less is more for mechanic design, while the more the better for details design

I spent time and energy reading many design books only for to be a "troll". And some books are not easy reading.
When I read or do some prototypes, I never come to forums. You can check my post timestamp, so where is "day after day".
When I finished reading, I need to share some thoughts and make some discussions. Does my discussion approach harm you?

 

Hong is not my name. my username is an ID.

 

We just call you Hong because it is easier than typing out your whole name.

Out of curiousity, what was the book that you read that made you make this thread?

When you make a thread, you consistently reply to posts seemingly everyday. That's what he means.

I really hope that I'm not getting baited by a troll ;-;

 

I don't thihnk he means to be a troll. Just an oddball. In any case, I'm gonna use the handy dandy ignore feature.

 

Look at my post numbers and yours. you come to this conclusion so easily.

 

Post numbers have nothing to do with trolling but okay. I agree with the rest. Your logic seems off oftentimes. I suggest that you try to make something to see if your hypothesis work in practice and if they do work than you can shove that proof into everyone's face and prove them wrong.

 

Could you give an example when my logic is off? In fact I am organizing these knowledge, and I just got these ideas one week or two weeks ago.And these ideas are not from any book.

 

That's no my style.

 

So did you or did you not get your idea from a book? An example of some off logic is you deciding to pour so much time into research and never executing anything you've learned by making a game of some sort.

 

I don't finish my info collecting. I am comparing crafting system among some survival games like 7 days to die or forest or others. In fact, I want to open a crafting thread about this.
When I begin making a game, I still need go back for comparing these items.

Before I begin making, I want a list of items, and crafting table. Some games have huge inventories. I didn't get the pattern of crafting system. (for instance, make the crafting chain length longer, you will get a factory simulation)

 

neoshaman gave me some suggestions on books two month ago, then I began to study the theory seriously. Before that, I asked questions about game design and got some replies. But the replies are not enough, so I decided to read book myself. Now I am playing games for learning. I want to play more games before I begin making games.

 

I can't tell this idea coming from this book, another idea from playing "the dankest dungeon". All together.

 

Well nobody starts by making the game that they want to make. They make something small because coding technique, optimization, logic, and etiquette is half the battle. You need programming experience before you can even think of making something remotely coherent (or otherwise it'd probably be very hard).

 

That's what I want to talk about. There are many ways to start making a game. Making a small game, it looks like everyone here except me agree, is a good start. To me, making a small game is also good start, but having some conditions. Without meeting some conditions, making a small game is expensive in time consuming.

On my youtube channel, I upload some my prototypes for coding technique. At that time, I have no idea of game design. So I think making a game (knowing what and how, don't know why) is an expensive action.

 

@hongwaixuexi
I didn't start making a small game, I started making a big game. I spent years working on it very hard, and I did a pretty solid job. But it was too big and I had to give up, maybe I finish it eventually. Maybe not.

Then I decided to make a small game. Spent a few months, game is good. Ready for sale on Steam.

The small game way is better. You need to learn, and the only way to learn is to do.

Rimworld, Darkest Dungeon, these are master works. You will not be able to make a master work on your first effort. It is like listening to a legendary music composer and saying "I will write a masterpiece song". You will not. Your first song will sound bad. Your second song will sound maybe ok. Your third song, maybe, will sound good.

After years, maybe you will be able to make a truly great song.

But your first song... it will be bad.

It is the same with all other works, movies, film, tv, stories, architecture, carpentry, sewing, swimming, sports. It takes time and failure to become good.

 

I think you mean 95% to be bad song, 5% good song.

Since you talk about Rimworld. I will talk it further.
Rimworld wrote a book before he started making the game. "Designing Games A Guide to Engineering Experiences"
He knew the theory before he began making.
I didn't finish reading his book, because I think he repeat same thing too often.


His GDC talk.

