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Looking for people interested in talking about RPGs.

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by Feeble1, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    Any discussion is welcome. I am currently trying to make a game similar to a combination of Fable and Kingdom Hearts.

    I find that I have way more motivation if I have someone to talk to about games. My hope is that there are people out there who feel the same.

    No pressure, but I do look forward to hearing from all of you.
     
  2. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Many people have different expectation about RPG and feel stronly about their version is the right one and everyone else is dumb, how do you expect the conversation to go. People who like Witcher 3 will looked down on kingdom heart as a rpg (personally it's action adveneture to me lol), Wrpg vs jrpg will rage, turn base vs real time will bicker about the true strategic depth, someone will mention zelda and it will muddy the water (action adventure too) and then some will lost it when pokemon will be drop as a reference, that will be nothing when someone will troll with call of duty xp system ....

    I mean what define an RPG? It has plot and lock and key (like adventure game), there is no single format for combat (can be any action game or the distinction of scale from strategy game is really vague, after all suikoden has 108 characters and grandia made placement important, so do fire emblem count?), xp and skill progression is everywhere now, story and open world don't make an rpg, and what about auxilary system are they mandatory (like branching dialogue, karma point, moral decision, cooking, crafting, etc ...)

    RPG is both too fluid and too personal to have a sensible discussion that don't devolve in religious and ideological semantic debate full of drama.
     
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  3. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    Neoshaman, you have already surpassed my expectations for how I thought the conversation would go.

    I think my view of an RPG was deeply skewed by the games that I first played. I was spoiled by Chrono Trigger in particular. I played everything that I could get my hands on, but had the best experience with JRPGs and their linear story lines.

    I am attempting a simple action RPG because I think an open world WRPG would be too much for me to get right.

    Any conversation here would add to add to what I am doing and at least cause me to think. I would even settle for someone complaining about the dancing NPCs in Secret of Mana.
     
  4. tedthebug

    tedthebug

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    An rpg is just a role playing game. So long as the player gets to play a role, usually restricted to being a single in game character, & develop that character in a way that they want without restriction imposed by the game then the game technically would meet that definition.

    In order for the player to play their role & immerse themselves into the characters life the game needs a story with progression that interesting choices that challenges the players moral compass, to let them explore characters that may be the opposite to how they behave in real life, or to perhaps behave in a way that they have to constrain themselves from behaving in public I.e. Using the game as a form of release.
     
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  5. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    See it's happening! peoples trying to control what RPG mean (though I did that when I call KH and zelda action aventure ;) ).

    Every game where you play a character you a play a "role", even without character you still has a "role", in sim city you are a mayor thing and do mayor stuff, in ninja gaiden you do ninja stuff and in mario you do mario stuff, ie you enact a role. I'm sure in the last of us you are totally immersed in the life of cis white male asshole (look at the ending) and his surrogate daughter.

    But is having choice in game is "role" or "self insertion" :cool: not the same thing. I would say "role" don't let you have choices else you can act "out of character" ie breaking the role!
     
  6. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @tedthebug Would you (as a player) rather see an in-game effect from your moral compass being challenged, or simply be affected yourself?

    For example: you kick a puppy in game, then townspeople get upset with you, or the townspeople do nothing and you are left to consider more puppy kicking because there is no consequence?
     
  7. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @neoshaman I think it is great. I think its more important to think about what an RPG means to you than to force it into a genre.

    Would you agree that all games that are considered an RPG focus on storytelling?
     
  8. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    If I find an exception does that count?

    I think there is many simulationist RPG that are basically glorified the sims for nerd (Mount and blade or akhalabeth), they have less "plot" than they have "settings".

    And then that's the problem of when does story start. Loose interpretation is emergent story, then tetris has emergent story complete with climax (damn i was about to die then the line finally was there I got it back to the floor!). Then people will say it need to have character, so any game with simulated character will have story, but then people will say I need "structure", then diablo will be literature it has character, and a final scene, then people will say it need good progression, then JRPG and their formula will be the next step, and people will say it need good writing and say only planescape torment has real story, then some people will say you don't need "word" to have good writing and game like limbo will be mentioned.

    So where is the goalpost, it keep moving! It cover everything!

