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Let's talk ASSETS FLIPPERS , should Asset store publishers stop including Demo scenes ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by okba28mca, Jul 19, 2017.

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Should publishers stop including demo scenes ?

  1. Yes

    9 vote(s)
    13.0%
  2. No

    56 vote(s)
    81.2%
  3. I don't know about that .

    4 vote(s)
    5.8%
  1. elbows

    elbows

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    And thats why I find the Assembly Definition Files stuff they are working on in 2017.2 so exciting (the stuff I posted about a short time ago in this thread), since it adds a great degree of flexibility to this system.
     
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  2. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Yeah it's also a measure of keeping it tidy, I'm just tired of everyone putting their crap all over it like it's important. Assets aren't important. My game is important. It cuts down on iterative compile times in editor. Quality of life thing.

    Unity are addressing this directly, so people will be able to leave a cheeky json file describing what they'd like to 'precompile' and that'll save on compile times quite a bit. But I still want it tidy, I still need it tidy. I don't want asset authors dictating where it's stuff is. Any asset that has hardcoded paths goes in the bin and is 100% worthless to me. That's why I don't use some assets. Non negotiable: I need to be able to move it!

    The other allocations thing is so that the asset doesn't choke garbage collector to death.

    These days I tend to ask for an eval first because I can't really afford to keep throwing cash in the bin because Dick Turpin decided it would be grand to leave garbage all over the highway.

    If it seems oddball how I behave with assets, it's not. Any *good* developer needs to be a total control freak with their project. That discipline really helps. You need that attention to detail across the entire project. You do care about your games, right?
     
  3. dogzerx2

    dogzerx2

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    Why would it seem oddball? Sadly most of us just wing it most of the time, and are oblivious to those things. But the more you know the better.

    Personally, for the Asset Store, I'm more focused on characters than scripts. The times I did put some script, I broke every single one of your rules. But I'm willing to keep trying even if I have to destroy everyone's project (just kidding)

    Though eventually I'd like to include a good character controller with my characters, so it's good to know the best practices possible, and have a tidy workflow.
     
  4. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Yeah but they're just rules for me. As a difficult customer that screeches while trying to breastfeed a puppy or something. You know the type in supermarkets. Anyway, a little goes a long way.

    Problem here is Unity didn't set out proper installation guidelines. They probably thought it was fine and dandy just littering the root assets folder with whatever bollocks people wanted. For me that's simply making an obfuscated joke of my careful project design :/

    Fine, I'll take my pills, even if they are carefully-ordered smarties. I'm joking.
     
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  5. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    I always try to put assets into Plugins because compilation time really starts to add up after a while, and shaving a few seconds off of it can mean the difference between continuing to pay attention to work or accidentally getting sucked into looking at cat photos on the internet for 20 minutes because I got bored waiting for the compile to finish. :oops:

    My pet peeve is when asset developers hardcode the path they expect into their code so I have to go do find and replace to make things work after I move them. No hardcoded paths! Bad devs!
     
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  6. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    It's time to rise up with pitchforks and charge violently against absolutely nothing.
     
  7. TonicMind

    TonicMind

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    I really want to tell this guy and his presumptuous attitude to beat it.
     
  8. Thrawn75

    Thrawn75

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    During the Asset Store review process, they will look for a demo scene to be included in the package and will decline the submission if none found. Looks like a stronger requirement now.
     
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  9. deroesi

    deroesi

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    this shocked you? :)
    it's perfectly normal for commercial software to include elements you are not allowed to redistribute. I see no harm for a 'geo deformer' style asset (for example) to deny the commercial use of all included example models... you'd still be allowed to use the asset itself of course "?"
     
  10. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    I think maybe Unity should force all downloaded assets to be in an "AssetStore" folder that is special and works like plugins (is compiled 1st pass only). And then boom, compilation times go down for almost everyone. I can't really think of any downsides, but maybe I'm missing something.
     
  11. TonicMind

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  12. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Unnecessary. The developer can use standard assets if they don't want to create or distribute their own. Unneeded complexity. If you purchase something from store dedicated to game development the expectation is that you can use anything you purchase. It doesn't solve any problems, and only adds potential confusion.
     
  13. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    Our game consists of 3 multiplayer maps so far, all of them are based on the demo scenes that came with them. Is it an asset flip? I personally wouldn't say so because we improve on them, use meshBaker, add light probes, add reflection probes, replace mesh colliders with primitive colliders were possible etc, etc.

    I actually talk some level design in our latest devlog, maybe it can be interesting to some

     
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  14. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

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    It honestly depends who you ask when defining "Asset Flip". Some people think every game with even one 3rd party asset is an asset flip. Some people think every game made with Unity is an asset flip. Personally, I define asset flip as any game where an asset was purchased, a game was built with no changes, and then the game was uploaded to a store (like Steam or similar). For example, if a game on Steam is identical to the UnitZ asset, then the game would be an asset flip. But some people will call any game with any assets an asset flip.
     
