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latest best of breed tools?

Discussion in 'External Tools' started by tbarbe, May 22, 2010.

  1. Manishtushu

    Manishtushu

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    Well, you would want a program that will support the creation of things like normal maps, ambient occlusion which some of those programs do not support. Again, if money is an issue, then Blender is a full-featured program for free.
     
  2. Tiles

    Tiles

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    All of them, in case you really want to produce graphics that deserves this name, and are not just placeholders ;)

    That`s not meant as an offence to the quality of the hobby graphics or the hobby artists themselves. It`s the fact that it is simply nearly impossible to create graphics like a next gen character in professional quality by just using Milkshape or Fragmotion. I don`t even think about creating a normalmap from a high tesselated mesh here.

    I understand that you want to stay at a low hobby level so that you have enough free time to finish your game at all. I`m fine with that. And it is in general a good strategy not to loose yourself into details. Finishing a game is an art in its own. And everybody who manages that has done something right. But not everybody wants to work at that low level of quality :)

    Your mistake at your current strategy is, it might need time to learn the more advanced tools. But you learn it once. And then every graphics you produce is faster created than with your formerly limited toolset. Ways faster. And some techniques are just possible with the more advanced toolset. Like sculpting.

    I don`t know if you are able to make better graphics then though. It`s art :)
     
  3. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    When I was young we said :

    There are two categories of guys :

    The guys of speak of girls
    and
    The guys who speak with girls

    Same thing for game programmers

    The day that you show me an AAA game developed by an hobbyest game programmer, I will change my mind
     
  4. sama-van

    sama-van

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    yeah better to say that first :D

    If you want to learn you can get a 20 000 yens license for one year... this is something like less than 200$...

    Do not forget to say that if you meet people working in a big company like Ubi, EA, Blizzard, GameLoft, SquareEnix, etc...

    Yeah but you can create a team if you are boring developing mini game :)

    Lol Milkshape? Milkshape to develop games... My first time!

    What is simple?

    And to sell 10 units/


    Keep some to buy at least 3dsmax or Maya.


    Today the AAA are developed by a 200 people team.
    Better to keep the number of people they worked on FF13 in Japan or on other famous title from America.


    Fact to use Maya or 3dsmax is it let you more choice in the way to develop your 3D.
    Also the 2 tool will help you to work faster than milkshape when you learn to use them.


    In the Indy market you have people working alone, they will continue to produce very medium game all their life. Because they cannot handle everything theirself if they want to sell some units.

    And you also have indy working as a team with 2 or 3 artist with some programmer too.

    A AAA game is usually produced by very big company to feed they worked.

    And an small indy team, do not need to produce AAA to feed their family.


    Conclusion :

    Salary in a AAA company are always similar as the indy team.


    Then each side can finance Maya or 3dsmax... and Photoshop!!!
     
  5. LordMoggy

    LordMoggy

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    That day is coming....And the name of this Sage to bring it is LordMoggy :wink: :D :twisted:

    As for the guy and gal scenario i do both!!! 8) :D

    Nothing Like Being a BadBoy 8) :D
     
  6. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Running out of arguments, eh? I bet i have more finished games than you ;)

    I´m not talking about AAA, i talk about graphics that can be called graphics. And not just placeholders where the user has to guess if it is a horse or a solider.

    Tell me how to create a Normalmap from a tesselated sculpted hig poly mesh in Fragmotion or Milkshape. Ah, doesn`t work? No sculpting in Fragmo. What about at least unwrapping? Ever heard about LSCM? Fragmo has the standard mapping methods only.

    Tell me about all the poly tools in Fragmotion or Milkshape that makes modeling possible at all. Edgeloop? Faceloop? Grow Shrink Selection? Hide Geometry? Mirror Modeling? Not with this limited tools. You can be happy that you can move single vertices at all.

