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Unity Lightweight Render Pipeline is Evolving!

Discussion in 'Universal Render Pipeline' started by Tim-C, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. siggigg

    siggigg

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    Can't you just call it the "Default Rendering Pipeline"? :) The Universal bit is confusing because of overlap with what HD can do over LWRP?
     
    hippocoder likes this.
  2. GameDevCouple_I

    GameDevCouple_I

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    In the interest of security: Your not meant to post that sort of fogbugz link, it allows me / anyone accessing it to access all your fogbugz stuff including past cases. You should just provide the case number and let people navigate to it themselves. For example I can read conversations between you and unity about your personal asset store submissions, which certainly should be kept private. Please remove this link immediately in the interest of your own personal security.
     
  3. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Meh its fine but thanks for the concern :) Had nothing to hide in there I was worried about (including asset store submissions, its public knowledge I am an asset store publisher).

    These fogz bugs are always public anyway so was always aware it can be publicly accessed whenever I replied. E.G at one point I talk about access to my repository but only the QA I was speaking to has the access rights to make use of it.

    I'll take it down but I shared with full knowledge of what I was sharing :)
     
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  4. protopop

    protopop

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    I don't understand though, does LWRP/URP support deferred rendering? How can this be a replacement for the standard renderer without something so essential. Or has it been added since?

    It's a bit creepy when i read about bugs like the shadow bug above and the response that it's just not going to be fixed. That would be fine if there were parity renderers, but right now, and for quite a while, it sounds like LWRP/URP is missing a lot that works with the standard renderer.

    I hope this is all cleared up because Unity advances at such a fast pace. It's great if you are new or starting a new project from scratch, but support for legacy projects can be very problematic. I just want to spend more time making and selling games and less time fighting Unity's shifting technology so much.
     
  5. liiir1985

    liiir1985

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    Deffered Rendering is on URP's Roadmap, and currently is set for 2019.3 along with camera stacking. But delay is also possible though
     
    satchell likes this.
  6. Alan47

    Alan47

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    I guess it makes sense to use LWRP as the "baseline". Two questions come to mind though:

    1) What will happen to HDRP? Will it be merged into the Universal Render Pipeline (since it is *Universal*?)
    2) Will we see proper terrain, foliage and particle support for the Universal Render Pipeline? At the moment, those are my biggest issue with LWRP.
     
  7. elbows

    elbows

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    Universal really is just a name change for LWRP. Well LWRP has evolved at the same time, so there are new things in 7.x which is now renamed Universal, but these new features would have happened even without a name change, and do not reflect a new direction for LWRP/Universal.

    I can see why the name Universal may cause some to speculate about the future, but really there is nothing at the moment that makes me think they plan to merge everything into one pipeline. I actually hope they dont, they are very different systems, made by different development teams.
     
  8. whidzee

    whidzee

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    Is it possible to convert my project from HDRP to LWRP (Universal)?
    There doesn't seem to be a way to do this and it would be really handy as it wouldn't lock people into their render pipeline if things change in the future
     
    Lars-Steenhoff likes this.
  9. fubbi1000

    fubbi1000

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  10. SoloChristian

    SoloChristian

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    Ok so you had a Lightweight Pipeline and it finally came out of Beta. Now your scrapping it. Add to this that somehow 2019.3 is an Alpha even though 2019.2 isn't fully functional yet. I think it is fair to say that you guys need to actually sit down and just make ONE Engine and ensure that it Actually has ZERO Bugs. Then when that is done you can make a new engine for other purposes Afterwards...
     
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  11. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Frankly I think it's absurd people think it's "scrapped" or somehow broken. It's still LWRP, just with a different name. You get that, right?

    If not then I don't know what to say.
     
  12. SoloChristian

    SoloChristian

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    I have been developing for a long time and I get a project that is "All Over The Place" when I see one. Often Unity has started these trends where they Hype a feature to compete against Unreal and then nothing happens. Take Editing in VR, That project hasn't been updated in a year. In Unreal it just works. It is not like we haven't been patient as developers. We just want Unity to understand the concept of making a plan and sticking to it until it is completed. And since our income relies on things being STABLE, I don't think it is an Unreasonable request...
     
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  13. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    i fully agree.
    but have you seen any official answer in this thread?
    @Tim-C
    i guess nobody official reads it at all.
     
  14. joshcamas

    joshcamas

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    LWRP is clearly evolving and developing as it goes, which explains all the crazyness before the release - with most companies, we wouldn't see this crazyness, since they don't release any info until the project is completed.