    But we admit "plot" then no, there is RPG without plot.
     
  9. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @neoshaman Exceptions always count. I had forgotten how much I loved Diablo.

    I do like the games that tell you a "story" with the atmosphere (sound, camera angle, colors, etc). There are games with RPG elements, like GTA, that have a story, but does anyone remember it or do they spend most of their time running over prostitutes?

    What would you consider your favorite RPG?
     
  10. tedthebug

    tedthebug

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    That depends on the world setting to a large extent. Personally I wouldn't do it just for fun but if it was integral to the world/plot then I would do it as minimally as necessary, or if it was done in a fun/silly way (like kicking chickens in Fable, which was also necessary at one point to open a portal gate thing) then I would likely do it more. The decisions ideally would be integrated so well into the story that if I was immersed then I would make the decision fitting my character & the situation without even thinking about it, only afterwards would I possibly reflect on what I'd just done & how it makes me feel or think.

    Edit:
    Many games highlight who the enemy is so a large portion of that decision is taken away from you. If enemies & npc's were indistinguishable & your actions decided their reaction, & then your reputation affected how future encounters played out then that would open up a lot of possibilities around play styles.
     
  11. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @tedthebug That's really interesting. I, unfortunately, do not currently have the funding/time to give a ton of choices and effects, but I will be thinking about this.

    I do enjoy the player's actions changing the world, even if they are all scripted, like Chrono Trigger. I would like some morally ambiguous choices though, just to keep the player confused on if they are good.
     
  12. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    Moral judgement should stay out of it. If you can't judge intent, then you aren't in any position to determine morality. If you bump into a girl and she drops something, is there anything wrong with taking care of what she dropped before you check to make sure she didn't bust her ass?

    It's too easy to make these types of events have imperceptible consequences, where right and wrong are definite outcomes, yet knowing which is which is entirely dependent on the values of the developer.
     
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  13. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @RockoDyne I can see what you are saying about definite outcomes.

    Movies have definite outcomes, you can interpret them how you wish.

    But games, probably should leave things even more open and flexible, because you are supposed to play with them.
     
  14. neoshaman

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    This is a writing problem, and it's a solved problem too.

    The way to handle this is to have a delay between when the dilemma is presented and asked and the moment of choosing consequences, in between you are presented with facts and evidence along with reasoning. Ie classic discursive structure of intro, thesis, antithesis, synthesis, conclusion. Choice is made at the conclusion when all evidence as been exhausted. On the spot dilemma is very bad!

    Mass effect do it all the time, before deciding about the fate of the genophage virus (cure or not cure) you are walked through many mission that hint at the worst (they nuked their planet in a war, have warlike honor) and the best (under a strong female leader they might go back to the splendor and refinement of the artistic height they achieved prior to the war, when wisdom preveiled), said arc is also calling Mordin Solace in question in its implication in creating the virus and also show effect on turian. The geth and quarian is handle the same way, so was the space racist situation lol.

    The thing is that it allows you to have surprising and unexpected consequences as long as they follow the logic of what was establish previously (ie meaningful plot twist). In fact when bioware floundered in the ending, the indoctrination theory stepped up to create an unexpected ending that was cliche but easier to accept because well documented on events (saren thought it was doing good but was indoctrinated, mass effect 2 toss into question shepard identity and force him into alliance with a shady organization thinking he is doing the right thing, mass effect 3 + protean dlc allude to the fact that mass effect 2 was effectively indoctrinating shepard using familiar setup (bringing old friend, remaking the ship, doing favor), the illusive man end up indoctrinated despite thinking he had the upper hand .... organic vs synth was so baseless (see quarian vs geth good ending) and remove from other story arc that it felt flat and out of tone because unsupported, making the last choice meaningless even with the extended ending.

    You can watch a talk about it from bioware here
    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016328/Contrastive-Juxtaposition-Contrast-and-Context
     
  15. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @neoshaman Oh, wow, thanks for that and the homework. I think I'll be digging through that for a while! :)

    I know that different people have a different view of Mass Effect, but I think they did a great job at telling their story.
     
  16. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    There I didn't talk from an audience perspective, Mickeal Bay movie are fine for what they are going to, but if you ask to rate it by writing it will be low lol, by image they are quite good.