 

I mean smaller than what you are doing now. Something like Pinball or Tetris which are games that are well documented so that if you need help along the way, you could always look up a tutorial for one of those. As @frosted said, your first original game will be bad. It will be poorly executed and perhaps even poorly thought out. My advice would be to copy some small game (like Pinball or Tetris as I said before) and then make your own small game (doesn't need to be entirely original) and then work up from there until you reach a decent production quality. There's no reason to study the art of game making when you may be leagues ahead of everyone when it comes to game design but you'll be far back when it comes to actually making the game.

 

I wasn't aware "sitting around doing nothing while making excuses" was a style.

 

Making a game is nothing like swimming or sports. It is expensive, you will spend so much time on one starting idea. Sometimes, it is a time trap, and you can't get out from a doomed game, because you put all your hope on it.

 

So our styles both turn out this time.

 

Only if you make it expensive.

 

That's the problem. Take whatever game you are going to make now, and make something A LOT smaller. Something that'll take you a month maybe.

 

Because I am making it expensive. That's why I still collect info before making hands dirty.

 

Tynan Sylvester (author of Rimworld) began work on games as a modder in 2000, 19 years ago.

• He was hired by Epic games as a level designer in 2004 while in school based on his modding levels.
• Did work as a level designer at groove games in 2006.
• In 2007 he was hired to work on Bioshock: Infinite, as a level designer.
• In 2010, he worked on Bioshock: Infinite as a game designer, working on combat systems design.
• In 2012 he began work on Rimworld.

Sylvester had around 12 years of, hands on, professional experience before he worked on Rimworld. He had worked with other brilliant designers and studied under them while working on a world class game like Bioshock.

He wrote the book in 2013, after he had over a decade of experience building video games at professional level.

At over ten years of professional experience, he was at a master level, which is why his game Rimworld was so damn good.

 

Why would you make your first game (which will be garbage like all of our first games) expensive? That sounds like a waste of time and effort. You should double guess yourself since everyone around you is saying that this is not a good idea.

 

Because I spent time on failed games on Steam. I thought I got some lessons from them.

 

So 10 years of professional experience make him at a master level, not other things?

 

In his book, he wrote:
I owe a great debt to all the better thinkers from whom I borrowed ideas.
Without them, this book could not exist. My borrowing was so widespread
that I couldn’t possibly list every source that influenced me. But I have,
with difficulty, managed to pare down the list to the 10 richest seams of
game design–relevant ideas I’ve ever found. These books expand on and
clarify many of the concepts in this book

 

A lot of people look at a game like Rimworld and think "this is an amateur game" - its not. He practiced for 5 years on Bioshock, Close Quarters, Warpath, and Unreal Tournament...

He was a AAA developer.

No. He began working, and learned theory to become better. So many people, sit in theory and never make anything.

 

Jeez this thread has nothing to do with the OP anymore. Now it's "What goes first? Theory or practice?". Bruh I don't know if this is going anywhere. All parties seem like brick walls that can't be changed. Perhaps this thread should be abandoned? Honestly suprised that it hasn't be locked yet by a moderator.

Also to answer the aforementioned question, nothing stops you from learning both theory and practice at the same time. Perhaps you can learn some theory from practice too.

 

I got these ideas recently, and still developing them. Now I become a sit man, it would be very bad if I am in Salem forum.

 

It depends on moderators, and they have rules. I want you talk about design ideas, and provide some examples from steam games my thought can't explain.

 

I borrow Tynan words here.
the key to world-class performance isn’t talent or time, but deliberate practice.

My words: years is important , but not enough for master level.

 

I did. Ultra Chess.

Edit: Also I'm pretty sure that I've seen threads get locked due to off-topicness.

 

Moderators are not the only people that can make a thread abandoned. You can abandon it by not posting, we can do it by not posting, etc. You've already lost at least one individual. You have three left and when we're gone this thread will likely not see another post from anyone but you for the simple reason that most people know better than to respond to you.

We're willing to talk about design ideas. Just look at all of the other threads in this section. There are tons of enthusiastic discussions and the key reason is that the people who started them either (a) knew the field due to experience and wanted to discuss them, or (b) they wanted to learn by asking others who have the experience.