    Now that it is out of beta, I agree that it is a bit too wonky to really be seen as stable, but it's much better now. This thread is about changing the name, nothing more. (Although that could change in the future, I imagine).

    I do wonder why officials make a thread where you can reply then don't reply to them...
     
  15. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    me too
     
  16. Stardog

    Stardog

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    URP is a good idea. I don't see what use the LWRP would have been. You can talk about performance, yet every Unity mobile game was made in the default renderer without issues, and URP will be faster than that.
     
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  17. joshcamas

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    And it essentially shows that the purpose of the URP/LWRP is replacing the built in renderer in the future, which makes sense. Beforehand it was strange, seeing how there was a new pipeline for super fancy or super lightweight programs, and if you weren't doing that then you were stuck with the built in renderer.
     
  18. newguy123

    newguy123

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    Reading the comments over on this forum, not just from this thread, but all the ones I'm watching over the past year, makes me think I'm backing the wrong horse :-( Too many moving components with too many different departments and also seems like they are not talking to each other. I haven't read the AR Foundation threads in a few weeks, but when I did it was chaos trying to get things to work with LWRP. Now that we're going "universal", it's probably even more of an issue. For my purposes, non gaming, DESIGN VISUALS, seems the place to be is Unreal. They have dedicated sections specific to my industry, proper documentation, and loads more UP TO DATE tutorials. I did enjoy my time coding with Unity, but the constant struggle to get good looking graphics going from 3ds Max and VRay converted and imported to Unity is a major pain. I'll probably lurk around the shadows here for a bit longer, hoping something will change soon. Let's hope Unite Copenhagen next month will have some awesome announcements...
     
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  19. optimise

    optimise

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    Hi @Tim-C. Just one question. Will Universal Render Pipeline be the last breaking change? I dun really want next year something evolves again and another new breaking change.
     
  20. superjayman

    superjayman

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    URP is a confusing and a misleading name!!...What is going in UNITY why can't you guys get it right from the start! ? The Standard Pipeline is naturally or should be the Universal. UNITY IS GETTING TOO FRAGMANTED!!!!!!

    Unity HAVE YOU GUYS GIVEN UP ON THE STANDARD PIPELINE???

    I've been using Unity for many many years and I can Clearly see a pattern that Unity is now on a downhill path unless you guys do a SINGLE WORKING ENGINE... Try doing a game and see all the bugs you encounter. There are critical bugs that are some over 5 years old still not fixed.

    My suggestion. DROP lwrp, DROP hdrp , focus on fixing bugs..
     
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  21. joshcamas

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    Okay, this is silly. First off, this is never going to happen. Way too much money has been invested into the SRP to just dump it to fix bugs lmfao. Secondly, the SRP is better than the standard pipeline in any other way. Of course it's still early, and thus both LWRP and HDRP don't have all of the features compared to standard, but this will change. (It may take a while, true.) In fact, SRP has many features that standard does not. (VFX / Shader Graph, the entire concept of a scriptable pipeline that allows anyone to build their own render engine in unity).

    The Standard Pipeline is eventually going to be considered the legacy pipeline. Engines evolve over time - Unity is nearly 15 years old. Should the Standard Pipeline still be the "universal pipeline" in 10 years? 20? 100? At some point things need to be upgraded, yes? The Standard pipeline is flawed in many ways, and the SRP fixes *many* of these issues.

    The reason why Unity is "fragmented" is because Unity isn't just for you, or me. It's for everyone. And everyone wants different things. Thus, an engine designed to be modular and modifiable is desirable.

    Finally, I agree that Unity is a bit buggier than most engines, sure. But developing the SRP isn't getting in the way of bug fixing, since that's an entirely different team.
     
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  22. superjayman

    superjayman

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    A bit buggier is the understatement of the century, there are literally thousands of showstopping bugs, some more then 5 years old. The documentation is an absolute joke.

    What exactly? yes it circumvents some issues because it is heavily cut down. Even HDRP, most of the 'updates' or 'enhancement' are literally years behind in current technology. Unity only changed relative physical values so users can tweak settings a little more accurately. The Shadows are ugly and cascade blending for example was in the MS DX sample 6 years ago! what a joke.

    This is fantasy, this probably sounded great in theory but it is a major blow to Unity (but good for marketing), it will be years before everything is ironed out and even then. You do realize this breaks almost all Assets on the Asset store.

    Don't forget other engines are not sitting on their A*s, by the time Unity gets everything sorted out, UE and some others such as UNIGINE will be way ahead in all respects compared to Unity.
     
