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less is more for mechanic design, while the more the better for details design

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by hongwaixuexi, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Mechanic should be simple, elegant and concise, not obscure.

    While the details should be mess, complex and obscure. For instance you have 3 choices, one is obviously good, then the player can choose the right easily. That's not what I want.

    Give the player a couple of choices, and make every choice unclear and very hard to trade-off. Increase 8 strength while decreasing 5 wisdom, or increase 5 wisdom while decreasing 2 strength or so. Let the player choose loose 5 strength or 5 wisdom. Let the player choose the bad things he accept, don;t give the bad things directly.

    NPC1 can help the player increase collecting speed, but he also steal some. NPC2 can help the player battle and royal, but he has a disease which will cost a lot of money. Let the player make a choice to choose one as a partner. If the player choose NPC2, then NPC1 tell the player he knows NPC2 has 30% to be contagious. Let the player make choice again.

    That's my thought about game design.
     
  2. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    And, like near all your thoughts on game design, it's prescriptivist nonsense based entirely around things you've read in books rather than direct experimentation. Obscurity can be incredibly important, making it so the player has to think and potentially research what they're doing.

    Play Fez. Almost all of the late-game puzzles involve dealing with obscured mechanics and concepts.
     
  3. frosted

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    I was kinda on board with the first 4 threads. But yeah, at this point I think its time to move beyond theory and just prototype.

    Too many people get stuck in theory forever and never get anything actually done.
     
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  4. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Yes, I think our main man Hong is stuck in a loop of endless procrastination. i want to see screenshots and videos of a game, then followed by questions/thoughts.

    It's like kissing, you know. You can practice with your pillow or whatever, but at some point, you gotta just start kissing people (consensual, please), realizing that the first ones are gonna be awkward as hell.
     
  5. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I don't know what's your definition for prototype.

    Is design document or similar paper prototype too? Or just Unity3d prototype?

    Now I am playing games for data. I want a lot of items and a lot of attributes and traits. Many work should be done by notes. For instance, how much for each item duration? How many bad traits?

    When you make an Unity3d prototype, you will have a lot of issues to face. You can't test many ideas easily. In fact, in my previous threads, I showed many prototypes focused on one idea. I spent a lot of time on prototypes, and they can't form an interesting game. That's why I came here for game design. I made some progress on game design now, but I am still learning it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  6. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Before I came here for design suggestions. I made some prototypes.
    I tried to mix first person adventure with texts adventure ("lifeline" BGM). I made some improvements later, but not uploaded.
    You can skip texts.
    First task at 2:00 Second task at 4:15 Third task at 5:30


    In fact I checked each template of Unity asset store? They can be considered as prototypes too, and they all have one fatal shortcoming: the game design. That's one reason why asset flips have bad reputation.
     
  7. Murgilod

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    Make a game.
     
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  8. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    So there are two kinds of people: make a game people, and not people.
     
  9. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    This month I played several games, still playing, then I got some thoughts.

    So details should be obscure is correct.
     
  10. Murgilod

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    Then leave this forum for game development?


    That is not what I said at all.
     
  11. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    "Game design" not "game development" is this forum for. Then how can you remove game design from game development. You can't make game development without game design. What will happen if designer or writer leave? The programmer do all of this.

    Very well. You said Obscurity can be incredibly important. I said details should be obscure.
     
  12. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    My username is another meaning long before, has no meaning now, just an ID now.
     
  13. Murgilod

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    A game design forum on the Unity engine developer boards. A game dev forum.


    CAN be. You'll notice I also said "late game puzzles."
     
  14. Ryiah

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    Fixed that for you.

    A thought that has no value because you have zero experience with the subject in question. Come back once you've made a game and then we'll consider any wisdom you want to share. Until then you're just wasting your time and ours as well as potentially confusing anyone that genuinely wants to become a game developer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  15. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    You confuse mechanics with details. They are different.
     
  16. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.

    "Can I make a game?" she asked.

    "Do you make game design?" was his response.

    "I don’t know," Alice answered.

    "Then," said the cat, "it doesn’t matter."

    cat.jpg
     
  17. Murgilod

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    No they aren't because a game is the culmination of multiple different elements, and making those elements interconnected is a huge part of game design. You would know this if you made a F***ing game.


    You can not call yourself a game designer, you can not design a game, without working on a game. Otherwise you are, appropriately, just playing make believe.
     
  18. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Please talk that to New York Times, because they keep attacking Trump while they have zero experience as a leader.
     
  19. Ryiah

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    I'll pass. If they're anything like you they'll just ignore any sound advice and continue making an idiot of themselves. At least with my posts here I have a good chance of convincing people that don't know any better that you don't actually know what you're talking about and to avoid your "wisdom".
     
  20. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I said many times (even in this post again) I am still learning game design. Why I can't share my thoughts during learning?
     
  21. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I said that because I concluded it by learning. You should focus on my thoughts. For instance, if you thought details shouldn't be obscure, then state yours.
     
  22. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    How do you interconnect those elements? What are those elements?
     
  23. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I am only in two months. I started to carefully read game design books two months ago. Now I am playing games for many days.
     
