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Join us for #SRPLife Week!

Discussion in 'General Graphics' started by jbooth, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. spryx

    spryx

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    I'm a little bit surprised that by now, no UT staff have even given just a little bit of feedback.... (we hear you at least).

    We have one of the best asset store devs trying to be a force for change, and it is crickets...except for the community.
     
    R0man, Ruslank100, Cynicat and 8 others like this.
  2. jbooth

    jbooth

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    I am not surprised, unfortunately.
     
    Ruslank100, NathanielAH and Cynicat like this.
  3. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Also, we've heard empty "we hear you" so many times, I don't know what another one would accomplish.
     
  4. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Anyway the smoking gun was always that even unity couldn't maintain their own demo across versions of the engine.
     
    R0man, Cynicat, Garen_ and 3 others like this.
  5. jbooth

    jbooth

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    Or even the assets they sell on the store..
     
    R0man, NathanielAH, Cynicat and 7 others like this.
  6. DeathRace26

    DeathRace26

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    I regret buying all the assets on store.... But meh, i quess i will do full rewrite of them to unreal... Atleast i learnt something
     
  7. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    Man this thread is depressing to read.
    I think we should keep the #SRPLife alive for as long as it takes Unity to reply to the problems stated here.

    I'll give it a few weeks and then i will have to make a painfull choice if Unity doesn't supply a satisfying reaction...

    Edit:
    Maybe i should add that i was a 4.6 Pro customer, then 5.0 Pro and now Plus subscriber for as long as Plus exists. So when i leave that will actually affect Unity in some small way...
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  8. corjn

    corjn

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    Same here, I won't hold my breath hoping Unity will fix the mess they created. If they don't fix their rendering workflow within a year, I'll start my next project with godot or UE5.
    We are profesionnals, we can't keep using a broken and barely evolving engine when competitors are making incredible progresses (like godot and UE) in simplifying devs lives. Especially with the new console generation coming very soon.

    I really hope Unity will wake up because I love using it, I love it's interface and it's community. But I would not be very suprised if it becomes a minor engine in the coming years.
    Blender became a huge 3D software in like, a year, it also can happen in the game engine world. I seriously think an open source software like godot is a big threat for Unity, maybe for the best. I'll never regret stwitching from Maya to Blender. It was a relief.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  9. JoNax97

    JoNax97

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    I agree with keeping the avatars and keep making noise until there's an actual, non-empty response form unity. Maybe we can go ask some questions to the thread they started about SRP surface shaders. At least some devs are hopefully receiving notifications there.
     
    knxrb likes this.
  10. Elringus

    Elringus

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    I'd also suggest mentioning this topic in the signature; it's updated over all the past posts, will help with the exposure.
     
  11. Andrew_Bowell

    Andrew_Bowell

    Unity Technologies

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    Hey - we hear you, I am talking with the Graphic product managers now to see what makes sense to get more involved here.

    Thanks,
    Andrew.
     
  12. BattleAngelAlita

    BattleAngelAlita

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    @Andrew_Bowell
    Try to not overreact:)
    Jbooth asking for Surface Shaders 2, but i afraid that became another 5-year project.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    ledbetterman likes this.
  13. jbooth

    jbooth

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    I mean, I've basically made that for my subset of MicroSplat- without it, every asset store developer has to basically develop it themselves.
     
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  14. OCASM

    OCASM

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    The graphics product managers:

     
  15. Rich_A

    Rich_A

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    How about the graphics product managers themselves get involved here? The feedback has been pretty consistent. Hire Jason Booth as an expert contractor for one year and get him to do all the dirty work if the Unity team doesn't want to.

    Unity's key strength is the community (although that was partially decimated with the shutdown of the Jobs Board) and the asset store creators. In my past working history as a Product Manager it would be a dream to have customer feedback and actual technical solutions and suggestions so clearly and sensibly expressed - rather than customers who just silently don't like the product, leave, and you're left scratching your professional head about what happened.

    We are facing a once-in-a-generation transition of projects and store assets from built-in to URP/HDRP. Any quick wins that can be adopted *now* will yield significant benefits for the future. Otherwise the asset store will be forever littered with half-broken assets, that the creators could never update for SRP, diminishing trust (and spending).
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  16. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    As someone who spent thousands of bucks on hundreds of assets, i can confidently say that most of them are not working anymore and probably never will work again. Mostly due to the changes in the render pipeline(s).
    So, naturally, i am VERY reluctant to spend any more money on assets other than 2D graphics, 3D models or audio.