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  23. Mauri

    Mauri

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    Well, feel free to move on to other engines if it hurts you too much. No one's gonna stop you.
     
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  24. liiir1985

    liiir1985

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    The longer you use an engine, the more bugs you'll encounter, that's true for every gameengine.
    It's not that Unity's buggier than any other engine, it's just, you are not using that specific engine so often and deeply than Unity. We are using UE4 simultaneously in our company for a different project, it's definitely not the case that it has less issue than unity. Sometimes you even have to hack into the UE engine code to solve a very small problem, which could be resolved in no time in Unity.
    It's not said that UE4 is worse than Unity, it's just every Engine has its own problem. You'll have some problem with unity in some areas, but with UE4 the others
    Some people would argue that UE4 is open sourced so you can fix the bug yourself. But come on, you won't have so many dedicated time for such thing and it's not easy at all to fix things without complete understanding of the engine code, the best practise is still to submit issues to EPIC and wait for the fix
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  25. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Another example we came across today that was discovered in 2017 and is marked as wont fix in favour of render pipelines :(

    https://issuetracker.unity3d.com/is...directional-light-and-having-specific-objects

    "We are currently focussing on LWRP and HDRP for shadow improvements. Since this has a workaround the effort is probably better spent elsewhere. We will of course reconsider if there is a big user ask for a fix for this."

    Not so bad in this case (if there is a workaround but not sure what that is yet) but still a bad sign of things to come especially when it shows 2 years later render pipelines are not up to par. Totally makes sense that they are not there yet, but please don't ditch the current core until render pipelines are ready to replace them!

    I don't understand Unity sometimes, they were really good about getting rid of JS, Boo etc. Gave us lots of notice of what was happening and when, why not the same process/clarity for shadows and light etc?
     
  26. superjayman

    superjayman

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    This is the typical neolithicaly incompetent answer in situations as I have pointed out. Why should I... is my answer, I have invested years into Unity due to false pretenses from Unity as have thousands of others. Also to the unfortunate new comers who have no idea as they are being lured into Unity to invest their time and effort before they realize it's too late. It's like saying to someone who depends on their job for their livelihood ' if you don't like it ... leave '
     
  27. Mauri

    Mauri

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    No offense, but your previous posts in this forum are looking (and often summarizing) like this:

    What I fail to see in most of your posts - presumably because you don't deliver any of it - is actual helpful feedback... and I doubt this will change anytime soon. So yeah, while my answer possibly was a "neolithically incompetent" one, I do think it suits best in your case.

    P.S. You really should work on your anger issues (or whatever is responsible for your constant passive aggressive replies).
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  28. joshcamas

    joshcamas

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    Yeah, fun tip: talking in caps doesn't make you more right, it makes you look more like a child. I understand being frustrated with a product, I've definitely done some of that, but this is on a different level.
     
  29. Stardog

    Stardog

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    I agree to an extent. I think not putting shader graph or vfx graph was a bad decision, because it will be a while before anyone is brave enough to commit to making anything in one of the RP's. The standard pipeline is pretty solid, and could have done with a shader graph and better fog. It will be ages before UWP is anywhere near standard, but if it is as-described on page 1, then it is what you're asking for.

    I don't think they should drop HDRP. People have always complained that Unity can't match Unreal, so a bleeding-edge pipeline is a good idea, but the problem is, will it even have all the features people want? Does the volumetric fog match current AAA games and will it be kept up to date? Will terrain ever get an advanced shader like MegaSplat, or instanced grass using jobs? If not, then what's the point of HDRP? It only just got a basic terrain-lit shader... wowww. I am making a decent-looking game, yet HDRP is a no-go zone. Surely, I should want to use it...
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
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  30. Mullan7

    Mullan7

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    I'm using LWRP and while it's missing a couple features I'm happy with it. What's not good is the amount of drastic changes after it came out of preview. Again I'm happy with it but like others have said, they could be more careful about the term "production ready"

    This post confuses me a little bit because it's described as a renaming but then a transition/upgrade process is mentioned
     
  31. protopop

    protopop

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    I think the Standard Render Pipeline is really robust. They have so many assets that are compatible for it, and it was a lot easier, presumably based on what im seeing, to make assets that are compatible with one render pipeline.

    I am pretty certain that Unity is in an arms race with Unreal over quality, which is leading to a lot of fragmentation because they are trying to beat unreal, instead of focusing on what made them so great in the first place - unmatched ease of use, flexibility and user friendliness.