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  15. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Yea, the term seems to have gotten very broad. I tend to think of it as with unitz where they have bought a complete game template and published with minimal or no changes. But if you are using complete levels and cobbling it together with other assets like ufps and a few other assets, it really isn't creating a unique or interesting experience/game.
     
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  16. AndersMalmgren

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    Those people that call games an asset flip just because it contains assets do not understsnd how much effort it goes into creating a game
     
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  17. orb

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    The term for them is "children". In a few years they may be old enough to understand.
     
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  18. Deleted User

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    Asset flip to me means you've not bothered to put much if any effort into developing a game, which is fine until you start asking for money.. If you're (not you specifically) just grouping together a bunch of assets, why would I automatically be inclined to think you've put in effort to the actual game? That vid the OP posted showed 4 - 5 re-hash games with a single asset, on one video..

    I agree with what most has said, Steam will push it to the bottom and there's a refund policy for a reason.. Although these games are waisting space for people searching for new games to play outside their usual set as rare as that might be. Look what game spamming ultimatley did to the Android / IOS market.!

    I personally see the benefit of the asset store, I've used it for prototyping many a time and some (like water / tree's / foliage) will probably make it into the final cut, I mean water looks like water and a tree looks like a tree so it's somewhat daft to spend a month developing said assets..

    End of the day, not much anyone can do about it anyway unless Steam starts curating.. I've got enough problems developing my own game so ignorance is bliss.
     
  19. ShilohGames

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    This video was posted today and is titled "Unity Has An Image Problem (The Jimquisition)".
     
  20. orb

    orb

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    Did Unity even have that much of an image problem before Jim created it?
     
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  21. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    It had a minor problem, mostly because of the splash screen popping up on some real beginner games. Jim definitely amplified the hell out of it, just as he did the asset flipping """crisis"""
     
  22. derf

    derf

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    This is an asset flip.

    Different games that share the same simple asset (3D model, level or game mechanic) among them is not an asset flip.
     
  23. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Unlikely. I think the dude found a decent way to bring more views (by being hysterical about it) and utilized it. Now he'll be milking the idea for a loong time.
     
  24. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    It's just business for him. I doubt he cares either way in real life.
    All very silly and it doesn't feel progressive in any shape or form.
     
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  25. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    OMG. He's wearing EXACTLY THE SAME plaid shirt as every other hipster! Asset flipped shirt!

    I only like house assets BEFORE they are famous.

    LULZ. jokes.

    Srsly. I don't think I'd care if a $3 game had the same house as another. If it was fun and original. Don't they use the same scream sound effect in every horror movie so I heard? I mean they should take some effort to light it and dress it properly. But you know, a lot of houses DO look the same. All the houses on my street do.

    But what this tells me is they should put more house assets on the store to have a bit more variety for B-games. (The game version of B-movies).

    Personally I don't use art assets but not everyone can be an amazing artist like moi.
     
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  26. Teila

    Teila

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    I had this discussion with my kids (teens, young adult). They are huge Youtube fans and watch many of the popular Youtubers, especially related to games.

    They hate Jim. We discussed how some media personalities like to find a few outrageous claims and use them to get attention and followers. That is Jim's aim. He is not out to save the indie game industry, but out to get many followers and lots of money. He is out to get attention for himself.

    Unfortunately, I have found there is as much drama in the game development circles and maybe even more among the gamer circles as what I recall from my days as a girl in middle school. :)

    Sad that it has to be perpetuated here by those who again, run and jump on the bandwagon without looking, clinging to something just because "insert drama king/queen media personality" said so.

    Again, a waste of time. Posting as I eat lunch to avoid getting nacho juice on the keyboard....so using my wasted time to respond.
     
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  27. orb

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    I'll tell you the most ridiculous asset flip I've seen…I was minding my own business, looking for treasure, stabbing people etc. in some Assassin's Creed game. Then while sitting in a tree, pondering who to murder first, I noticed the tree looked oddly familiar. I made a mental note, finished my messy business, and looked at other games from the same developer. Yep, I found the same tree pretty quickly. It was in several AssCreed episodes, FarCry 3 (at least!) and I'm pretty sure I saw it in Watch Dogs also.

    After that I saw more assets that looked suspiciously similar across all these games. I'm sure they even share some of the same Substances (the games, as well as the developers).

    No creativity!
     
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  28. orb

    orb

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    I like your kids. Not in a creepy way or anything though.
     