    You know just Fragmotion and Milkshape. And you are not willing to even think about learning more. I know Fragmotion and Milkshape. But i also know lots of other tools. I am able to compare, you not. You simply don`t know what you are talking about here my friend :)
     
  7. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Either a literal translation does not make sense in english or you simply did not get the point
    saying
    There are two categories of guys :

    The guys who speak of girls
    and
    The guys who speak with girls

    I meant that many people seem to give an extreme importance to " esoteric " topics while to develop a game you must take care of a lot of trivial stuff

    I wonder therefore wether these guys have actually ever finished a game

    I was talking about games, I was not talking about graphics
    Of course you must distinguish an horse and a soldier
    but the most important point is interactivity

    I can play for hours a game with an intriguing game play even though graphic is not at the top,
    I would quit it after a few minutes , the other way round

    Last
    You are hypersensitive...arent' you :wink:
     
  8. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Not really. It just sounded exactly that to me: running out of arguments, and telling a little story instead :)

    While at wondering. I just wonder what makes it so hard for you you to follow good advices. What is it that lets you stay with ancient, uncomfortable tools and slow workflow? What is it that makes you even think that this is the better alternative? More than one graphics artist has told you now that you are at the wrong track. And we talk about graphics here :)
     
  9. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Why is it so hard for you to that other people may have different opinion ?

    Again . :x ..Nope we are talking about games here we are not talking not about graphics

    If you are alone, you must organize your time and resource in a intelligent manner if you want really finish a game
    In other words you must accept some compromises otherwise you are simply an unrealistic dreamer

    Nobody answered my question
    Why none of the games in the Unity game list has a top graphics ?

    Simple, because the authors can not afford to waste plenty of time ( or money in case they are not good arist ) for some thing which is important but not that important as many people assume

    You may argue that 3DMax or other appliaction can be of use even to create relatively simple graphics
    uhmm ......I tend to believe that , generally speaking, the tools must be consistent with the results you want to achieve

    The question is not :

    Is Blender better than Fragmotion ?

    Of course the answer is , yes it its

    The right question s

    Is it worth while using advanced tools to create relatively simple model and animations ?

    I dont mean that the answer is No..
    I mean that there are pro and con
     
  10. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Of course we talk about grapics when we talk about making graphics. And you better listen to a graphics artist in that case then, and not to a programmer instead.

    I don`t have a problem with that. My problem is with wrong arguments and lack of knowledge.

    Indeed.

    But you still don`t get the point: that`s why i use the faster tools with the better workflow. I grab the tool that does the job best. Means when it`s in reach. I simply cannot afford the big boys like Cinema for example. So i have to look for cheaper toolsets. That`s the only reason why people end at software like Milkshape or Fragmotion at all.

    Would you program in Windows Editor? Okay, let`s say Windows Editor and a compiler. Hey, it does the job, and you can write code. And it´s enough when i follow your arguments. Why waste the time to learn more?

    No, you will definitely not do that. You will grab an up to date development environment like Visual Studio, with syntax highlighting, and all those other useful gimmicks like a browse tab for functions, debugger etc. . Because it is faster to work with and has the better workflow. And when you have just a bit of a clue you will also tell others to go that route instead using Windows Editor and a compiler.

    Same here with making graphics.

    Fragmotion is definitely the slower and more cumbersome tool to model and texture with. I would even say also the more cumbersome to animate with, compared to other solutions. Lots of things are even impossible to achieve with it because of the limited toolset. The bones system is the only really useful part.

    And Milkshape is simply outdated. It has a ton of im and export formats though. Which makes it still useful to some degree, in case you don`t have other software that does the same job.

    Limit yourself to those two tools is the wrong compromise.

    When you lack of money, then grab at least Blender. It`s free. I would start with 2.5 though because of the new UI. It is not longer this cruel to handle. Or grab the Softimage XSI Modtool. Also free, also a full featured app. I would even name trueSpace here for modeling purposes. But there is just the Workspace only version left for download, and i cannot recommend this version. The development is stopped anyways. See, there is more than one alternative.

    That`s simply not true. Unity is not just hobbygames, it is also in use for commercial games. Which doesn`t work with placeholders. An example:

    http://starwars.lego.com/en-US/FunAndGames/CloneWars-Quest-For-R2D2.aspx

    And there is still a big difference between top graphics and useful graphics. No matter how hard you try to push the discussion in another direction. When you need top graphics then you better hire a top artist, and don`t try to make it by yourself. When you want to make useful graphics, then that`s a different story. And that`s what we talk about here.
     
