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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by adshead, Aug 8, 2007.
i believe the formal definition of someone who just fights to be right on forums is a troll
A troll actually should instigate things, this is just being stubborn.
GNU/Linux is only an accurate name if you use the Linux Kernel and GNU packages, nothing else. Why? Because desktop Linux is composed of thousands of non-GNU packages and you would therefore have to include all of them in the name. Like I said, GNU/Linux is just a way for Stallman to spread his propaganda.
If you must use the name GNU/Linux at least use it where it applies, the core of the operating system.
I still have no idea where you came up with the idea that I said it would be possible to port Android unity to desktop Linux. I would appreciate it if you would point out where I said that.
Porting the Unity webplayer to Linux really is as simple as I have been saying, it's just not good business. The desktop Linux market share is too small to make it economical.
I thought this was already a flamewar?
What you say is true about how Linux is composed(I don't believe in that Stallman propaganda thing though). However being a senior year CS major I was just sharing the knowledge that I had learned this past spring in my Operating Systems class and how us computing professionals in my college are taught to understand all of the terms and proper usage of them. This is probably where our disagreement started with different definitions.
Either way, I hope my points are understood as to why Linux is a difficult platform for Unity to enter and why it is not economical for the Unity team to venture there yet. And I say yet as there is always the possibility of making a web player/editor in the future. I am sorry if my posts went off topic at any point. I was only attempting to further explain the complexities of hardware software and OS's that tie the two together.
I do understand your points and most of them are valid, I was just trying to point out (and I did it poorly) that the graphics and audio systems used on Mac/Windows are supported on Linux.
Please forgive my trolling/flaming.
orly? dam.....dont let me get in the way then
I've noticed that some guys got unity to work in WINE with firefox or other browser. Can you please explain me how to do that, i installed but after app is loaded nothing can be seen
1. Navigate the kickasstorrents.com
2. Search for Windows XP torrent
3. download and run in uTorrent
4. Put on disk and install.
Er... did I just say that?
Let me redo it.
1. Navigate to Best Buy
2. Search throughout the isles for the software department
3. Find the windows xp/vista/osx/win7 cd
4. Buy and insert in computer.
Linux is better. Not used, but it is better.
The reason they want the webplayer is because they don't want to use windows or mac. Don't you think before you post?
No offense, but you are not exactly putting much quality in your posts are you?
ugh, yeah I know. I'm really tired right now...
Anyhow, it would take a team to remake that engine. Why would they be working on a linux version when they have osx AND windows to worry about?
That has been stated many many times in many different ways . In fact, you just summed up the whole topic.
But like I said a few pages earlier, due to some thing with chrome browser, linux should soon be able to play unity web content soon.
Hello I'am pretty certain Unity is DX9,OpenGL, I have heard many comments that its possible to run games like COD4 and can work with Tweaking with varing results.
Personally got good results with playonlinux
and the point is try getting standalone working
first, playing with plugins in Chrome is a wait see thing.
Maybe you know all this..
I know from experience that Stalker SoC, and host of other games do in fact work
Most of these games downgrade into Direct Call hooks in DX8 or use GL, wine for that matter replaces many DX9 calls with DX8 from my limited understanding on any of this.
In theory, everything that is supported in DirectX shaders should have an OpenGL equivalent, or at least, we should be able to string some operations together to get the same effect. That is our goal, at least.
Just like with everything else in WineD3D, we are basically implementing a driver for MS Direct3D that sits on top of OpenGL.
Actually using Chrome for Linux as a base, the Unity team could create a desktop 'webplayer' (effectively creating a standalone version) using the openSource Chrome base couldn't they? Then we could compile games for Linux as it is really just running through the chrome API. I guess then you would still have the possible issues of different chrome bases for different Linux distros? I would imagine that Google wrapped it all into one. Perhaps through chrome and Google's efforts a Linux player will be born? Of course, feasibility and economical return would need to be considered for such a small market.
You are so clever ha, thanks for advice!
Thanks for normal explanation. And i'll continue waiting for that.
But until that is done, if you can help me get unity webplayer under wine would be great.
I've an alternative perhaps: perhaps if enough interesting stuff ignores linux due to these multi-bases and the over effort required to support them, they realize that if they want to become an interesting desktop platform, they have to work together, not against each other.
Cause right now they don't want to understand that being the minority and then playing "group against group" in this minority as if we were in high school won't get you anywhere, especially not to a broader audience.