    In order to master an art (ie going beyond taste and looking at them objectively) you need to look at how thing works together in a way you can compare and explain them. I wasn't passing a judgment on mass effect by pointing to its structural mismatch in the ending, I didn't say it was good or bad.

    If you handle it correctly plothole wouldn't be a sin for example, in isolation it might be a structural fault (as in we only look at the perspective of structure) but in reality if it allow to get an emotional punch, and you edit the scene correctly, who cares (or why 2h chrono has all travel clocked at 5mn in NY and nothing happen if it's not shown aka no traffic jam in NY!). Or else you would only enjoy

    You must not confused analysis for judgement.

    Now using analysis to support judgement is how you argue though lol Which I did for on the spot dilemma
    Do I sound too preachy now? I'm slipping into teacher mode HELP!
     
  17. dturtle1

    dturtle1

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    I love RPG in all its forms, to me it really isnt a genre by itself as almost any game can be construed to be or at least developed as an RPG. Every genre with RPG is at most an interpretation of what is meant to "role play". It is more like a "Story Game", as not all games are story games but any game can be turned into a "Story Game", look at NFS Franchise (lol), same with RPG.

    I am particularly interested in emergent, procedural-generated storylines. I nerded out like crazy when i saw the Civ5- A.I only games become a thing, not because i am super keen on TBS A.I but the potential for Procedural World building mixed with A.I to create fully themed settings where the player can tell a tighter, more focused story. Imagine being in the same building as Ghandi when he decides to drop the nuke :)
     
  18. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @neoshaman I never realized that Michael Bay could make me so very dizzy lol.
    I didn't suppose that you passed any judgment at all on Mass Effect, just stated my own opinion.

    Are you a teacher? Or do you just slide into teacher mode? :)

    @dturtle1 I'm a bit leery of procedural story telling. It does make for some unexpected story arcs, but I would rather experience someone's laboriously crafted story.
    Procedural stories seem to degenerate into a flashy Skinner Box after a while. Although, I have spent quite a few hours playing procedural games, so I did get some enjoyment from them lol.
     
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  19. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    No I'm not a teacher but I get ask if I'm one often :eek: I tend to shift into a mode where I zone out doing big data dump of principle followed by practical example :oops:

    I'm also interested in procedural story, there is no really good procedural system actually, people don't seem to care much and just expect simulation to create magically a solid story. I don't believe it's an AI problem.

    There is definite unexplored techniques in this, mostly because there is a divide between writer and technical people so there was no real breakthrough made on informed practice.

    There is also ideological barrier that shift the perception to a lower expectation therefore lower implementation ambition. You never see top down generator that work from theme to structure to prose. I'm working on that except prose.

    The problem is that good story writing is often confused with good prose, they are part of the overall problem but actually cover separate sub problematic. And prose is what hinder progress in procedural story by stealing the focus :(
     
  20. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @neoshaman I would take the suggestion that you are a teacher as flattery. :)

    I think the best results from procedural generation still need an actual human to go through them and smooth things out.

    At one time I was using perlin noise to make voxel maps. I eventually got to a point where it didn't look like an alien landscape, but I always felt the need to go through and adjust things.

    I don't expect that you could plug in Aristotle's principals into an algorithm and produce a flawless story. The future would be bleak for writers if AI advances that far lol.
     
  21. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    That's what I'm saying about creative mind vs technical people divide :D

    The way you talk about procedural generation clue me that you don't understand the basic principle behind the creative part and manipulation of its elements! So you find a technical equivalent like "perlin noise" as if it should had a magic quality in itself.

    I would say that technical people think about structures (recurrent pattern of association) while creative people think about composition (arrangement of elements to convey something), it's a nuance. So when creative mind look at technical tool they don't see something being conveyed, when technical mind look at creative stuff they see "magic" ie selected structure through a process they don't understand. But composition and structure are only different perspective on the same problem.

    The truth is that there is a trap. Ie that procedural generation must please human first, ie they are extension of the human experience. It mean it's a "dictionary problem" not a structure one. If you look at most procedural tools, they get attention because they "looks like" rather than "describe".