  24. Murgilod

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    That depends on the game because design is not game agnostic.
     
  25. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Do you have knowledge of survival game? If you have, please use it as an example.
     
  26. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Why can't you think I am in a positive loop of learning game design. I can't put those ideas two months ago. I wouldn't believe I can get those ideas at that time.
     
  27. Murgilod

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    "Survival game" is meaningless. You need to be specific to the game you are trying to make and what you are trying to convey. Games are not assembly line products.
     
  28. hongwaixuexi

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    The player is put in a place called Erebus where is between living and dead. The player came here alive, that's rare. The place is very cloudy, it's hard to grow plants. Then the player should survive here.
     
  29. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Make a playable demo build of the game, zip it, deliver it, and if I can play for 30 minutes without hitting a game breaking bug or becoming hopelessly confused, I'll give a long, detailed, and honest review about how I view your game design so far. Before I download anything though, I wanna see a full video playthrough to make sure you're legit. I wanna see a face, smiling teeth, charismatically showing off your magnificent creation in entirety.

    If it's a story game but you don't have english subtitles, make the storytelling so obvious and inconsequential to design that I won't need it to enjoy the game.

    If you do that and continue doing that for 1 year, I'll buy your game in whatever state it's in on steam (at a reasonable price. not more than $50) and I'll leave a nice review.

    If your post become more specific and useful over the next 6 months, and it appears that you are putting into practice advice people are giving you, I'll make a few character models for your game for free. Nothing elaborate. Not more than 15 hours work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
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  30. Murgilod

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    This is the story. How do you plan on telling it?
     
  31. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    When I do something, I want a result as you said result important than process. Now I am in learning game design state, I want to organize these ideas by reading and by playing good games. Now I have some ideas, and I need to check whether they are right. To my surprise, I don't get any direct feedback on those ideas.
     
  32. hongwaixuexi

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    That's the world the player is in. No authored story. The player need to collect food, building shelter, and deal with unexpected enemies and friends.
    He also need to grow plants in his shelter by LED. The world has many sunken ships and planes, so the player can collect materiel. It's a grey world, the player sanity decrease slowly.
     
  33. Murgilod

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    Why does it decrease slowly? With everything you do, ask yourself "why?" and "how does this tie in with everything else?" and "what systems benefit this and what systems detract?" This is the fundamental basis of design.
     
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  34. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    He is alone and he faces unexpected world, and the world isn't bright (no sunshine anymore, just grey light). His side is a dead world, so his soul is attracted. He need to find ways to resist the attraction of the dead world. His soul can see those ghosts passing by.
     
  35. Ryiah

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    Likewise we've said many times across many threads that you need to make games to truly learn game design. You can't just sit there and read books endlessly. Little to nothing in life truly works like that. You need experience.
     
  36. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    It would be very costly if I am a astronaut.
     
  37. Ryiah

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    Good thing you're not an astronaut then. Because I guarantee you NASA would just kick you out if you tried to do nothing but study books. NASA wants people that are willing to put effort into learning through practice and not people that just waste time making excuses like you.

    You could be out there making games but instead you're holding yourself back thinking you know better than everyone else.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  38. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Why you talk about me, not my thoughts on game design? If I am wrong, point out.
     
  39. Murgilod

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    We have pointed out. Repeatedly. Over many threads. You are wrong because you refuse to put anything into practice.
     
  40. Ryiah

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    I already explained why.

    Likewise I already explained why for this too, and it definitely isn't an "if". You are wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  41. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Why paperwork is not considered as practice? Do you make tables or write some document before you make games? Or just make the game?
     
  42. Ryiah

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    There is a difference between a little paperwork and nothing but paperwork. Furthermore you don't do anything related to paperwork for a prototype. A prototype is to see if the idea is even worth persuing. Once you've decided it is then you start paperwork like a GDD.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  43. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I have to quote your words for your conclusion. (Let's stop arguing after this, OK?)
     
  44. Ryiah

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    Are you going to change your approach?
     
  45. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Yes, you are the winner.
     
  46. Ryiah

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    I'm not trying to win. I'm trying to turn you into an actual game developer. Something you can't do by just reading books.
     
  47. Billy4184

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    I see the game design forum is the new general discussion ;)
     
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  48. hongwaixuexi

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    In fact, those element are details like crafting system or dialogue system. You can't control their relationship directly, that means, the mechanics interconnect those elements, not those elements themselves.

    Mechanics work like a human rig to some degree, those elements are like animations. So static mechanics create dynamic details.

    So you can't interconnect those elements directly, you design mechanics, then mechanics interconnect those elements.
     
  49. Murgilod

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    No. This is sloppy design at best and garbage at worst. Watch this video. Understand the total work of art. Understand intent.

     
  50. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I have many questions about your reply:
    1. why youtuber is a reliable source for game design learning?
    2. In this video, there is no open world or sandbox elements. Other words, they were 10 years old games.
    3. Even for progression game, it still needs open world or sandbox elements.
    4. I made a mistake before, and I wanted to author the relationship of those elements. Now I know let it go.