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Let’s talk about bleeding numbers.

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by Not_Sure, Dec 29, 2021.

  1. Not_Sure

    Not_Sure

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    OK, I have been thinking a long long time about this feature that has become extremely prevalent in the industry that seems like a lazy but necessary solution.

    I’m talking about bleeding numbers. That is, how many games out there now have numbers pop out of enemies when hit.

    I can see the pros that it allows the player to immediately see damage that they’re doing relative to the method of applying it without looking away from the center of the screen. And it’s easy enough to change the color of the numbers to allow you to know what type of damage has been done.

    But I am not a fan.

    I personally think it breaks immersion, it’s kind of tacky, it lacks imagination altogether, and it hinges on arbitrary values.

    In the very least games should break away from the numbers being a flat total. Make them represent a percentage of the life that’s removed from the enemy, or have them represent how many shots of that value will it take to kill that enemy.

    That’s just off the cuff, bare minimum thought put into it.

    Another thought that occurred to me was having the splash of blood popping off of the enemy representing how much damage is done. The more damage, the bigger the splash. Pretty straightforward. All the while you can have a life bar at the top of the screen. I don’t see how that’s any worse than numbers.

    Of course we can further this idea by having sound effects that match. Probably one of the most brilliant ideas ever was when Quake 3 added a hit sound effect when you strike an enemy. Just take it a step further and have it represent what’s going on.

    My last thought would be having the cross hair reflect it by animation. A massive hit makes pulse further than a small hit.

    Again these are just all off the cuff thoughts.

    What are your thoughts on breaking this trend or if it even should be broken?

    Right now I’m firmly in the camp that I’m sick and tired of seeing numbers pop out of enemies in every single game ever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
  2. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    I don't like cartoony stuff like that and always turn it off if i have the chance.

    But I think majority of shooter game players like the positive reinforcement and tinkerer types like to have insight into the math going on so they can maximize builds.

    Depends on the audience, depends on the game. Having option to toggle it off should be easy to implement and allows flexibility.

    I skim read some article from game review site in which the author was praising new Halo game bbecause it has bright easily identifiable colors and obvious hit registration feedback, etc, and they lamented all the "military" shooters where they die but they dont even know who shot them or where from.

    Kind of stupid to me because the entire point of guns is to kill people without them knowing where you were, but this indicates what sort of wants and expectations the bigger, casual audience wants. They just want a game that is easy to play and delivers satisfaction with little uncertainties or stresses. The hardcore milsim types have different wants but even they are sucker for many gamifications that mean their "realistic" shooters are a long shot from the authentic sim they believe it is. But hte important thing is only that they believe.

    Bleeding numbers is small fry thing though. You can whip it up in a couple hours and then toggle on and off for testing right?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
    Joe-Censored and angrypenguin like this.
  3. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Spot on. Same deal with the serious MMO raid team players, and just about anyone playing anything competitive. They long since stopped caring about immersion in Azeroth or whatever and are all about optimising their build / strats / execution.

    This whole thing isn't about "better" or "worse", it's about what's a fit for your audience.

    When I'm playing Dominion I don't feel immersed in the little fantasy kingdom which is represented by my deck of cards. It's all about arbitrary numbers and rules, and it's still great.

    For certain players exposing those numbers is basically a requirement, and for them I can't think of a better approach. For them, every one of your suggestions has significant drawbacks. Making the numbers relative means I need to do more math to figure out the bits I care about. Replacing them with visual indicators obfuscates them. A health bar at the top of the screen does that and makes me look away from the action.

    Hit numbers are probably not going to work for your game (the Metroid-esque retro-FPS) but games which do use them aren't just letting their thoughtless, unimaginative tackiness break immersion for no reason. They have different priorities for a different audience.

    Well, yeah, but the real world isn't designed to be fun, and guns are designed to be as unbalanced in the user's favor as possible. ;)

    A video game has to be fun even when you're the one getting hit.

    Keep in mind that those assistance features don't actually make the game any easier. They probably make it far more accessible, but a) everyone gets them, b) easier to survive = harder to kill (score points), and c) showing everyone their mistakes in real-time presumably raises the skill level of the overall player base.
     
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  4. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    No, it just changes the way it feels I think.

    Removes uncertainty, which may not make it easier or harder but I think most people find uncertainty to be unpleasant and they avoid it.

    But a game like Tarkov lets there be the uncertainty and certain types of gamers like that a lot. Tarkov is one of hte first games I really felt that sort of dreadful uncertainty and i appreciated that a lot. Now if only we can get that feeling without all the complex RPG stuff I don't want in a shooter...
     
    angrypenguin likes this.
  5. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    Yeah I was just about to highlight Tarkov as an example of actively going against immersion breaking gameplay features. I'd like to see more games go this direction, but I don't think the audience for realism/immersion is large enough. We're probably only going to see a handful of such games every few years, while COD or Battlefield style games with instant HUD style feedback remain the norm.
     
  6. Neto_Kokku

    Neto_Kokku

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    For me it's simple: does the game asks the player to micro manage numbers? If so, then it should display numbers. Otherwise it can do without.

    For example, having things like a weapon or skill with descriptions like "+10 damage" or "+5% defense against fire" in a game where you don't see how much damage you do or even receive sounds counterproductive for me. Even worse if there's some sort of leveling up system.

    If the goal is immersion you'd better do away with the visible numbers altogether, and make the differences in the underlying values noticeable through gameplay (like "this upgraded gun can kill with three to four shots instead of four to five").
     
    DragonCoder likes this.
  7. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    Is this some sort of new trend or something? So far I've only ever seen these on RPGs like Final Fantasy. It doesn't really break immersion in these games because the combat is already abstracted.
     
  8. DragonCoder

    DragonCoder

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    One compromise idea: Shut off the feature in the main game, but give your player some sort of dummy somewhere in the world, a training range or a magical\sci-fi item which allows the numbers to pop up again. The perfectionists will love it when that also provides a "damage per second" evaluation.

    @kdgalla
    Dungeon crawlers tend to have those too since those games are predestined for optimizing your equipment.
     
  9. BrandyStarbrite

    BrandyStarbrite

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    This might be a bit performance taxing, if there are too many enemies, but:

    Why not have a small lifebar meter (it doesn't have to look too detailed), that shows damage instead of numbers, and is only visible when the enemy gets hit? And if the enemies life is low, or gets a critical hit, the lifebar glows in a specific colour.