  11. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Nope I dont absolutely agree

    In a professional team you can distinguish graphics and programmers
    At an hobbyest level you must take care of everything
    You must find the right compromise betwenn graphics and programming

    Specialists's suggestion might be deceiving, a specialist being somemtime a fanatic who gives an extreme importance to details simply because he ignore all the rest being focused on his specialization

    I have been repeating and repeating that I was talking about hobbyest programmers only
    Not to mention that the "Starwars" models and animations dont look that impressive

    However my point is :
    Suppose that a beginner ask you a suggestion

    " I want to learn how to make a game
    I would be happy to make something like the ones in the Unity game list "

    What would you tell him ?

    Shell out 4000 usd for 3DMax ?
    This is a fanatic suggestion

    I would rather tell him

    a) Download the Unity tutorials and games
    Go through line by line
    Grasp the function of each Unity command
    Try to edit the examples

    b ) Purchase a simple graphic tool
    download the tutorials
    Make some simple model and animation

    When you are familiar with a) and b) try to develop your firts game
     
  12. Tudor-Nita

    Tudor-Nita

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    Your example makes sense somewhat. That is, if b) were: don't pay anything and just use Blender which is actually more than decent nowadays.

    On topic:
    If money is a problem stick with Blender. You can actually live with the UI since 2.5 and it is more or less full-featured.

    If money is not a problem then you can't go wrong with either Maya or Max.

    The really important thing about them is not that they're better or shinier, it's that they're specifically developed for production environments. The fact that they have an almost endless knowledge base also helps.

    p.s: keeping a keen eye on Blender development. If things move fast enough, it could give the autodesk products a run for their money in 3-5 years.
     
  13. Tysoe

    Tysoe

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    @Alberto T: Even hobbyist artists with good tools are capable of creating decent graphics these days. The tools have gotten so much easier. You really can't say 3dsmax is only for movies when games have long been one of the focuses for it's development.

    3ds max poly and try modeling tools are very good and were developed for games long before the movie industry used them. In the past movies focused on spline and nurbs modeling which helped maya get a big boost over max which was weak in that area and strong in tri modeling.

    It's only fairly recently that movies started using poly modeling more thanks to subdivision modeling tools, loops and rings and the powerful tools and normal maps. Things developed originally for games have started migrating to movies so tech is flowing in both directions.

    Professional 3D apps also offer realtime shaders, ambient occlusion, realtime shadows and lighting in viewports as you work including the usual, normal, specular, and diffuse maps so commonly found in unity games.

    Tools like 3dsmax also have other benefits over things like milkshaps. Like being able to UV map multiple (seperate objects) simultaneously on one texture page instead of having to do each one individually. GREAT for texture baking something that many of the tools you mention can't do because they don't even have a renderer.

    The animation tools are very good too. Max has biped but also CAT (character animation toolkit) which includes excellent procedural walk designers that include settings common to games like walk, run and strafe. Making developing looping animation for games dead easy. Especially combined with layers.

    Max even has a excellent node based CGFX shader editor available for free if your a hobbyist individual or work for a company of two or less. It doesn't support Unity because unity chose not to use industry standard formats like CGFX of HLSL .FX, DXSAS etc but it's still a great starting point and enables artists to see how their realtime shaded characters and environments would look in realtime whilst modeling complete with lighting and shadows.

    How can that not be easier than only being able to see your work after exporting to the engine and then going back and reworking.

    If you are a serious hobbyist wanting to create quality games with the hopes of eventually working in the industry. Work as a freelance artist doing contract work for indie developers and other developers or just a student studying art for games. You really should be using industry tools that make your job easier and don't waste time.

    Something that gets more valuable as you get older and have more and more demands piled on amongst all the other responsibilities like paying bills, maintaining your property,marriage, family, children, pets etc.
     
  14. Tiles

    Tiles

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    He still don`t get it :D

    Alberto, i need five minutes in Blender where you need an hour with Fragmotion. When you get the job done at all. That`s what i talk about. I am faster, i am more efficient. I have up to date tools. And you still tell me i should use Fragmotion instead because i am a hobbyist? That would be crazy :)
     
  15. Tysoe

    Tysoe

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    And blender is free too, so there is no excuse not to use it over something as primitive and old school as Milkshape. Milkshape is more reminiscent of the 80's early 90's with the minimalist and most primitive tools by modern standards.

