Lets agree not to become a bunch of snobby game devs

I just wanted to say this. We've all been there, at the beginner level with anything and everything we do. There are those (and they will always exist) who are just starting out in game dev. Sometimes they get annoying, and its tempting to tell them they are too ambitious for their skill level, or simply argue with them about what they can or can't do.

I've visited online communities which are very snobbish and rude about seemingly trivial questions or grand aspirations. Its not a nice experience and it drives people away (like me!). I've also seen in the past few months some people come to these boards with both of those two things I just mentioned. Ie. grand plans and very little experience. We have been kind of rude to them, and TBH I think that's the easy route. I strive to at least take the medium path of difficulty, though sometimes I mess up. I think we all oughta do what's hard or at least not easy.

The only reason I created this thread was this kind of thing came to my attention for me again. I was googling some guidance on how to find coordinates on the unit circle using trig functions and came across some very rude comments on stackoverflow about that exact question.

I just don't want to see such a friendly, helpful community transformed in to a snobby place where rookies aren't welcome. That would be the death of Unity IMO.

On a related note, I passed Precalc this semester!
Just wish I got the grade I wanted...

Yea this thread is probably pretty preachy. Whatevs

 

Too late...

 

You clearly haven't seen some of the past threads concerning MMOs.

 

Unity Tech could add code to the forums to not allow noobs to post anywhere else but the Getting Started forums until the have I don't know 25? 50? posts. And then, more to the point, not allow them to post to the 'General Discussion' forum until the have 100 posts in the other sections of the forum.

 

While they're at it, they could code a "make user not be a n00b" button in Unity. Seems like such an obvious thing to do, no idea why they didn't implement that years ago.

--Eric

 

They did.

 

They can't find the "Learn" hyperlink. What makes you think they'd see the button?

 

Hey, I thought we weren't going to be snobby.

--Eric

 

But I like being a snob. It gives me a sense of superiority.

And on a serious note, I don't think it would be doing any noob a favour if I was to start saying "Sure, you game makes Skyrim look simplistic. But as a brand new dev you can totally do it."

 

I'm above looking down on people. There's a loop in the cycle of superiority. You reach a point that humbles you. You acknowledge the wonder of your existence, and then die.

 

But then you rise up again, more powerful than ever before, and make entire star systems bow before your will.

--Eric

 

What about snarky? Can I still do snarky? I guess I just answered myself.

 

I'll agree with Braineee, past few weeks/montsh there was increasingly negative attitude here.

Well, if it is too late then this community will simply cease to be useful and will be dead for all practical purposes. It is that simple.

That kind of thing never works. Number of posts means nothing, and there are occasionally people that know their stuff but rarely post anything. That kind of thing will work against them. Not a good idea.

Make a bid red text called "READ TUTORIALS HERE!!!", make it take half the page and paint it red.

When someone is genuinely looking for assistance or is sharing ideas, snarky reply will simply make them think that you're a jerk and a good portion of community is just like you.

 

Stackoverflow is currently one the worst communities on the internet - among the top 10. The guys will tear to pieces anybody for any reason regardless of knowledge, time of participation, etc. The best idea is to read answers you found via google search, ignore comments, and never participate.

Used to be a nice place and a good learning resource (about 5 years ago), but oh well.

 

Guys it's the Internet. Just toughen up a little.

Assume everyone is trying to help, but just sucks at communicating. It's about the only viable way to get value from Internet communities. Especially this one. Game developers and programmers are notoriously poor communicators. It comes from spending all day talking to computers in very direct language.

Rookies are welcome. And the first lesson a rookie must learn to become not a rookie is to target achievable scopes. This lesson is closely followed by how to google an answer. Eventually they graduate to reading the documentation, code tags and GetComponent.

If you have a more effective way to help a rookie through these stages then giving them direct advice then I'm all ears. But until then I'll continue crushing dreams.

 

truth is always harsh.....

 

This is one of those things where perspective changes everything. It's always easiest to just vilify anyone who doesn't share our view. But that shows a lack of empathy. (Empathy, as I've said before, is different from sympathy) For the most part, I try to keep my mouth shut when the pipe dreamers show up. I don't always succeed, but I try.