    There are so many assets that increase the visual of Unity -CTS, Megasplat etc - and ones that replace functionality only available in LWRP/HDRP - like Amplify Shader in place of ShaderGraph - so that goes a good way towards making a good looking game.

    HDRP and SRP in general i think is a good idea, because it opens up a lot of new potential for performant engines. But all of this is coming at the expense of the triend and true standard render pipleine, which is the only one that really works in all areas. I mean, LWRP/URP does not even have deferred rendering, a basic staple, and i know its been mentioned that its coming, but I just dont see how we can opt for render pipelines that are missing so much basic support as replacements for the most solid one which looks like its quickly being deprecated.

    Im sorry if this sounds negative. I know unity people are working very, very hard to deliver a lot of new ideas, and a lot of them are great and future proofing and expanding the engine. I just wish it could all feel less rushed and that there was more focus on sustainability. Many people LOVE Unity for good reasons - I dint think anyone will leave the engine unless it becomes the only option to do so, so i hope we dont go there.
     
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  32. camta005

    camta005

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    Yes! The standard render pipeline with surface shaders was great for both game devs and asset devs. I can understand that it may have needed a restructure to move forward, but the SRP seems like a mistake. The SRP is more complicated to use for game devs and it's a complete nightmare for asset devs that have custom shaders in their products.
     
  33. konsic

    konsic

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    Yes, I also wanted that custom shaders from shaderforge could get worked out in SRP.
     
  34. joshcamas

    joshcamas

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    I wouldn't call the a standard pipeline overally flexible. It's essentially a black box. It can do what it can do, and nothing more. I mean, it's not bad, but SRP aims to make it much more flexible and modular.

    I think the gains of SRP will be made more clear once asset developers transition (many already have), and even start building custom SRP modules and such. That will take time of course.

    I do believe declaring LWRP as released wasn't a good idea though, seems rather strange that something that is supposedly stable is going through such chaos.

    Also, I haven't seen anything at all about the standard pipeline being deprecated at all. I mean, it's bound to happen in many years, but saying it's quickly being deprecated is a bit of a stretch. A LOT of a stretch.
     
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  35. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Its not a stretch at all, they have already officially dropped support for shadows in two bugs I found (without looking for them so there are likely more) in the standard pipeline. Posted about both in this thread.

    Shadows are a fundamentally huge part of most games visuals, if dropping support for them isn't a worrying sign for depreciation I don't know what is!
     
    sebastiansgames likes this.
  36. joshcamas

    joshcamas

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    I don't think not fixing bugs counts as deprecating, especially since they said they'll fix it if enough people want it.
     
  37. Mauri

    Mauri

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    Shadows won't get (and aren't going to be) deprecated. Neither your FogBuz issue about flickering shadows (shadowmap artifacts) in a specific case, nor the Issue Tracker entry about "Shadow map cache entry with NULL shadowmap?" spamming in the console say or indicate this.
     
  38. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Umm dropping support is depreciation :p

    Dropping support is the start of the slow death of any software related product.
     
  39. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Ok to be clear (and my post above hints at this) to me no support means a product is depreciated because it might as well be the same thing. It shows they are no longer developing it so if you find issues and the problem is in a black box as Unity is, your f*****d and left with no choice but to upgrade or move on.

    So I don't think shadows will be removed or anything like that, but if they wont fix bugs with them they might as well not be there cause they wont be usable (once you find issues).
     
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  40. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    being curious what that mystic day/night cycle script looks like i downloaded it from fogBugz:
    nothing fancy inside the script. and shadows flicker like hell in case you use slow movement (like skySpeed = 0.1) – even in LWRP 5.16.1.
    so this old "bug" is not solved at all and it might be worth opening a new ticket/thread.
     
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  41. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Thanks for that, yeah its a really horrible bug whilst doing something so simple and standard!

    A new ticket makes sense, might indeed do that.
     
  42. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    i guess it is a missing feature, not a bug.
    shadows right now may be stabilized according to the movement of the camera. they most likely will have to be stabilized according to the (delta) rotation of the light as well.
    another source which i think adds to the jittering is deltaTime. you can find a long thread here on the forum discussing using deltaTime (which may vary from frame to frame) vs. a fixed delta derived from your fps:
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/tim...afollow-and-jitter.430339/page-6#post-4835501
     
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  43. exzizt

    exzizt

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    I've been experiencing a bug in the LWRP and new PixelPerfectCamera since it was available. Please see my opened issue here. I'm really hoping this gets fixed ASAP.
     