    I can't say I'm a great Blender fan, but it's very capable and punches far beyond what the price might suggest :) I actually remember blender in the mid 90's when it was still a commercial product doing the trade show circuit complete with box, paper manuals and everything :).
     
  16. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Ok friends, it is evident that I can not explain myself
    Thanks for your patience, anyway, to try to explain to me that Max3d and Blender are better than Fragmotion :D

    My humble opinion however was that many people , particulary here on Unity ,give an excessive importance to the graphic aspects of a game

    In my holidays I read the book
    "Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI "by Dave Mark
    It covers the psychological foundations of human decisions

    In these days I am trying to apply what I Learnt to my game

    I wonder how much time the Blender gurus have spent to get familiar with this kind of stuff

    In my opinion this stuff are much more important that any bloody shader

    A game first of all must be playable

    In conclusion I don waste time to go through the thousand or so Blender push buttons
    I use simple graphic tools and I use my very limited free time to learn something much more useful
     
  17. WinningGuy

    WinningGuy

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    AlbertoT, there are many types of people that use Unity. And many, if not most, are not in an identical situation to yours.

    Even hobbiests may have one or two friends that they are making a game with. And quite often, at least one of those people has their primary skill/talent/interest being art.

    This thread is about best of breed tools for art. Not about the philosophy of solo game development.
     
  18. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Everybody has already understood your point. I even share it. It is just that your conclusion is wrong :)

    It`s like stating that riding a horse is much better than driving a car. Hey, you don`t need to learn driving, do you? That`s wasted time. I have a horse already. That`s good enough. And this horse rides a dozen miles per day. And you totally overlook that once you can drive a car, you can drive hundrets of miles per day ...

    When it comes to modeling and texturing, then Milkshape and Fragmo is the horse here. And Blender the car.

    That`s what i mean with wrong conclusion. It is not wasted.

    You spend the time to learn this tools once. After that you are faster and more comfortable and efficient with modeling. From now on, after you have trashed Fragmo for modeling and texturing, you have MORE time to learn something much more useful. And this adds with every graphics you do.

    It is just a few buttons that you really need to learn for box modeling. Ignore the rest when you don`t need it as long as you don`t need it.

    The funny thing is, we all talk about the same thing here. How a lone wolf organizes itself best to save as much time as possible so that he is able to finish his game. It`s just the detail where we have another opinions here :)
     
  19. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Up to a certain extent I can agree with you even though I guess that many people here are working alone

    If the question is , what's the best of the best for...? well of course the best graphic tool is 3DMax

    However I dont think it is philospy to suggest beginners how to optimize their time and resources

    I have been accused to be more programming than artistic oriented
    True

    Nevertheles I would not suggest a beginner to use C++ instead of JavaScript, just because all commercial games are written in C++
    The advantages of C++ over JavaScript being just details

    Some fanatic programmers consider JavaScript and Unity just toys for kids
    I wonder if these guys have ever finished a game

    In my opinion the artists here make the same mistake

    Most of the Indie Games dont have advanced graphics thus the mastery of an advanced 3d tool takes plenty of time but it is not definitely a must

    There are many other topics which are much more important for the developing of a playable game
     
  20. WinningGuy

    WinningGuy

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    Very often, even with simple games, the best tool for creating art is the one that will allow you to create the art quickly and efficiently.

    Robust art packages that include things that we don't need also happen to also include better tools for the things that we do need.

    For artists, learning a limited an archaic program will not improve their skills as an artist the same way that knowing C++ helps a programmer. The C++ equivalent for artists is a pen paper, paint, or sculpting clay. After that is mastered, then the best art tool to use is the one that could allow the artist to create art without getting in his way. And the higher end tools do a better job of doing that.
     
  21. Tiles

    Tiles

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    The mistake is at your side. You talk about opinion. A guess. I talk about experience. I know both, your limited toolset, and the "big boys". I am able to compare, able to tell what is better because i know it. I`ve used them.

    There is no best graphics tool. There is just the graphics tool that does the job best. This can be Max, but this can also be Modo, known as a fine modeling software. Or Cinema, known for its easy handling. Or Blender, known for its big boys toolset and its price. Or Silo when it is boxmodeling only. Or ...