My view though, is that telling people the reality of the situation is more compassionate than letting them delude themselves. Others may not agree with me, and that's cool. But to those people, I ask you to consider that we are one of the few industries/hobbies where that is true. A 15 year old who just got his learners permit isn't going to be patronized if he pops into a professional race driver forum and says he wants to compete for Porsche. Someone who just picked up a guitar and wants to learn Eruption by Van Halen is going to be told to start with simply melodies and scales first. These people aren't being dismissed because of lack of compassion, they are being guided by compassion. That's my view. Again, it might not be everyone's view. But it is just as easy for those on my side to vilify the other side. What we should be choosing to do is not to vilify anyone.

 

Spoiler: censored

But if we did that we wouldn't have people like anita sarkeesian to enjoy. Who else would go so far as to complain to the UN that some people online were being mean to her? She might be trying to kill our industry, but I think it's more like a roller coaster ride. There's ups and downs and a lot of thrills, ultimately all just for our amusement.

For this line, I would like your post twice if I could. It describes my life very well. I can Java better than I can English. I was a very poor phone salesperson.

Is that one of your scientific experiments gone wrong? If people suggest non-dream crushing alternatives you turn into a pile of ears?

Ha! That statement would be considered very toxic in some communities

Doesn't seem to be the case for the experienced members. Also I've seen a strong, warm welcome to at least 5 new people last month who were new to the community but either had previous programming experience or displayed enough focus and understanding of scope to pull off the idea they half posted in the general forums. I'm sure there's been more, those were just the few I got to see.

 

Be careful, both my statement and yours could be construed as nanoagressions. Coming to a society near you!

 

Well, I'm not sure if you can, but you can try.

The internet conditions people to ignore big red letters. At least I often catch myself ignoring everything above a certain font size and scanning the rest of the text for actual information.

I used to think their system is super awesome, but I've seen on imgur that it isn't. I just get on SO via google, like you suggested and didn't even know about half of all that drama.

I think I actually like the more direct language, because it tends to be a little less open for misinterpretation. I'd like to think that in the end it makes things a little easier for us here, especially since English isn't a native language for many of us.

I haven't been here for very long so I'm still with one foot in noob territory and I can say that the community was always very friendly and welcoming to me. Imho this forum is one of the nicest places on the web and everybody shows great amounts of good intentions. I'm really thankful this place is what it is and I'd want it to stay this way. I'd probably even stick around if I would quit gamedev entirely or switch engines. Both of which are unlikely, but you never know.


I'm all for being nice, friendly and helpful, but I do think there is such a thing as a barrier to entry which is too low. At the university where I studied design we had an application ratio of about 10 applicants per 1 place. And from those that do get accepted some drop out before they graduate, some get eaten by an exploitative industry and suffer burnout in their 30s, some barely scrape by as freelancers and a tiny fraction of the original applicants end up in an at least mostly positive job situation. This is the reality of the market/creative industry and at the university stage of the whole journey imho you can't do anything to increase the number of people who end up sort of happy. The ONLY thing they could do is raise the barrier to entry, filter even harder and more specific, and thus improve the ratio of people who enroll to the ones who end up in a good place. When a system works like this, and you know it is like this, I consider it highly cynical and unethical to tell everyone who shows an interest in a creative profession "Sure, if that's what you'd like to do, go for it. The sky's the limit.". When I applied to study design at a public school (which had no tuition fees at the time) some of those that I knew, who were declined at that school, enrolled in a private school that cost a few hundred bucks a month. They didn't care who enrolls, they were making good money from the students after all. So their barrier to entry was really low.

 

You can be constructive and helpful and compassionate without having to use it to prove how much prowess you have or how much better you are. There is a lot of snobbery, but overall I'd say this forum has a lower level of it most of the time. Newbies do need some sometimes tuff love to help them learn to be more realistic. It's my own fault if I lose patience and start telling them they suck - what does that say about me? I say we're here to set an example and to demonstrate maturity and some kind of fellowship/helpfulness, not to put people down or be cold-hearted. And then maybe poke them with a stick a bit. ;-)

 

That is not good excuse. Just because a lot of people act like jerks, doesn't mean everyone else should do this too.

That does not match my internet experience in past 10 years. Most people don't want to help, they want to make themselves look cool, or they want to be a smartass, or they want to feel important because of their post count, number of likes, karma or whatever. Empathy and real desire to help are rare or non-existent.(Well, part of the reason for that is that subtleties of face-to-face communication do not transfer over text, but still).