Large rewards often come with a large risk. I think whats he's saying is, you can either get the ball rolling or help the others push it back up the hill here. Once you get the ball rolling and major game releases show up on Linux, now people on the verge of switching will, or people who dual boot, will now also buy a Linux version. Someone has to be the pioneers, and it could be you, or you can watch someone else grab the prize. You got competition riding up on you, this isn't a wait 4 years and see what happens kinda deal. Technology moves fast, theres no time to move slow. If you're gonna do something, do it, if your not, don't.
Just came upon this thread, and registered to post on it simply because linux support is the only reason I haven't been working with unity.
I am currently considering buying a license so that I can produce an android game using Unity but seriously to say that linux users do not compose a large enough number of casual gamers is like saying that swimmers are not casual drinkers of water. Linux users by their definition are computer addicts. They spend most of their time online trying out new things.
We as game devs cannot afford to ignore any unique part of the game market. We need every person who can speak about how cool our games are to be able to play it, talk about it.. etc.
So while you guys have deemed that a specific market segment is beneath you those same people you claim are not worthy of support area also some of the biggest evangelists when it comes to something new.
Just my 2 cents but I thought it was worth saying.
I don't know, sure it would be nice if ever platform would be supported but i really don't know how relevant that market in reality is. The OSX market for sure is quite a big chunk for an Indie game developer but Linux? Most relevant systems still ship with Windows or OSX beeing installed and i don't see this drastically changing in the near future. I think only a minority goes through the process of installing a additional Linux on their system. The best chances Linux has is by supporting some new platforms, kind of like Android did/does/will do. If you're not coming from the low cost corner than Linux still is a very special minded thing.
Maybe you should bug the Minecraft developer to get some up to date information about the percentage of Linux users, at least on the web.
Just a quick note showing my interest in a Linux client.
as for the market penetration etc.. it's irrelevant, because if nothing changes, the market doesn't change. A vicious circle.
Too many software developers are only thinking in a vicious circle reasoning, not advancing to change it.
E.g. GNU/Linux support has no huge market penetration on the desktop = risky development investment to support it.
But.. if software companies WOULD support this platform, others will follow, and thus the risk reduces significantly over time.
Secondly to that, endusers (the licensees) want support for this platform, thus there is a huge potential in sales. Making it happen will increase income for that company supporting it, even when investing on a not known foundation (again, based on market penetration schemes)
Thirdly, many developers have the above mentioned excuse not to support it, while the truth is that one or all of these are into play aswell:
1) they have not the knowlegde about that other operating system, to program for it, 2) have quite a good deal with the developers of the other os's (e.g. MS), 3) are afraid of changing their perpectives (they are all brainwashed by a certain OS their whole career).
This is expressed by FUD spreading, without actually knowing what they are talking about.
with google's native client there won't be the need for a special linux version. it's operating system and browser independent. in the future even cpu architecture independent. i hope it will mature quickly.
nothing is better than native.
I would love to see Unity on Linux. I use OS X, but I bought my mom a Linux-based netbook. I will probably end up having a Linux computer (along with an OS X one) too.
Although it doesn't affect me directly, I still think Linux support would be awesome for those people who do use it.
Also, I didn't see anyone mention that Android isn't just different from Linux because it's got a different code base, but also because all applications are written entirely in Java* (well, Dalvik, but close enough). Most Linux GUI programs are written in native C++ code. I'm not a developer, but I do know enough to know that it is hardly simple to port Java to C++, making this argument "if it's on Android, it could be on Linux" not so strong.
Like I said, I'd really like this to be on Linux. But I feel like it's been made exceedingly clear that it's just not going to happen right now. So instead of trying to convince them [the Unity team] to port to Linux, why not work on improving Unity support in Wine yourself?
* Well, the NDK doesn't seem to be very useful anyway.
For those interested, if you weren't aware or haven't done so already, cast your vote for Linux support:
I play a lot of online games on Kongregate using linux. I'm also a java developer and have (as most developers) some asperations of doing some indie game creation. I looked into the Unity challenge and at first thought this would be a great way to get together with some of my geek friends and come up with something. I used to dual boot windows, but it turns out that windows didn't like me changing partition sizes and did something to my MBR that screwed up my linux install. Fortunately it didn't get my home partition, so after that, Windows was no more. Point is, my main machine is linux. I'm not going to install Unity on my wife's computer to play / create games. I'm sad that I won't be able to play some of the newer games on Kongregate. I'll probably go back to playing around with haXe / Flash.
My observations about Windows / Linux:
Windows works great out of the box and is broken within a few weeks.
Linux is broken out of the box and after headaches is fixed in a few weeks. Difference is, I don't have to keep fixing Linux.
