. hippocoder

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    You'd probably like my internet, takes less than 5 mins. I sound obnoxious but, yeah I'm just as entitled as you to comment on the issue. The fact is, download size has no bearing on if you need something or not. If you need a tool, you get the tool. Clearly, you don't need it.
     
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  29. yoonitee

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    It's partly about download time. But also, I can run Unity on my 64GB Mac Book Air.

    My point is just the actual core engine of CryEngine can't actually be that big. So most of that 10GB must be artwork, music or videos. Most of which I won't ever use in my own games. So if I could suggest something to them it would be to separate out all that stuff and have it as a separate download. Like how Unity doesn't require you to download Angry Bots.
     
  30. zenGarden

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    Cryteck knew they sold their 3D engine to Amazon that could use it in any way, i think we will have some big news on GDC about CryEngine.
     
  31. Deleted User

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    Lumberyard was, but CryEngine wasn't and they are pretty much the same thing.. CE has been around nearly as long as Unity has, just everyone ran away because of silly problems that took half the time and effort to fix than spending whatever they did on R&D as a marketing exercise.

    So it might get a lot of the "advanced" devs back and it'll probably change from, look how awesome we are!, we made this engine that only we can really use. To hey, here's an awesome engine and we'll make it useable..

    Big difference :D.
     
  32. RichardKain

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    Unity was one of the biggest Mac-related game engines back in 2004. Crytek didn't start licensing its engine out until version 3 in 2010. Before that it was more of an in-house engine and not used as middleware. Unity was middleware in some of its earliest versions. A middleware platform is naturally going to attract a larger development community than a closed in-house engine.

    And even after CryEngine started to become an actual middleware platform, it failed to develop a community for all the reasons that I've already stated. Amazon is in a great position to make sure that scenario doesn't get repeated.

    You'll also note that I'm not actively trying to "big" up this new Lumberyard engine. I've stated numerous times that it has its drawbacks, and is probably too early-on for any serious commitment on the part of active developers. I'm just also pointing out that Amazon stands a decent chance to actually make something of its new engine. It would be a mistake to simply conflate CryEngine with Lumberyard.
     
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  33. Ryiah

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    Just checked Unity's 5.3.2 web installer. Support for desktop platforms, mobile platforms, and WebGL makes it about 8GB.
     
  34. Rasly2

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    I think cryengine is very overrated.
     
  35. zenGarden

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    I agree , most users making indie games won't be able to do any game with it.
    But it has real time good GI with zero baking , and this is a really faster engine than UE4 with as great graphics and effects and hight compression packaging. So some highly skilled people should find some use of it.

    The biggest issue is the engine and it's code is stuck in first person games only (this is hard to make other games genres).
     
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  36. Deleted User

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    I think you're overrated, whoever you are?? *Cough anyway. Just joking ;)..

    @RichardKain

    I get you, but the point I was trying to make: CryEngine has a good basis built on a solid reputation, every developer knows what CryEngine is. So it was a smart move to build on that foundation and bring attraction based upon that, as opposed to starting from scratch and trying to be the next Unity or Unreal..

    CryEngine "itself" not as a developers tool, has nearly been around as long as Unity.

    There's one major problem I forsee, a splashscreen with LumberJack... Oops I mean LumberYard written on it.

    @zenGarden

    Meh, it's no harder than UE4..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2016
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  37. PhilSA

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    Out of curiosity, what makes CryEngine FPS-centered?

    I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it comes right out of the box with a full FPS character and code already in place for weapons and such, but does it make it hard to do other things?
     
  38. zenGarden

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    UE4 Blueprints is more easy and C++ is more easy to use and understand because they created some high level classses and simplified lot of things for users, while Cryengine C++ is lot more complicated with no classes simplifications.
    Or perhaps i am too newbbie and bad with C++ ?

    CryEngine would need dragstic changes to get interest from newbbies, hobbyst and indies, i am not sure Amazon engineers will make these big changes ? I don't expect a lot from community (look at Xenko engine , this is only Xenko team bringing some features or making new changes unfortunatelly).