You've proven to us that you're neither (a) nor (b). You don't have the experience to truly understand the field and you don't have any desire to learn from the people that do know. Therefore it's a complete waste of time to talk to you about design ideas.

 

Most gamers have no making game experience, so game designers don't talk to gamers.

 

What does any of this have to do with my post?

 

Okay I'm done with thread but before I go I must say this: You must see (this thread as proof) that you won't get a constructive thread going without experience or if you keep starting threads with highly unpopular views (which I assume you have due to a lack of experience).

 

Eh. I had fun with this thread.

Some might look at this thread and say, "this was a bad thread". I look at this thread and say, "this was a niche thread".

 

Because I have zero experience, you suggest me making a game.

In return, I suggest experienced making better game (making game is kind of waste of time, if you can't make it better).

 

Jebus... y'all are kind prickly about this... its a voluntary participation board, and you get angry at hong for posting what he (or she) is thinking about game development?

Instead of telling them to "get off the boards and make a game", maybe just unsubscribe from the thread if that bothers you so?

Its almost comical watching this thread develop!

Usher (the US pop sensation) did say once that he studied those who came before him. The guy is filthy rich now.

Some like to examine before jumping in headfirst. Hongwei seems like a very thoughtful person!

 

It has very little to do with how they think, and almost everything to do with how they present it. We've had troubles in the past with newbies showing up, reading a thread where someone left the impression they knew what they were talking about and didn't, and then had the newbie trying to approach their problems in that way only to have more problems.

You can't become an expert at a subject with just research. You need experience with it to advance. It's one of the reasons I like to point out when I've only Googled for information on a subject. To avoid labeling myself an expert.

Studying other musicians isn't the only thing he did though. He's invested at least 28 years (1991 to present) into creating his own musical works. That's a considerable amount of experience and undoubtedly completely dwarfs any research he may have done.

Becoming a rich musician is impossible if you've never made any music. Same principle applies to game development.

You misspelled stubborn.

 

Yeah. I think, in general, people don't give enough credit to experience.

Long time ago, craftsmen understood the value of years and years of experience. People would apprentice to learn directly from masters, etc.

Now I think people are under the impression that some people are just geniuses who magically became super successful because they were geniuses. Not because they put in years and years of work to hone their craft.

Becoming truly "good" at something takes years of work and practice. It doesn't matter if we're talking about game design or sewing or carpentry.

When you begin to work at anything, you are going to be a n00b, and you are going to suck. Accept this fact, embrace this fact. If you want to be good, you are going to fail over and over in order to git good. The smart way is to keep the failures small at first, so that it's not a big deal. Fail early, fail often, and build your skill.

 

Funny to read all
Just want to say, there is a reason, why child will touch fire, or hot kettle, even been thought 100 times, is hot and don't touch. Learning process and perception. Seams so far opposite here ... or at least liking being told is hot (read books), but don't want to touch (try).
Uh .. looong journey as game dev ....

 

I do think that @Murgilod is often too harsh. As for myself though, I'm just trying to help him and perhaps learn something from this discussion. Neither seems plausible at this point which is why I retracted myself from the prior discussion.

Studying is good and all but it's kinda wack when no good ideas seem to come from it. At least what I've read from Hong (which admittedly is very little).

 

Hong has been posting things like this for two months now. The only difference between now and eight months ago is that they're reading books instead of just guessing.

 

Oof

 

Let's do some math.

If you spend 1 year to make a small game. The small game has 25% possibility to sell several thousand copies with $5 price, 75% none.

If you spend 5 years to make a middle complex game. The game has 10% possibility to sell several hundred thousand copies with $10 price, 90% none.

The ratio is (100*0.1*10)/(0.25*5*5) = 16 times.

In theory you can earn more 16 times in complex game than simple game.
Change the numbers for different situation.
Complex game has an advantage.

 

If you read game dev books for 50 years, with 0 practice, your dev skills still will be null.

 

In fact, I am making a survival game with sandbox elements. How do you know I am not?