Wish I could justify the extra expense of Apple / Mac products. I'm a hungry mid-level programmer supporting a family of 7. Cheap PCs with linux are my bread and butter for now.
I have found that no major operating system fits my needs. I like Linux the most but miss Windows huge software base. I need my Adobe CS software. Macs, eh, tried it, but not my computing style. Thank god I know enough about Windows to keep it fine tuned and running well, for about a year, then Windows, generally needs reinstalled to get its speed back. Supposedly all because of the registry system(condition called bit-rot). Oh well. Maybe one day, Linux will become my main machine, but for now Windows must be it as I need my software.
I think the argument that Linux isn't a reasonable market isn't valid anymore.
I've seen a number of games doing pretty well on Linux lately and as the latest Humble Bundle #2 (WikiLeaks) proofed, it was as a big market as the Mac was.
Thanks for posting this graph; I wanted to do it too, since it's a good overview of the current situation.
However, it's not entirely reliable; some more complete stats would be required to get a more accurate snapshot of that situation; the actual number of purchases per platform is missing. We only get the average purchase amount (showing that the graph is potentially inflated towards linux due to the higher average donation), and a fancy graph without numbers.
This also reminded me that because Unity doesn't support linux, it rules out Unity developers from eventually seeing a successful indie game make it to the Bundle unless they switch it to another engine for that sole purpose (Indie Bundle games seem to require support for PC/Mac/Linux out of the box).
Yep, but is shows a trend which seems to be reasonable taking a few other statements i got regarding their sales into account as well.
I suspect chances exist that we'll see Linux player support in the V3 product cycle.
Beside of this there exists a couple of middleware which is able to compile for Win/OSX/Linux already.
I'm really suprised Unity Technologies is so adverse to creating a Linux Player, or even a standalone build. If you want to support the web theres no argument not to.
When thinking about it, it somehow would feel weird having not the editor available on Linux from a start as well, so i more guess when it will be ready it will be both.
There is so much incorrect information in this post that it's not even worth responding to.
But the most fundamental right part is that there is a significantly larger, standardized android base than there ever will be a linux desktop base (linux still has primarily server / console installations, the desktop share is a minority. iOS / Android took a few months from start to exceed the webusage share of linux, which speaks for itself).
And already Android is a troublesome platform due to the hardware fragmentation that costs quite some effort from UT and the devs themself to support. But compared to real Linux support across distributions, kernel versions (and incompatibilities), 32bit vs 64bit library incompatibilities / non working problems (as linux is the only os without proper 32bit emulation support without manual dual library installs) its still a piece of cake to walk while sleeping.
As its advocates are so fond of pointing out: Linux is not an operating system. It's a kernel!
If support for a Linux-based operating system is on the cards for Unity, it's far more likely that it'll only be officially supported on a small number of distros, with no generic "Linux" offering.
From a support standpoint, supporting every possible permutation of a Linux-based OS is simply not feasible. Even the mighty Red Hat only support their own distros.
The ball isn't in UT's court. UT will support any platform, as long as it is financially viable. Adding support for a new platform costs money: you have to hire programmers, create documentation, and train your support people. All these are ongoing costs, too.
If the likes of Ubuntu and Red Hat want a Unity webplayer—even the complete editor suite—in their distros, they're more than welcome to pay for it. Last time I looked, UT wasn't a registered charity.
I don't particularly care if there's ever a Unity player for Linux, it will be replaced by something more useful before it's ever missed. The point is that there is a massive amount of misinformation being spread about Linux as an OS and as a desktop platform.
Actually 3D engines based on HTML5 Canvas and WebGl are maturing quite quickly:
If Unity can live without the linux community, I guess we'll just have to make a world where we don't need unity.
why is it that the blender linux builds work without any problems on any linux distribution? this fragmentation stuff is mostly FUD.
anyways... the only thing we need is that google finishes the work on native client. it kind of is a cross-platform platform. but in my opinion native client also is a bit of a danger to unity. it will make it much easier to compete in the cross-platform department for other engines.
I've bumped into the Unity player a few times, on various websites, most recently whilst trying to get Battlestar Galactica running on scyfygames.com
I run Linux, I play games. I just don't play these games.
It's sad, But no great loss. There are many games that I can't play because my chosen OS is not supported. I just don't play them. At all.
I'm sure given time, As more and more people get their PC's with linux either preinstalled, or choose to avoid Microsoft and switch to Linux for whatever reason (Vista anyone?) More and more people will cease playing games that don't support Linux. As that happens people will start to notice that their wallets are looking slimmer. Then it's a game of catchup. That's fine. I don't see how this is an issue. None of the Unity games have enough draw for me to get all upset about it.