    Milkshape and Fragmo are at the other end of that scala though. The tools that does the job worst.

    It is also for a beginner a good advice not to start with crap tools. It is a tendency for beginners to end in using crap tools though. Because the good tools costs usually money. Blender is an exception here.

    But you would suggest to use a good IDE. And not Windows Editor. Because you program long enough to know that Windows Editor sucks for programming.

    I make graphics long enough to know that Milkshape and Fragmo for modelling sucks.

    But it`s a must to let crap software go once you find something that does the job better.

    The reason why they don`t have advanced graphics is because they most likely never listened to good advice, and wasted their time with tools like Milkshape or Fragmo for modeling. Then it`s normal that then there is no time left to make advanced graphics.

    I have to say it again and again. Your calculation is wrong. You also spend time to learn the crap tools. And that one is the wasted time.

    Nobody tells you that you need to master a 3D software in all its areas. There is stuff that even i haven`t touched yet because i simply don`t need it. But i would never ever think about going back to the early 90`s, and use modeling tools like Milkshape and Fragmotion. This is the new millenium. No need to work with medieval tools.

    Yeah, back to the text games! Who needs graphics in a 3d game :D

    Ah, i give up. Ride your horse my friend :)
     
  22. Tysoe

    Tysoe

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    Milkshape is a bare bones old school style modeler, basically the equivalent of MS Paint for 2D. Ore notepad for text editing.

    It may take a little extra investment in time to learn some of the more powerful tools in a high end app, but most of them are there for good reason and aimed squarely at optimizing work flow and making things easier for the artist. Sure you can make nice models with milkshape if you have time and patience. Many of us have neither.

    Ask yourself how long it took you to code and what you would reasonably do without. Art is just the same. Why do we use Unity? mostly for all the shortcuts and power it offers with seemingly minimal effort. As an artist I picked it up and made my first game in a month. Invest a month learning a good 3D app and it will reward you in the same way.

    If you have the time to struggle with a basic modeling tool and limited tools you probably have the time to learn something better and will start to reap benefits within a few days.
     
  23. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    This is remark would make sense, if supported by evidences

    I remain of the opinion, that generally speaking, it is a mistake to use sophisticated tools to accomplish simple tasks

    However ,let's make an exercise
    Herewith atttached there are some screen shots taken from " Marble Blast "
    It is a great Indie game, which has been ported even on XBox

    May you explain to me with concrete examples what kind of advantages can you expect from 3Dmax in the development of a Marble Blast like game ?
     

    Attached Files:

  24. WinningGuy

    WinningGuy

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    Compared to what? Milkshape?

    What would your workflow be with that?
     
  25. Tysoe

    Tysoe

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    Compared to Milkshape Max's object and subobject snaps combined with shift drag to instance an object. So you can Shift drag an object by a vertex and snap it to a vertex of another object. Shift drag and snap, shift drag and snap will let you build a level from blocks very quickly without being limited to a grid and uniform size objects. You would only require one of each level mesh to be loaded into the scene.

    Actually this is one of the new cool features that has been added to Unity 3 editor but has been in Max for at least a decade and max goes far beyond that with edge snap, mid point, tangent, center and a whole bunch of other things.

    Instances created with shift are equivalent to Unity Prefabs and reference the original object and memory with custom user properties. Not that unity itself supports loading instances from external apps but other engines like Ogre3D do and Unity might now that the 2011 FNX format supports instances.

    Thats one basic Max feature I have been using for years which you won't see in Milkshape. Marble Blast levels would be a piece of cake and probably easier than the torque engines editor to lay out since you have all the power of multiple selections and selection sets, layers etc to play with.
     
  26. Tysoe

    Tysoe

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    We actually tried to reproduce some of max basic editor settings in a custom Ogre3D scene editor before we decided to ditch ogre for Unity. You can see some of the shift drag snap stuff with multiple selections here

    http://www.youtube.com/user/antmax?feature=mhum#p/u/16/awmsY0_U2HU

    We didn't have subobject snaps so this is just snap to grid a bit like unity really. A attempt at reproducing some of 3dsmax functionality in a game editor, was pretty cool about a year ago lol.
     