    And that's the missing piece, when trying to make an alien landscape, you try to find parameters that "looks like" this concept, you don't take the time to "describe" alien landscape first as a concept (ie build a dictionary) before letting the generator find an implementation of that concept. In short the problem isn't technical, it's "linguistic" (or semantic encoding), you must teach the concept to use first for a procedural generator to work in a human pleasing way, you have to build a dictionary.

    That's not the only step, in order to use the dictionary, you also need "intent", ie something to convey, "to say", an expression. Most procedural generation implementation are implicitly about something "landscape" for example, never explicitly. Because it's not explicit you can't have logic that manipulate it to create intentional generation that aren't hardcoded in the assumption of the basic parameter. Which also beg the question, what is the composition of intent, can we generated them? :D

    Personally I operate on a small description of intent that use a simplified version of maslow's ladder/pyramid to control story. After all, all story are about human need, and I reduce it to 3 master need: survival, belonging and aspiration. They are the axis to combine to create all story theme. For example man vs gods is aspiration (defying the gods) or survival (avoiding the wrath). Now I can step through intent to composition and have something that make sense, yet is diverse enough.
     
  22. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    A solved problem? In Mass Effect? If you put a decision at the end of entire story arcs, of course it's going to be well thought out. The rest of the time though they just give you a stupid red or blue option, while you're only left to decide which of the two hues of asshole you want to be. Dragon Age at least had some overall thought put into the multiple shades of piss you could be.

    They make subplots that expound upon a one dimensional theme, where at the end you're told to pick a side in what is now an internet argument that has long since descended into strawmen. It all ends in binary options that do little if anything to the gameplay in the long run, mostly since it's a clear, balanced choice. It's classic design by committee, where everything is compartmentalized well enough so that everyone works on their assigned thing without stepping on the toes of others.

    The issue of consequence isn't even exclusively a writing problem. The issues of perceivable consequences are fundamental to all of game design, not to mention that acceptably breaking perceptibility is pure black magic in design that I don't think has really been tackled well.
     
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  23. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    You are confusing technique and implementation. Plus you lump all sequences of a games, each having its own quality to an overall feeling. That's not conducive to rational analysis and helping mastery of the craft at all.

    But actually in mass effect many sub arc are handled well. To answer the problem of consequence, consider the genophage arc, the choice is about bigger moral consideration (should we deprive a race his right to pocreate on the assumption they could rampage the universe), consequence is only tangential, they could make a follow up that validate or not that choice, it wouldn't matter. If you are seeing consequence as a simple reward system, it bound to be broken because you are tempt to game the system, if you make the choice about bigger purpose and moral stance diffuse in the whole arc (ie what is teh story about) consequence is more easily accepted. Most game don't follow up with the actual implication and focus on cheap shot like kill baby hitler.

    edit:
    What I mean is that consequences should be about the meaning of the story (ie player expression, defining his purpose) rather than "plot" (ie random thing happen, if it's optimization then it's not a choice, it remove purpose from the player), you want the player to BE rather than just DO. The end of mass effect failed because of that, and why the indoctrination was more compelling (it give purpose to the lack of choice, ie it told something about the player's expression and the whole story), It's worth noting they had space chtullu so a space lovecraft interpretation works.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  24. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    It doesn't matter what aspect of gameplay it's in, if you don't feel the consequence, then you haven't made a choice. It doesn't matter if it's using a potion or killing off a character, the player has to adjust their play for it to mean anything. No one would care if Sephiroth killed Cait Sith, but instead he has to kill someone useful, someone you would have actually kept thinking about in play.

    Consequence is the third act. It's the resolution. The conflict is over, so now what happens? It's just as important for the experience as any other part of a game, and should be a part of gameplay (because it already is).
     
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  25. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Do you even design? RPG has a fairly standard definition in game terminology.

    An RPG is a game where the focus is on taking the role of a specific character, or sometimes a small party of specific characters. The focus is on living the lives, making the decisions, and fighting the battles of the main character.

    RPG mechanics refers to the systems of stats, character progression and loot popularised by early RPGs like dungeons and dragons.

    Weirdly enough an RPG does not have to have RPG mechanics, and having RPG mechanics does not make a game an RPG. Go figure.

    If you can't accept and use the standard terms used in the industry, you have little business talking game design.
     