  44. LaireonGames

    LaireonGames

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    Yeah hard to say, your chain of thought here is sound and its worth a test for sure. Have to agree with frosted in that post and debate though that a fixed delta still isn't the real solution but its good food for thought and worth a test to see if it changes the behaviour.

    Had heard of the heartbeat before but the links in that post explain the problem really well.
     
  45. superjayman

    superjayman

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    OK. You want feedback.. Like I said

    - Universal Render Pipeline Name is a BAAAAAD IDEA..Confusing and Misleading, I thought the Standard Pipeline is the Universal what ever you wanna call it now, cause it's messy..
    - Fix All The Bugs In The Standard Pipeline Before You Begin Two New Confusing Pipelines That Are Experimental And Buggy and to be honest I have not seen any evidence of either LWRP or HDRP being more productive or doing something so spectacular that you can not do in the standard pipeline.
    - Make Only One Unity... I mean come on, the meaning in it self of the word 'Unity' is not being respected.
    - Respect and Appreciate your asset store developers, don't give them 3 new engines to worry about support and still charge 30%.
    - Fix all the bugs on the new Asset Store Page..
    - Make Unity Collaborate where you will not loose all your project!!!!!!
    - Stop Trying To Play Catch Up With Unreal-Engine, and fix all the bugs.
    - ect..
    - ect..
    I can go on with bugs for a long time...

    Also, I can see the sentiment of the community in the recent posts posting bug reports, as they are frustrated and confused..

    Try Explaining Unity's new Structure to A new Unity User and I bet they will find it confusing because it's so fragmented. I mean just this post alone shows Unity are not sure what do to even with the naming convention. It would be great if Unity gave feedback that they are actually listening to the community.
     
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  46. elbows

    elbows

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    Well, I really like the scriptable render pipelines and if they changed course again now then I would probably have to change engine. So dont start assuming that your opinions about the pipeline represent the community as a whole. I love both the modern pipelines and the fact they are separate things with their own strengths and weaknesses. And I saw all the signs from Unity loud and clear years ago, that old standard render pipeline has no glorious future. So there have been no nasty shocks this year (apart from Enlighten GI going away from scriptable pipelines), everything is happening as expected for 2019 and it would be absolutely absurd if Unity changed course on this now.
     
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  47. liiir1985

    liiir1985

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    There are just too many magics inside the builtin pipeline, many things are so strangely implemented because unity had to make things to work on every platform and suit every need. The complexity will explode with such approach, that's also the reason something got buged and never got fixed, because if they fix this one, it'll for sure break something else.
    One pipeline for all platform and all needs won't go any further.
    Other engine like UE4 won't have this problem, because it will only work on high end devices, they won't need to care about low end platforms

    Actually we are happy after adopting LWRP in our project. It caused some trouble at the begining, since everything is different. But after the transition, everything is so well structured, many things a way much easier to implement in LWRP than in the builtin pipeline, also with less issue. Besides, I love the ability to control almost every aspect of the rendering pipeline, it makes many optimizations possible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  48. konsic

    konsic

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    I would still want that Unity has one lighting pipeline like UE4 does.

    Look at Warframe on switch and ps4 comparison.



    Performance optimization was on many levels but material and lighting pipeline is the same on both consoles and switch, only tweaked.
     
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  49. liiir1985

    liiir1985

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    I won't consider Switch as a low end platform... It's console! yeah It's mobile device but it's still far more performant than most of the cellphones and it's designed specificly only for gaming
     
  50. shredingskin

    shredingskin

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    SRP is Unity's way to deprecate the built-in pipeline, like it or not it has to happen (but sucks for all people that rely on it for their current and old games), and starting from scratch will probably be easier for them than updating all the baggage built-in has.
    The thing is that neither LWRP and HDRP are up to the task and are undercooked. I know that saying "preview" is a way to cover the complaint, but when basically half the engine is in "preview" is understandable that users get worried (specially when we know that Unity can stop updating many things). Or rely on store bought assets.
    Less than a year ago they showed MegaCity, today you can't run it even in the latest version. You can't even use the "hybrid renderer" if you are not using exact versions of the packages that are not up to date.
    ECS/Jobs is another way that Unity is trying to bring Unity to the present and moving away from monobehaviors, it's a radical change to the engine and how it was used before, while everything still being in "preview".
    Unity is in a time of transition to a basically new engine, you can't blame users if they feel like staying in limbo being stuck in it (or have doubts about the future of the engine when everything is in constant "preview" state).
     
    M_R_M, mleodev, transat and 9 others like this.