  27. Tiles

    Tiles

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    You talk to the artists here. You talk to the specialists here. The ones who should know it. They all tell you the same. Since pages. And this is still no evidence to you. No matter what we say, you will never be convinced.

    Well, graphics artists are not stupid, they are clever. They always search for the fastest way to finish a job. That`s part of the best way. That`s part of being professional. Time is money. This counts also for "simple" graphics.

    Anyways.

    Point snapping was told. I add edgeloop or faceloop selection for modeling.

    UV Mapping is an area where Blender or a unwrapping software like Ultimate Unwrap 3D could be speed up things dramatically in your example. In Milkshape and Fragmo you need to map every face manually, or in best case you can apply a cubic, cylindric or spherical mapping to a selection or the whole mesh. In Blender you have more than one way to do the mapping automatically in nearly one go. Dependand of how you want to map your mesh.

    Another point. What do you use to create your textures with? Windows Paint? Making the textures is as important as making the 3D part. It is in fact even the more important part in Low Poly Modeling.

    There is nearly no alternative to Photoshop. So in case you have the money it has of course to be Photoshop. When not, then my recommendation goes to software like Paint.Net or Gimp. Not nearly as powerful, but better than nothing. Of course, also here you have to learn the more advanced toolset first ...
     
  28. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Ok my friends , you convinced me
    3DMAX is not a redundant tool even to create the artworks attached to of my previuos post
    I am going to shell out 4000 usd :wink:
    ...And I will cut my steak with a laser beam
     
  29. WinningGuy

    WinningGuy

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    lol

    Or you could use Blender.
     
  30. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

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    Bright idea
    Good for memory, all those nice push buttons
    How many ..one thousand ?

    Why should I keep using that toy like and obsolete scene editor such as 3d World Studio ?
    Just because I can design those scenes in 10 minutes time ?
    Just because it cost only 50 usd ?
    No, my friends ,I took a decision I will never come back
    I go for 3DMAX
     
  31. Manishtushu

    Manishtushu

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    Blender is free. The point people have been trying to make for the past three pages is that you shouldn't pay for an out of date piece of software like Milkshape when Blender is free and has the functionality of $1000+ 3d packages.

    I've been sitting here for about five minutes trying to decipher this. I give up.
     
  32. Tiles

    Tiles

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    There is nothing really to decipher. In short he is saying since pages that all graphics artists at the world are morons because they use tools like Max or Blender. They are all wrong. And that he, the programmer, is the only clever graphics artist at the whole world. He knows best :)

    Nobody told you to go for Max. Everybody told you to go for the EASIEST tools that does the job BEST.

    This can be Max. This can be Blender. Or something completely different.

    But it is definitely not the most limited software with stoneage tools only. Like Milkshape or Fragmotion.

    Oh, 3D World Studio? Where does that little rascal come from? Haven`t seen it in the whole discussion. Well, the answer is easy: keep it when it does the job best.

    But try to model a character or just a tree in there and you may notice why you may need another app too.

    Blender 2.5 has a nice UI nowadays, everything is well organized. No need to learn hundrets of hotkeys anymore, or hunt through dozens of menus for what you are looking at. Just remember, how do i enter the Edit mode, in which menu part are the modeling tools, and then you finally need to be able to read. When the label says Edgeloop then most likely you have a edgeloop tool here. That`s Amazing! What comes next? Colour TV?

    Even you should be able to learn and use that :)

    Okay, it`s not THAT easy. It`s 3d, means it will always be complex and complicated. And not everybody is happy with Blender or Max.

    But there is still lots of other stuff around. trueSpace is freeware, and still useful in case you have downloaded the version with Modeler and Workspace. At least the modeling tools are good. Then there is low to Midware like Hexagon and Carrara (you can still get an older version of Carrara for just a few bucks in a 3d magazine. I think 10 euro or so). For Modeling you could have a look at Silo. Still worth a buy. When you have the money and look for an easy to use 3D Software then Cinema 4D could be your best bet. And it was mentioned before that you can`t really go wrong with the Autodesk packages. (Means when you love bugs, hehe). And so on.

    There is more than one choice. And nearly every choice is better than Fragmotion or Milkshape.
     