I'm way more upset my hardware can't handle Assassins creed.
What I'm trying to say here, is I fully understand not supporting Linux from a monetary standpoint. If you aren't gonna make money from it (Or you're going to LOSE money.) Then why waste the time? Makes perfect sense. Just be aware that that goes both ways. If I'm not going to be able to use your product, don't be surprised if I just don't bother. I'm not avoiding it on principle or missing out on it's amazingness. I just can't warrant spending 300 bucks to get a new OS that I won't use so I can play web games. Especially web games that I can probably find equivalents of in software that does support me and mine.
Your Point Of View is fine, I support your decision. I just hope to hell that one day Linux will expand far enough to make you change your mind, and that by then someone else hasn't come along and stolen your market base from under you.
That said, I'd really like to play Battlestar Galactica...
Thank you for your enlightening contribution. This post has almost no info worth responding to, but i did what i could with it
You have to get your facts straight. Many polls and studies on OS market share have Linux on more systems whether laptops or PC's then Apple has for market share with Mac OS X. That is a fact. As it is also a fact that all Mac OS X is, is Free BSD with a custom kernel known as a MACH style kernel and GUI. Apple should not be able to sell it and hinder the free adoption of the BSD components as it does because it is in violation of the licensing the original BSD code is released under.
3D in Linux is far more stable then you claim. So much so that Windows based games that run on Wine tend to run better then on Windows itself. OpenGL and GLX are 3d rendering engines, and less resource hungry on Linux then OpenGL applications on Windows or Mac OS X. I have been using Linux now for well over a decade and a half now and have seen how much better it works then Windows and Mac OS X, especially stability wise, and hate when people talk about it who are obviously clueless, like here.
Here is an example of this being clueless. AMD's graphics drivers for Linux are basically the same drivers as those for Mac OS X. So much so, that quartz API acceleration calls will work with them. I have proven this with Myth TV using the Mac OS X quartz settings under Linux. BSD being Unix and Linux are very similar and compatible animals. Where Unity has been designed for Mac OS X, it would be relatively easy to port it to Linux. But being a non "commercial" OS, there is no way you will port Unity to Linux, just admit it instead of making excuses because that is what you are doing!
You are making claims about Linux that have not been based on any facts except those from it's infancy as an OS.
Just because you waste your money on Windows, which is a hacked up and highly modified version of early Max OS that Gates stole from Apple's first Mac prototypes or pay for Mac OS X when under the BSD license everything that makes it what it is minus the MACH kernel and GUI are free you are the one who needs to get a clue. Maybe your client sells crap and that is why Linux users haven't sunk large amounts of money on their site.
Before you make comments about Linux users look at Windows users. The majority of Windows PC's, laptops, netbooks, and the rest are running pirated copies of Windows, especially since 7 came out where basic is a complete sham and joke. Windows is the OS of pirates! Almost every single case of piracy that has been prosecuted around the world has involved a computer running Windows. Most Windows users don't pay for a any commercial software, they just download it with cracks and serial keys for free.
Too much caffiene? Pre Testosterone Release Syndrome (PTRS)? They got an app for that
And you might want to check the date of the post you quoted. (The references to "OTEE"—which is what Unity Technologies used to be called some time ago—should have been clue enough.)
Also, OS X is no longer just a BSD Mach variant. The kernel is now a hybrid variation. Also, FreeBSD != OpenBSD—there's a reason for the differentiation as FreeBSD is NOT released under a license as draconian as the GPL series, so no, Apple aren't "violating" a damned thing. (In case you weren't aware, Apple do contribute to Open Source projects. Google "Darwin" and "WebKit", among others.
And those are just the mistakes in your first paragraph. I can't be bothered to proofread the rest; I prefer to charge for that service.
So: 9/10 for enthusiasm, but 3/10 for accuracy and 0/10 of observation.
Have you seen Arstechnica's article concerning the Humble Bundle and how supporting Linux was an important part of their success? Analysis of the humble bundle sales numbers by DIYGamer found that interest in Linux gaming is far greater than what most people would assume.
Just doing my part to encourage Linux support.
Uh oh.. Spaghettios
Vectrex, it seems you've got us on this one
We are in fact working on Linux support to be released initially as a preview feature. We have no set release date yet.
Sorry if I ruined the surprise and I hope I didn't get anyone fired
No, of course not. It doesn't seem like we were making much effort to hide it, now does it?