These days basic human communication is part of the game developers/programmer's skill. How are you going to handle customer feedback or get yourself contracts otherwise? Any programmer or gamedev should be able to handle communication. If they can't, they deserve nothing higher than code monkey position at the bottom of the ladder. Being polite and professional is important. As you said, toughen up.

 

I was joking. If you read the Unity forums at all, you will know I am among the nicer people here (with newcomers at least). I spend a lot of time defending newcomers, even the MMO types.

I don't think people are snobby here. There are a few that might be, but just ignore them. Most of them you think are snobby are just not good at communicating. You have to learn to read between the lines.

Also, a lot of them are fixers...if someone asks a question, they get a real answer and it often is not the answer people want. I know, I am married to a fixer.

Honestly, I think the youngsters and newcomers need to have a little more confidence in themselves and not feel the need to come here and post to validate their own ideas. Many times, they don't really want answers, they just want everyone to tell them what a great idea they have or how fabulous it is that they decided to do this.

Instead, introduce yourself and tell us why you are here, what you are planning to make, and not just the idea, but some practical information. If you tell us you want to make an RPG and can't code, then we will tell you to learn to code. If you tell us you are looking for free models, we will direct you to the asset store. If you ask for someone to tell you how to use Unity, we will show you the LEARN button at the top of the page.

But if you tell us about yourself, why you want to do this and how you are going to learn to do it, we will welcome you and bring you into the fold. Then...build your game and post in the appropriate places and we will try to help you.

 

Yet it isn't too far from my experience with these forums. The Internet is a bit like a city in real life. Some areas should be avoided because you might get mugged. Others have people who are so focused on their social status that they don't care about anyone else. Still others have decent people who are trying to assist each other with their hobby.

 

Agree, however, as a parent of a wannabe programmer, I can tell you that some people are just not that good at communicating. Programming is one of those fields that seems to attract people like my son. He is a nice kid, always helping out and even spends a certain amount of time each week on Unity Answers, but he still isn't good at expressing himself with language.

 

It becomes even worse when you're discussing with someone who doesn't speak English natively. Yes, occasionally you will run into some who are better at English than those of us who speak it natively, but the majority are not that good at it.

 

I love snobby people. I love the smacking sound they make when I knock them off their high horses.

 

Only if you can reach to knock them off.

 

You can always trip someone up when their head is in the clouds. No need to reach them.

 

And reach for that ignore button... hahah

 

I hope it was clear in the thread: I mean lets not become a bunch of snobs, ok? Not saying that we are.

 

Well, since you can go to gamedev.net right now and make a post, and get downvoted 4-5 times for the smallest comment, no... we are not snobs.

 

I will use a broom to knock you off, Archania. As long as you don't see me coming, shouldn't be too hard.

 

I wouldn't cause you would be ON the broom!

 

Kind of pisses me off, this thread. I'll explain: nobody as far as I can tell looks down on others. So why would they start after 10 years? This community doesn't tolerate it. So that is why I'm annoyed.

I've seen so many helpful people here so to throw a thread up like this is just flat out annoying. Maybe snob is the wrong word?

 

If you are shorter then me, of course I look down on you.

 

I said that I saw increase in negative attitudes over past month.
"This is the place where dreams go to die"? C'mon. (sarcasm)Nice way to introduce community to a newbie.(/sarcasm)

Technical people tend to hate "reading between the lines", because they often deal with information that is structured and logical, without subtleties. When someone has an answer, there's no reason to dance around the issue instead of giving the answer. Dancing around the issue equals wasting time, most of the time.

Most of the "fixers" on the internet are "wannabe fixers". People that really can figure out what someone needs are very rare. In my experience, most of the time a "fixer" is someone who's full of themselves, believes they know everything, so they'll generate noise in the thread, asking questions they believe will lead poster towards solution they believe is the best for what they believe is poster's problem, until poster gets pissed and leaves the thread.

It was particularly evident on SO last time I used it. Ask a complex question, provide every single detail you could think of, throw every single piece of relevant of information and waste half of a hour doing everything by the book, and the very first you get is a overconfident idiot which will ignore 95% of your post, and will start insisting that your question is duplicate of some DIFFERENT problem that looks similar at the first glance, or (worse) will start arguing with you in comments insisting that "you're doing it wrong" (although if he bothered to read the text he/she would know why the thing had to be this way and no other option is suitable) instead of addressing your goddamn problem.