  33. Tysoe

    Tysoe

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Posts:
    577
    When I was using the Mac for a short time I used Silo and Ultimate Unwrap. The first for modeling the second for UVmapping and exporting. That proved a pretty good combination for static scenery etc.

    I'm not sure what I would have used if I was doing animation or needed to bake textures which would require a pretty decent renderer.

    At the time Blender had a pretty nasty UI. (I haven't tried the latest version)
     
  34. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Posts:
    2,473
    As told before: the new Blender UI from 2.5 has changed alot :)

    Just curious, what do you use instead UU3D now?
     
  35. Tysoe

    Tysoe

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Posts:
    577
    I went back to using Windows and 3ds max. the mac was an interesting experience but I kept feeling held back because a large chunk of my every day software wasn't available.

    I initially considered the mac because I don't play games as much as I used to and I was interested in iPhone development.
     
  36. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Posts:
    159
    From an Indie forum about the most suitable graphic tool

    Nothing special, just common sense
     
  37. Tysoe

    Tysoe

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
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    What does indie mean to you? The vast majority of successful indie developers are professionals many with industry experience. Often older developers like me who quit commercial development once they settle down get married, have kids or whatever and find that they want to do their own thing.

    I use 3ds max, if you do contract work you can get the money to buy it or finance the purchasing of it within a month or so. If your a student you can use it at college or get a much more reasonable educational price.

    Wasn't so long ago you could lease Max for about $115 a month including free updates. I think thats stopped now but thats less than a lot of people pay for their TV or phone plan.

    There is no right or wrong tool just some are better than others. The correct answer is whichever program you have the time to learn and use. Sure you can make game art in milkshape, even great art but it will be far easier in a more advanced tool and the advanced tools will let you grow as you projects become more demanding. Something like milkshape will get the basics out with a lot of sweat and tears and is very limited if your using modern tech thats freely available to indies today.

    If Milkshape is the limit of what you feel capable of using then it's the right tool but it is FAR FAR off of being even a competent modeling tool by modern standards. With indie games the goal posts are moving fast, more and more veteran developers are teaming up and creating games that use modern tech where a professional 3D app is the best tool to use.

    Just look at how many entries there are to IGF compared to say 2004 and how much higher the bar is raised each year.

    I made my first indie game back then using blitz3D over a period of 3 months and my coding partner submitted it to IGF where I think it came 4th. Featured on G4 gaming TV channel. Things have changed so much since then. Just look at unity and all the modern tech it gives developers at a very reasonable price. And how easy it is to use? even an Artist like me can create games using it without a dedicated programmer.

    If your going to make games and have all the latest tech available to you, you might as well try and use those things that make your game the best it can be, my advice is to get a proper 3D tool and learn it but only if thats something that interests you. otherwise maybe you should find an artist to collaborate with who can use the proper tools and help improve your game.
     
  38. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
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    Why are you so unbelievable focussed to Max? It`s only you that introduces this name again and again in this discussion.

    Besides that, the next sentence in this quote you introduce was:

    Cheaper tools he says. See? The only thing the original poster really moaned about was the price. Blender is still free. And with its new UI in 2.5 better to learn and to handle than the old version. There`s not longer a this steep learning curve.

    By the way. The thread you have quoted from was a thread about Poser or DAZ vs Max/Maya to create some content for a isometric engine. Problem is, you don`t model or texture there, neither in Poser nor in DAZ. You don`t create your own art with such tools. You just use other peoples content there. Poser Base Mesh is too high poly for 3d game content anyways. And also the Daz characters are normally not suited for 3d games.

    So you quoted it out of context, and you quoted it in wrong context too. That`s always a bit of a problem with quotes. But this one is too obvious. So we finally reached the point of dirty tricks because you already failed with your wrong arguments :roll:

    Original thread can be found here: http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=22000
     
  39. AlbertoT

    AlbertoT

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Posts:
    159
    Tiles
    Please , dont let emotions prevail over rationality

    I asked a question

    Most of the Indie games dont have advanced graphics
    Why ?