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  29. AndersMalmgren

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    The most popular multiplayer game in VR used to have the Made with unity logo until i guess they made more than the 100k limit :D
     
  30. tswalk

    tswalk

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    so the house party, the reviewer played that for a while... seems it was affective.

    I like original content, but there is a market for whatever you call asset flipping... it happens, no one cares I think.
     
  31. passerbycmc

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  32. Murgilod

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    Christ, ANOTHER several minute video I have to watch? Doesn't anyone write anything down anymore?
     
  33. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    We've lowered the barrier of entry for air. By opening your mouth and inhaling, you can have more, anyone can. Mouth breathing for everyone.

    I guess mouth breathers would get upset if anyone can do it though. Mouth breathers have an image problem.
     
  34. elbows

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    I will summarise it.

    He correctly see's this stuff as an inevitable consequence of lowering the barriers to entry (which Unity always stated as a core mission via their 'democratising development' rhetoric). He is confused as to why Jim is expecting Unity to do something about this, compared to Jims earlier stance of mostly blaming Steam. He thinks it might be a good idea for Unity to get rid of the splash screen for the free version, and work harder to promote great games made with Unity, or even make one of their own. But he doesnt think it's Unitys job to try to stop rubbish games being made with Unity.

    I agree with him far more than I do Jim.
     
  35. AndersMalmgren

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    This is confusing, isn't this the thread about including demo scenes in environment assets?
     
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  36. Murgilod

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    Sometimes you start a conversation about ponies and then by the end of it you're talking about dialectical materialism. Conversations shift all the time.
     
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  37. AndersMalmgren

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    :) yeah, but there is also a thread about Jim string pants latest video, it seems they have converged :)

    Edit: I need to clear my SwiftKey library
     
  38. Deleted User

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    Do you breathe out of your rear in protest?
     
  39. derf

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    No, but sometimes I exhale out of my rear in defiance.
     
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  40. hippocoder

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  41. Deleted User

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    Well this thread has gotten a lot lighter, easy and "breezy" (that's your fault).. Mission succesful ;).. With all this defiance I should set up an undies shop, much more to be earnt..
     
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  42. orb

    orb

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    Underwear for UMA? I'm sure that will just cause a new wave of survival and/or underwear model games based on one asset pack.
     
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  43. Teila

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    Hmmm, interesting idea.
     
  44. orb

    orb

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    I think zombie survival games with underwear models is a growing niche, although I'm not sure if I'm a fan. See Lollipop Chainsaw.
     
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  45. Aiursrage2k

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    Thats why most indies should just make the games they want to make since its more then likely you wont make much money off it anyway.
     
  46. WhendricSo

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    Asset flips are a big problem, even if they are a small percentage of games, because they make us all look bad. More importantly, every developer who's just getting started and releases their first decent game will be ostracized as soon as the "Made With Unity" logo appears, because that logo is now associated directly with asset flips. This isn't fair to people who are new, or on a tight budget, because they might have put a lot of work into a game and actually made something decent and entertaining, only to be drowned out by ostracism from potential fans over the logo on the splash screen.
     
  47. AndersMalmgren

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    It's tax free to buy a plus license, here in Sweden with our high taxes on salary that means a plus license is pratcily free. If you mean business with your game it's a no Brainer paying the plus license to get rid of the splash
     
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  48. hippocoder

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    Yeah but we need to find the real people to blame: And that's none other than popular youtubers. I don't hate them, but they are to blame, and I'm blaming them for hyping this when only a handful of apps did flip and would die shortly due to steam refund policies.

    In short we do not need these youtubers. They are unwanted. They provide nothing.

    Refunds provide all that anyone needs.

    Logically in a vacuum, props don't matter. When you see films, and they show the same actors you saw before, or the same landmarks you saw before... do you cry "asset flip! unity logo! bad!" ?

    No.

    The only reason anyone makes a big deal of it now is due to the so-called infotainment that youtubers provide, manipulating their audiences to and fro.

    Unlike the honour still present in some journalism, there is no honour to be had with these opinion pieces-posing-as-fact. The real victory would be to wake people up to how much they're manipulated and used, told what to think.

    Sadly I think it might be too late.
     
  49. frosted

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    I actually agree 100% with @hippocoder's main thrust.

    Refunds changed the battlefield.

    I used to care about asset flips and the like because it really was doing a disservice to the gamers (the customers) and by damaging the customer it made the customer less likely to try out more adventurous or smaller titles.

    Refunds addressed that problem in a very real way. It allows the customer to buy a game with security knowing that if it sucks they can just refund it.

    Refunds were a huge gift to the indie/small effort scene, because it reduced the risk to customers.

    Because of these changes, asset flips don't really matter anymore.
     
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  50. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Exactly. Job done everyone, we've solved it. Time to get back developing :D
     
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