THIS is typical "internet fixer". So it is the best idea NOT to act this way.

Be polite, professional, maintain neutral attitude, address directly the question without dancing around the issue. If there are techniques you believe are superior, mention them at the end of the post, with links. If there are unintended consequences mention them too. Dancing around the issue, being snarky, sarcastic, or trying to be a smartass is wasting time, especially if the thread is related to technical issue.

 

I think the community is fine, TBH the Unity forums are the most stable ever. I've seen forums where people are allowed to run amok, and forums where even the slightest thing is considered a capital offence.

This works both ways: when I deal with abuse reports, I act on them. But when a bunch of people report "oh so and so seems a tiny bit harsh" I delete them. You need balance. This place will never become hello kitty meets my little pony for the simple fact that it would be deeply retarded.

Above all there's a lot of good self moderation. But I'm more "lets see it happen first" not "lets create an issue".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour

 

But this community is not some heirarchical institute of hero worship where a few posters determine the narrative and who is/isn't "cool". A lot of places are that way. At least here, everybody gets to comment, everybody gets heard. Tolerating annoying stuff makes this place what it is.

It is stable now, you're right.

 

Most forums tend to be better than generic comments sections. Never, ever, read the comments, should be the golden rule of the internet. But it's hard to resist the temptation. I'm super glad to have an Nvidia Shield so I can watch Hulu on my TV now. Otherwise I might see some jackwagon in the comments to Arrow complaining that the Black Canary does that "stupid scream thing now" Which is a bit like complaining that The Flash runs fast, the Green Arrow shoots arrows, or Supergirl flies. But I digress.

 

Yeah and take note: moderators aren't special snowflakes, we are like you. We are you. We just deal with spam and abuse. But it gets AWFULLY tiring when people constantly report utterly harmless posts which politely disagree - can you imagine how far it would go? you would never survive lol

 

That one wasn't very funny. And wasn't very positive.

As I said, subtleties are often lost in text form. Keep that in mind.

 

Don't cry Ryiah, I found it funny.

 

I think hippo is right, I've been here now for a little bit, from a point where I needed help, to a point where I feel I can offer it out sometimes, and I have never once had any problems with people being "snobby".

 

Maybe...but a fixer is a personality type and often they are not bad people. Most of the time, they are really trying to help.

Honestly, Negafinity, I think your post that I am quoting is the most negative, insulting post in this entire thread and since you are telling us all how to act, ignoring the humor rampant in this thread, and basically acting like a snob who knows better than most of us how to act "all proper and polite in society". I don't think you are a snob though, I just think you want to help make things better. But the tone..at least in written form, cuts.

At the risk of sounding like a snob myself, this is a community of people from all different cultures. They respond differently because of their own culture norms..and their own personalities. I am sure if Hippo or someone sees people getting attacked, they will do something.

Absolutely. These are great forums. I meet the occasional jerk, but they are usually people who think they are "right" and everyone else is illogical. lol Snobs? I don't think so.

Ha!! So true...very few of us would survive.

Remember...it is very hard to read intent on the internet. You may think it is snobby, when it is really a joke. Sarcasm is not always negative but can sometimes make a very important point in a non-threatening manner. Passion about something can sometimes seem to be anger when really, it is just someone explaining how they feel/think about something.

Try not to take what you read here so seriously.

 

Humour is very subjective. That's why I often put a smiley ( ) on my posts when I'm being silly.

 

And please, continue with your sarcastic humor. I love it! One of the joys of the forums is when I laugh out loud at someone's joke. I do think sarcasm is a mature humor, not everyone gets it. I have had to teach my kids to enjoy it and now have three sarcastic kids. lol

 

I have problems with this; for many times I'm just trying to be realistic about something and point out a better direction, but use english words that infuriates a lot of ppl
Then I've learned to talk less and listen to more..

 

Reminds me of thls: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/smiley

There's more than one way to smile, and only so few smileys. It is not always obvious what you mean - as I said, subtleties and non-verbal info are lost in text.

It is just people were showing up in general section and met with either "your project is unrealistic" or "gamedev is sucks if you want money". While this is technically true, it is overly negative at the same time. And the "this is the place where dreams go to die" felt like one of THOSE kind of posts.

The engine, despite its numerous flaws, is something that would take years to write from scratch. Many (gamedev) dreams can become a reality with it, although not all of them. So it would be nice to see more positive attitudes.