    Of course one could say that i should stay with an older version of Unity, but i want to stay on the bleeding edge of things, no matter if it is a 'sensible' choice, or not. And i bet 'enthusiasts' like me make up a large portion of the store sales.
    Before the number of render pipelines exploded, you could get pretty much every asset to run alongside any other.
    Now you need a different version for every asset, so you either stay with an old Unity and asset version, or make everything yourself.
    Blaming it on the Asset Store devs is also not an option, because noone can justify spending three or four times the development time on their assets (Old, LWRP, URP, HDRP). Especially since that also fragments the user base of the asset, effectively increasing the amount of support it takes.
    It even gets worse when you consider that, at least URP and HDRP, are changing constantly, further increasing the fragmentation.

    So i can imagine that the Asset Store already took a huge hit in sales. For anyone at Unity who was wondering why...now you know.
     
    R0man, Ruslank100, Cynicat and 3 others like this.
  17. Rich_A

    Rich_A

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    Even just a standardised checkbox/table on the store pages - does this work with BuiltIn, URP, HDRP, and for which versions of the editor. Right now you have to read through the description to figure this out (if the creator has listed it).
     
  18. ROBYER1

    ROBYER1

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    Edit: Someone has already made a wonderful pull request for this as I was figuring out how to do one myself, please go and give this some love:
    https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/Graphics/pull/720


    For well over a year, Speedtree shaders in UniversalRP didn't sample ambient light (and they still don't) and also bake completely black for some reason but they look just fine when using URP-Default shader. I just found out this was a 2-line code fix thanks to @StaggartCreations here
    I kicked off enough about it over the past year that it's been given an issue tracker case



    https://forum.unity.com/threads/urp-terrain-lightprobes-for-speedtree7-8-shaders-bake-black.833083/

    To think a high majority of foliage and environment assets on the asset store use Speedtree shaders, I was stumped for well over a year on why my environment assets looked so different to the built-in renderer. Even Speedtree customer support acknowledged the issue but said they had no control over fixing it or helping Unity fix it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
    R0man, Ruslank100, banan1234 and 4 others like this.
  19. JoNax97

    JoNax97

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  20. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    I hope he is too, but even if something is to come out of that, you realise it's going to take at least a couple of years, right?
     
  21. jbooth

    jbooth

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    recon0303 likes this.
  22. JoNax97

    JoNax97

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    In any case I realized it could be an opportunity to be face to face with the graphics team
     
  23. recon0303

    recon0303

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    ha, we been giving feed back for over a decade.... They just don't care...
     
    R0man likes this.
  24. recon0303

    recon0303

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    no offense but we heard this before when it came to the Substance support, and the networking side...I remember how many years it took for the terrain collider issues, some of us been here for 14 + years, and frankly I just don't trust it anymore... There is a lot of us, who still want to see Unity do well, because then we can...but you guys are making it easy for us to use other engines. ( I know I have for 20 + years, and others have anyways.....but, I see why companies tell me no....not to use Unity... You guys, really need to work with developers more....that produce games, content..... (I hope this time you prove me wrong...I really do.... We don't say the things to be jerks, a lot of us have a lot invested into Unity... but, our patience is growing...

    So it would be great to hear something soon, you guys know this has been a problem for months and months now... Unity really should consider, using there own engine and make games as we do, so they can really see what it's like.... in the industry, we do use our own engines, and we know every weakness, and are able to fix it with teams much smaller than Unity's... and we are making games, so still will never understand why its not something Unity has ever considered.....
     
  25. Tim-C

    Tim-C

    Unity Technologies

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    Hi everyone. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback on SRP's with us. We really appreciate that you are sharing openly and we want you to know that we are listening. We want to do better to be transparent with you about our thinking and planning for Graphics features, specifically with regards to SRP. With that in mind, we have created a thread where we are sharing an in-depth look about what we are working on with SRP and how we are thinking about the future. Looking forward to further discussions and feedback. Please keep it coming!

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/wha...nity-with-scriptable-render-pipelines.924218/
     
  26. DeathRace26

    DeathRace26

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    And my comment on unity yt channel highlighting these issues just got deleted.... What a surprise
     
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  27. Circool

    Circool

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    I've lost a week trying inplement OIT in URP and failed. Returned to default renderer.
     
  28. francois85

    francois85

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    @Tim-C Has there been any discussion on just locking verified packages to a LTS Unity version and leaving the flexibility of current package manager as is to the tech streams instead of adding SRP to core?
     