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  26. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    It was rhetorical question BTW
    I'm alluding to the fact that different person will have different priority to class a game as rpg or not. I have seen people with 30 years experience in teh industry calling fallout 3 a FPS, and literally it is.

    I worked in the industry so there is that, I was employed as a game designer, so there is that too. Dogmatism is not the way you approach design anyway, I know and addressed those points early on, I could add another wall of text about the historical evolution (from wargame to the first dnd and talking about larp) but that would have been pointless.

    Having a critical perspective on terms is precisely what makes a good game designer. A designer looks at structures and experiences to apply them when needed or create new one when necessary. A designer is analytic, it deconstruct to reconstruct. It also look at context.

    Genre and convention are just shorthand for a practical pattern, sometimes they don't apply or barely. RPG are complex, literally, as in they are an ensemble of smaller elements, which make them more susceptible to fuzzy definition. There is so many form and culture of RPG and its elements are now so integrated in different type of product that there is no more clear cut useful definition.

    BUT I WARNED THIS CONVERSATION WOULD GO INTO ATTACK because semantic :eek: Let's not confuse the tradition with the concept. A lot of people don't like we challenge the tradition or take a hard look into it.

    The new call of duty has dragon by the way, is it a rpg yet?
     
  27. Kiwasi

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    Because you are insisting on confusing the definitions. You brought up Tetris and Sim City, which are both definitely not RPG games. The definition of RPG is wide, and it encompasses a lot of different games. There are some grey areas and games that are difficult to classify. But its not an unsolvable problem, as you insist on making it.

    There is nothing wrong with challenging traditional definitions. But there is also significant value in accepting and using common language.

    Dragon's have absolutely nothing to do with if a game is RPG or not. I haven't played COD in a while. However normally the COD games are not considered RPGs. The focus is not on taking the role of a specific character. The story line tends to be pretty much 'on rails'. There is no focus on decisions the character must make.
     
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  28. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    I didn't brought sim city for the definition of RPG but to explore what are the extent of the terms used in the definition (ie what role mean and what are its boundaries).

    I'm not saying it's unsolvable, I'm saying a definite definition is pointless. Now if we set the cultural boundaries, we can have a picture to communicate, but only as a prototype definition rather than a clear cut one. By prototype I mean that there is an archetype we can modify, remove or add element to encode a new instance (for example, skyrim is a rpg in first person without party management).

    There is no confusion. I'm pointing at the edge cases. Role by itself don't define rpg, it's too generic, it applies to many games.

    But Jrpg are on rail with no focus on decision the character must take. Are Jrpg not rpg? And there is Wrpg without character choice too! And then you confuse player choice with character choice, character make choice even in movie. In most wrpg you are not a character, you are a blank slate, it's self insertion not "role". And let's not take that some people would rather talk of "immersive sim" to class game like deus ex rather than rpg (has stats, has choices, has xp). Of course there is subtlety like you can build a character from the blank slate through self insertion, which have mechanical and philosophical implication for game design. I talk about it there https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=29474.0

    In fact the lack of role (in tabletop sense) in crpg, has been an ongoing debate about the solution since the inception of crpg. Tabletop purist will say it's not possible to support mechanically because you need full language support and efficient AI rather than branching dialogue (which is why shroud of the avatar is using a text parser, to get closer to that ideal) you play only what the designer already made, no improvisation.

    What I alluded to is that RPG definition depend on which caste of rpg you suscribe too. RPG definition wars is as old as the genre. Tabletop rpg player say crpg aren't rpg, the world and story are fixed and there is no dm. Wrpg say jrpg is not rpg, hardcore say pokemon is no rpg, etc ... within or outside teh industry, it happen all the time, metaphoric blood everywhere :eek:

    I'm saying basically the definition is pointless because it depend on your affiliation, doing so blind you from analyzing the genre correctly, and generally prevent civil discussion between faction. In fact the purpose of this discourse was to preemptively kill any semantic discussion by making a panorama of all implications, showing they are essentially pointless, it's all factions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  29. LMan

    LMan

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    I recommend Witcher 3- great example of a traditional RPG form done really really well.