    You must dig the code, tutorials and tools to see that all is around fps games , even if vehicle or space ship is possible (Star Citizen game is a big code customisation or Cry Engine).
     
  39. alt.tszyu

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    <facepalm/>
    So far only exporting from the full Maya and 3ds Max. Not even the LT versions. I'm sure this will change. Not sure how soon though.
     
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  40. Deleted User

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    Lol, N00B!.

    Well they've already made 41 pages of changes, worked on it for a year. So why not, CryEngine in places is overly complicated for no apparent reason at all and in other places plain weird. They really need to simplify it and document the hell out of it.. That's for sure.

    Unless they do that, they won't attract a massive crowd. But if you're working on a decent RPG / FPS / RTS etc. it doesn't matter what engine you're in, it's not easy. CE and UE are more equipped for that task than others, in respects to things like AI etc. but you'll want to do something simple like swap out a char and it's a pain. It's always six of one half a dozen of the other. Doing custom systems for Unity can be a proper mare, again it depends..

    @alt.tszyu

    No it supports .FBX import from anything, CE worked on it for the SDK under steam releases. Looks like Amazon finished it off.. I'm only reading docs though, so how it works in practice might reveal some issues.
     
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  41. alt.tszyu

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    Have you figured it out? For the f##$ing life in me, I can't figure out how. Even going through their tutorials, there is no "importing tutorials", only "export" tutorials from Max and Maya.
    From my hour of trying out this engine, its just as hostile to us poor, indie devs as CryEngine is/was.
     
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  42. Deleted User

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    View --> Open View Pane --> FBX import, from the sandbox editor..

    Umm yeah, like that makes sense.
     
  43. zenGarden

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    Like a lot of people we are only high level coders and engine users :rolleyes:

    For static objects only, not for rigged characters. You are forced to pay a Maya or 3DSMAX subscription, there is no way to import Modo characters and animations if i am not wrong browsing the site.

    But the changes are not the essential ones that could attract users. Universal FBX import (static and characters animations) , Keep Maya and Max as options not essential tools, high level classes and C++ simplification, Classes and templates for other game genres, simplification on the system like no more need of ID creation for assets and many more old stuff like that . Today this is still essentially CryEngine and same restrictions that most people won't like.
    Whilethis version will worth it for really skilled people as it is free.
    I just wonder what Cryteck will do with actual subscription ? they knew the engine was sold so i hope they was preparing something behind the scenes ? No more "look at my engine , only me can use it" ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
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  44. alt.tszyu

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    Wow! Lol. That did it!
    Yep...makes perfect sense. o_O
     
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  45. GarBenjamin

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    Looks good for the initial launch and they already have many things on the development list. I don't see it as being worth my time investigating any more at this point. Definitely be something to revisit later in the year. Maybe over the end of year holidays. I expect they'll have workflows streamlined and everything just in better all around condition by then. Alright, back to Diablo 3.
     
  46. Ryiah

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    You think CryEngine is overkill for your 2D games? :p

    I'm typing up posts between rifts too. :D
     
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  47. Deleted User

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    Has something interesting happened to D3 I'm not aware of?
     
  48. Murgilod

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    Looks interesting. In a few months I'll give it a look. Hopefully they solve some of the major workflow issues CryEngine had though.
     
  49. Ryiah

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    No idea. I've got a friend who started playing again though and I joined her.
     
  50. GarBenjamin

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    Ha ha. Definitely wouldn't use it for 2D. I think Monkey X is ideal for 2D game dev. Basically I figured I'd use MX for 2D games and Unity for 3D games. Lumberyard may be a candidate for 3D.

    Cool. Didn't know you played!

    Nothing in particular for me. They just always update it adding more stuff to do. I took a break from it for many months while checking into different game dev frameworks and working on a few game projects. Reached a point on the latest project where I needed to do a bit of thinking... so I got back into playing Diablo 3 and been playing ever since. Just hit Paragon 442 about 10 minutes ago. I was already 441 so it only took one T9 rift run to the RG to get it. It's just a great game in my opinion but I also played the heck out of D2 and the original Diablo long ago.
     
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