    Your answer was

    I do hope that you accept that such answer is a nonsense ..ok, you were tired... no problem

    There are thousand Indie game developers around
    Do you seriuosly claim that all of them have not been yet so lucky to listen to your advice ?
    The true reason is of course different :

    a) They dont have enough skill to create high quality graphics
    and/or
    b) They dont have enough time to create high quality graphics
    and / or
    c) They can not afford to buy high quality graphics

    Last but not least

    d) They dont deem that "graphics " is the most important factor of success
    in other words
    Should they switch from a poor graphics to a good one they would double their costs / time but they would not double their turnover
    Should they switch from a good game play to a poor one they would halve their cost / time but they would halve also their turnover

    You can play for hours a "Marble Blast " like game even if it is just a bunch of polygons covered with textures
    How many minutes would you play a game (better, a virtual reality project ) which is good graphic only ?

    Indie programmers simply concentrate their efforts where they can get great benefits with minimum efforts
    The strategy of a professional company is of course different
    their mission is the excellence in every aspect of the game
    It would be stupid for a small team to fight on the same terrain with the big boys
    Indie comapanies target a different audience

    I suppose that you dont yet accept my point
    In your opinion even a small team could also develop games with excellent artworks provide they switch to Blender or similar tools
    A part rom the fact that a lot of them probably are already using Blender but their artworks remain poor :)
    Apart from that, I said, you got the answer

    " 3DMAX does not have magic buttons "

    It is matter of common sense

    P.S.

    Those who, in good faith, suggest to go for Blender or 3DMAX or... even to create simple stuff, do not realize that they are more familiar with Blender than with other tools
    As simple as that
     
  40. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
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    Repeat the same nonsense, ignore arguments, repeat the same nonsense, ignore arguments, repeat the same nonsense, ignore arguments ... and you tell me about rationality? :D

    You still haven`t answered me how you are able to compare at all when you don`t even know other software. I can compare, i know, i have tested and used a ton of 3D software in the over 10 years i make graphics now. Including Milkshape and Fragmo.

    Nah. Nuff said. To answer here again is wasted time. I told it a few pages before. No matter what we say you will never be convinced :)

    Ride your horse my friend. Stay in the medieval. Go on to create crap graphics with outdated tools, in double and triple time than it would really be necessary, and good luck with it :)

    For all others, please don`t do it like Alberto. That`s a negative example of how you never should do it. You just waste lots of time and energy that way. When you don`t believe me, then believe the other artists that has answered here in this thread.

    And when you don`t believe them neither, then believe at least the successful creators of games. Ask them what software they have used. I highly doubt that you will find just one successful indie game that has used Milkshape nowadays. Well, maybe as a converter. And maybe even Fragmotion because of its bones system. But never ever for modeling or texturing. That would be pure nonsense.
     
  41. LordMoggy

    LordMoggy

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Posts:
    72
    If you want the write app then get one thats preferably free otherwise get one thats close to your budget and learn it well and make a show reel otherwise the employer wont give a S*** about you or your so called make believe skills!

    I recommend :

    Silo3d, Messiah Studio and 3d-Coat as a good pipeline combo!!!! These guys are priced on a budget which can still get the job done!

    Failing that go for Modo or Cinema 4d. F*** the rest the Death Star that is Autodesk is consuming all it in its path to rule the Galaxy!

    If you like Lightwave and Blender good luck learning all those buttons which could take centuries to learn maybe ask the prophet for help! Hey Nostradamus you here?
     
  42. joedgrant

    joedgrant

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2010
    Posts:
    23
    Switched from xsi to blender, took me about a week.
    I've been doing 3d for 15 odd years now, professionally, film and video game, so I had a bit of a head start.

    I'd put blender easilly on par with anything else on the market. One thing that really did it for me? Was the ability to switch it over to maya style navigation. I really didn't like it's interaction model up until recently.

    To reiterate: There isn't much you can do in any autodesk package that you can't do in blender. Most of it has to do with tools that automate process for film, such as face robot and the like. (Soft tissue simulation) that you'd have to rely on proper rigging to do in blender.
    To the 'Only bad 3d from blender' crowd... Sintel, Big Buck Bunny, the blender forums at cgsociety and the like... It's the artist, not the tools. There's no 'un-suck' button. I've had to instill that in students again and again. 3d is 3d. Regardless of what package you use. Learn the processes and the medium itself, and it won't matter what you use.

    Edit for less smarminess.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011