    A misconception I held until recently was that narrative-driven games require a complex narrative in order to keep the player engaged- fact is, theming trumps narrative complexity. People resonate with themes, not a series of events. The actual story beats provide a context to communicate the themes.

    a second lesson is that characters are everything in a narrative. People will sit through the worst episodes of a tv show to see what happens to characters that they are invested in. Having characters that players can resonate with, project onto, and get invested in is much better than trying to place uninteresting characters in interesting situations.
     
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  30. Feeble1

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    @neoshaman You're most likely right about creative/technical minds. I like math, but have a hard time setting up a pleasant scene lol.

    @LMan I have definitely finished a grueling game or tv show just to find out what happened to the characters.
     
  31. Marrt

    Marrt

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    @Feeble1
    I would just skip the semantic wars on term definitions. Malleable terms like "RPG" are there to categorize and are only rough guide to what is actually there (comparable to music categories). Just think about how any game nowadays that has something random in it instantly gets the tag "roguelike"

    You mentioned Fable and Kingdom Hearts so lets focus more on this. So you are going to make a game that is:
    - 3D
    - Battle focused
    - Real-time-combat only
    - A single playable character, maybe npc followers
    - Some kind of character progression system
    - Linear story progression

    If this is correct it sounds good to me, i love those games. But lets talk about the combat system you have in mind because this is where such games shine or fall for me:
    You enter a room containing foes, what happens, what can you do?
     
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  32. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @Marrt Sounds good to me lol.

    It is all of those things that you list. I'm currently relying heavily on dialog to tell the story, but I intend to put in a few cut-scenes eventually.

    My game initially had a combat system very much like Vagrant Story, but a few testers complained about the complexity and said that it simply wasn't fun. So, it has been changed to a real time combat system.

    Right now, you enter a room containing foes, you can try to run past them or run up and smack them. There is also a crossbow to shoot enemies from afar, but seems a bit overpowered just now.

    Also, your followers will attack the enemies that you attack. So it is possible to smack an enemy, run away, and have your follower do the killing for you. That frees you up to do some healing or unleash your magic on the enemy.

    It is all subject to change, but that is how it stands now.
     
  33. Marrt

    Marrt

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    Balancing ranged in a mixed melee/ranged game is always hard. In most games that feature ranged classes, the class is overpowered or at least cheesy. I am myself struggling with this problem, possible balancing mechanisms are:
    • capped range: reasonable but it feels kinda bad when your spell fizzles because the enemy is just an arms length out of range
    • softcapped range: =damage falloff; balanced but unsatisfying because of hardly predictable results for greater ranges.
    • very low damage: which either makes ranged useless, unfun or spammy
    • limited ammo supply: nobody likes to use those precious finite resources
    • small regaining ammo pool: kind of separate inherent mana-supply for each ranged entity allowing burst usage; very likeable but why not kite until the pool is regained or switch your gun? kiting isn't fun.
    • small event based ammo pool: e.g. at the end of combat ammo is restored, does not fit every game
    • decreasing effect on spam: i think the new arkham asylum uses this on the baterang, if you use only it, its damage becomes zero until you used something else
    • cooldown: use it to much in short time and you are penalized by a cooldown until you can use it again (implemented by the game "crosscode"), has the same problem as regaining ammo pool, why not just kite in the meantime?
    • soft-cooldown: can be spammed but is only fully potent after a certain time of not being used; this reduces the ability to deal burst damage
    • disadvantage: ranged usage comes with disadvantages being rooted or having reduced armor during usage... yeah, no one likes those.
    • usage requirement: The usage requirements balance the entity, e.g. longer charge-up time or easy to miss, balancing with this may make ranged nonviable in certain cases or if you want pvp
    The only game in my mind that really achieved a satisfying ranged balance: Hyper Light Drifter: You only get ammo from successful melee attacks. Although it makes no real world sense, gameplay-wise it was perfect (i know, shotgun is imba but it got nerfed recently)
    But this is an instance of small event based ammo pool and may not suit your game so well as it did HLD.