    R0man likes this.
  29. Tim-C

    Tim-C

    Unity Technologies

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    For clarification: Do you mean that lets say we have Unity 2019LTS - we enforce all packages released until the next LTS to be compatible with 2019LTS?
     
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  30. francois85

    francois85

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    Essentially yes, seems like the exact same thing as shipping with core. For me I love packages and the flexibility they offer and I dont want to lose that.

    Also in my projects there are more to balance than just SRP versions, I fear that trying to get compatibility for a particular bug fix would inevitably lead to upgrading Unity, opening up another can of worms for my other packages. I know if SRP is core we can still override it but then I dont see much point shipping with core as appose to just locking it down in the package manager to a Unity version.
     
    R0man likes this.
  31. CDF

    CDF

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    avatar_change.gif
     
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  32. Tim-C

    Tim-C

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    The goal we have here is to do is create a golden path for well defined compatibility but still allow for advanced workflows for users that want to lock in versions for things. We feel that this strikes a balance between both those goals. You won't be required to upgrade your unity install to get access to newer graphics package code, but a general user will get updates just like with normal features.
     
    ledbetterman likes this.
  33. francois85

    francois85

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    I’m going to trust you guys on this and go with it. Thanks for clarifying
     
    ledbetterman likes this.
  34. Tim-C

    Tim-C

    Unity Technologies

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    It will be a fine line to walk and we'll want feedback if it's not working for you. Let us know.
     
    ledbetterman likes this.
  35. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    Just want to say hi and I support Jason initiative in making SRP better.
     
  36. arkano22

    arkano22

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    Hate posting only to say "same", but same. You're not the only one who cares about this, Jason. I think that better compatibility between Unity-authored SRPs is a must, not only store developers will benefit from this, but also the average user.
     
    Ruslank100 likes this.
  37. recon0303

    recon0303

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    Aye, this is why those left in production, left...I know the 14 years I been here, every person I worked with refused to use this engine anymore..I have used many engines over the years, and people are just fed up... and its not just SRP related issues either..... this is the problem...

    But I seen a person post about assets, why people don't buy them......well I think its unfair, to the asset devs as I see them getting torn into pieces over stuff that is beyond there control............ Unity should be posting something, as its ruining peoples reputation....its another reason, I don't recommend this engine much anymore when consulting or doing work.....


    I doubt it will change....personally...and with UE5 coming ....( I been a UE USER also 15 +
    years, they are going to pound the indie market more.....So Unity, better rethink there process....the ignoring isn't going to work or just getting buy isn't going to either....
    also we have Uni, which is just as easy to use as Unity, and now free... and an asset store coming too.....

    SO Unity better wake up...or there gravy train will end...
     
    R0man likes this.
  38. GuitarBro

    GuitarBro

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    arkano22 and ROBYER1 like this.
  39. Dawie3565

    Dawie3565

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    keep up the good work Jason
     
  40. recon0303

    recon0303

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  41. Alan47

    Alan47

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    I fully support this cause. As a hobbyist indie dev in a one-man-show project, I really can't afford to deal with upgrade pains and features going missing. SRP is a mess that needs to be cleaned up, by yesterday. It is by far Unity's biggest issue at the moment.
     
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  42. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    Because they don't want to.

    The real problem is that we're not the target anymore. Unity isn't trying to provide us with a game engine, they're trying to get new subscribers. That's why HDRP looks great and easy in Unity's videos while being a source of complain for developers. it's meant to look good, not to be finished.

    It's not the first time this happens, collaborate is a total joke for everyone in the industry, yet they continue to pretend it's used by professionals. Same with the "new" UI, feedback from users wasn't positive, yet they forced it on us.

    One of their latest announcement is the acquisition of Bolt. Who needed that? Name one company that had a meeting and said, "we could work on Unity but we'll choose Unreal instead because we can save 50 bucks". Now, how many teenagers in their mum's basement commenting "Unreal is better because Blueprint is free" on youtube?

    Let's face it, Unity isn't providing us with new features but themselves with what their marketing department needs to please young hobbyists. That's why we, professionals, are seing such a drop in quality.

    I hate to say this because like most of you, I have invested years of experience and a lot of assets on the store, but that's what it is. I'm just looking at their actions here.

    I don't know about you but the last improvement I benefited from is the new prefabs almost 2 years ago. Since then, I cant' think of anything new that was useful. Not saying they didn't provide upgrades but nothing that I could make money of.

    Right now, I'm paying a monthly subscription but am not getting anything in return. What about you?
     
    Coroknight likes this.
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