    What i currently employ for ranged balancing:
    Is a kind of mixture madness, since i have different spells as ranged mechanic i use different balancing mechanics for different spells, the player may decide which he can stand best:
    SmallFireballSpell: softcapped range
    HitscanRaySpell: soft-cooldown
    ContinuousBeamSpell: disadvantage(movement)
    StickyMineSpell: capped range
    SeekingMissileSpell: usage requirement(charge-up)
    MeteorSpell: usage requirement(easy to miss)

    I don't have element based damage/resistances, so a 30dmg fire spell is as good as an 30dmg ice spell (apart from its archetypical properties like travel speed and range)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
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  34. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @Marrt I hadn't thought about limiting ammo. That might be something worth looking into. I have really been relying on a cooldown (reloading time).

    What sort of game are you working on?
     
  35. Marrt

    Marrt

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    An action rpg, i have a gif of a recent build already somewhere in this forum... there it is:


    It is a mobile action-rpg with a different approach on touch input.
    -and by different i mean that i have no idea if people will like it. But i am convinced that this input scheme is better than those of every mobile-touch-top-down-action-rpg i have downloaded/bought until now (should be like 50)

    We named it "Brightheart" and it is a tale about the girl in the upper image (Aki), a bright mass of energetic matter called Brightheart and 7 rogue mage bosses that will kill you on sight. It should feel a bit like Hyper Light Drifter with spells rather than guns, higher integer stats for damage/health and randomized levels. The focus lies on real-time-combat -> the pic already reveals pretty much what we have in mind, but tweaking speeds and balancing everything will be a huge challenge.

    We decided to make it 2D (or at least pseudo 2D in our case) because directions and distances can be shown very clear and to the point. In 3D-Mobile-Top-Down games the perspective messes with some things
    -in lower half things are too big and can be hard to track
    -in upper they are right or to small
    -inputs may transform to different angles based on camera tilt if not taken care of
    -if taken care of it can be misleading to some playes
    Compensations for above problems like reducing the fieldOfView, zooming out very far or going orthogonal do not appeal to us.
    Also, the 2D-artwork creation is feasible for a single person.

    We plan to have a public teaser build at the beginning of next year and then we will decide on how to proceed based on the feedback from the public.
     
  36. Feeble1

    Feeble1

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    @Marrt Wow, looks fast-paced and fun. It certainly seems to have a Hyper Light Drifter feel.

    I think you are further along than I am and I look forward to your teaser.
     
  37. dturtle1

    dturtle1

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    Jun 7, 2016
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    @Marrt Good luck with your game man, if you nail touch controls for ARPG that would be pretty cool.

    Do you really think "kiting" is un-fun ? To me, coming from being a PC Gamer kiting with an element of risk is part of the fun of playing a ranged character, (hell i kite with melee too, when i can :))Kiting is only cheesy when they is no risk against the player and most games have enemy abilities that help provide this. You can only pew-pew zombies for so long, at some stage you going to fight chargers, AoE Spellcasters, swarmers etc. Standing there being un-killable in Melee is just as cheesy as kiting and being unable to be hit.

    I enjoy both Ranged and Melee Combat but either way they are squishy, hell even my WoW tank was relatively squishy (Paladin) :)
     
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  38. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Borderline arpg, but I advise anyone to play ninja gaiden on the ds to see a perfected touchscreen action game, no game has reach this level of control so far. I'm thinking o adapting some aspect to mice+kb
     
  39. Marrt

    Marrt

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    If you consider it kiting if you back off for one or two seconds i fully agree, that is fun. Above i am talking more about kiting in the sense of "i have to kite only because my weapon needs >4s to be ready again"

    Well, judging from the video below i would call this a stylus-touch game since you would not be able to play it so seamlessly without a stylus. I would not want to carry a stylus just for a game on my phone and regardless of that the smartphone stylus pens have to have a broader tip that occlude the viewport (only a few phones can be used with a pointy DS-style-stylus). I like it, the touch input is spot on, but the implementation fits only the DS+it's stylus in my opinion


    How far along are you, you said "Right now, you enter a room containing foes, you can try to run past them or run up and smack them." but that says nothing of the combat, can you block? Can enemies block? Are you stationary when attacking? Are you propelled a step into the attack-direction with every attack? How do melee-range and subject-collider-sizes compare, and how fast can you move in order to get in or out of effective ranges.
    So basically, how is combat? Or to state it more general: the transient topology of game objects, their states and their interactions
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016