it's time for Unity to stop and rethink is it worth developing hdrp or new pipeline

Go back and read his statement on how it improves flexibility.

 

Yep.

Somewhere in depth of my mind there's now completely useless skill of programming in hexcodes on a calculator, octal commands for a 16bit minicomputer nobody here heard of, turbo pascal, delphi, then asm shader programming for PS 1.4 ("phase!") and a lot of other useless stuff, like maintenance of Slackware linux, and writing shell script traffic accounting filters for iptables, or making plugins in C++ for 3dsmax 5. Oh, and basic dialects for minicomputers, working with ms-dos 13h mode, manual generation of shadow volumes, writing collision queries by hand and millions of other things I forgot. Fun.

It is a hamster wheel of learning and forgetting. Heck, in a decade both unity and unreal might get displaced by a currently unknown technology which uses quantum coprocessor for 11-dimensional raycasting. Or something. So it is business as usual.

And if we're talking about book suggestions,

Spoiler

I'd recommend:
Dragon's Egg (1980) and Blood Music (1985)

 

Also, if you can't afford artists, maybe its worth spending some time learning it?

I've never invested in art heavily. Pick a style that doesn't suffer from the lack of it.
And make it a strong point instead.

Make your own art.
It may seem like a daunting task at first, but in the end it just boils down to the creativity, tools, and time spent.
Plus once you've established a working art pipeline for yourself, its pretty much same tasks everytime.

Sure it won't be AAA, but it will be unique and will have a soul. That what niche indie market likes anyway.

Not every game should be AAA realistic clusterduck. Some games are meant to be exactly that.
Games.

Focus on the gameplay and polish. Focus on the strong points instead of weak ones.

 

No. When a thing you spent time learning is no longer useful, you're likely to feel that you wasted your time studying it. Been there, done that.

I believe I already explained you part about flexibility.

Basically, this is harder to do in unreal engine compared to unity:

 

Thanks for sharing. I will think your method..

 

I think flexibility means working process, not result.

 

Tutorials work as advertisements to some degree, and they have meaning. If Brackey begins to make Unreal tutorials, do you know what willl happen?

No need. I confuse urp and hdrp.

But users can jump ship.
In China, I saw one post by another people. He said he has contaction with many studios. Using unreal is increasing from 15% to 30%.

 

Yes. I am new to configuring piepline.
I have no idea about it now.

 

You're being disingenuous. Ive never seen UT claim that URP was designed to exceed built-in for quality.

They basically say URP is designed to be universal; to be scalable to 'any' hardware. HDRP is designed to be where the big improvement in graphics lies.

URP is not 'the' replacement for built-in. Its 'a' replacement.

And because of SRP, they needn't be the only two replacements. Technically, developers are able to extend or customise URP or HDRP, or build their own alternative.

This is a big improvement in pipelines.

 

Not by indies, presumably, since they seemingly don't have art teams.

 

Indies can't afford art teams before game releasing.
"The scroll of Taiwu" were sold more than 2 million coplies in China. The team increases from 3 people to 30. Now the arts are imporved a lot after releasing. It's made by Unity.
The game is about Kungfu, but it can't provide arts for fighting scene.
The stroy
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/45256903

https://store.steampowered.com/app/838350/_The_Scroll_Of_Taiwu/

 

Another indie game sold more than 2.8 million copies in different platforms. And it is made by Unity.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/736190/_/

 

What do you think the word 'indie' means?

 

And yet Antichamber is an Unreal game (maybe even UDK actually?)

 

Based on his responses? Dirt poor programmers.

 

yeah, seems so. i was kinda wondering if he genuinely thinks it means 'amateur' or 'bedroom programmer' or something similar.

 

In China, it is.
"The scroll of Taiwu", the sole programmer left the team in the middle of development. And the team producer had to learn Unity to continue the project.
The stroy,
https://www.sohu.com/a/256564849_100163069

Because in China top bestseller games are made by amateur not professinal, many people don't think good game are only made by professionals.

And the forum for indies, very different backgrounds.
https://tieba.baidu.com/f?ie=utf-8&kw=独立游戏

 

Bingo. Dirt poor programmers keep using Unity, while rich programmers don't.

 

Very good. Frustrated users have many ways.

 

Unity Market strength: bigger community size and assets and tutorials
Unity tech strenght: low barrier for new users

 

Factors listed by you in "market strength" don't really matter, aside from MAYBE assets.

Because most of the time you will be working on your own, solving problems by yourself, and doing so by reading documentation. "Community help" is vastly overrated in pretty much all communities.

Why do you keep repeating "in china"? China is not the whole world.

Also, someone who is dirt poor while calling themselves a programmer, have bigger things to worry about.

Learn english, freelance, earn money, when you're stable, make a game, turn it into a business, and respect copyrights and other people's work along the way.

Trying to make it rich out of bedroom programming by making a hit game will fail. And if you're treating gamedev as a way to make it rich and want to repeat accidental successes of a few individuals, then it is not how it works.

 

Because Ryiah and sxa have different definiton for indies. I think indies of other countries can't afford art too, but Ryiah and sxa said I was wrong. So to distinuish them.

 

It's true. But we can learm many things from the stories of success or failure. Others' expirence is also helpful.

 

I can find many helpful resources from Github or assets store. But I can't find so many resources for Godot.

 

Godot has worse documentation than unity.

One of the most important parts of an engine is documentation, and unity docs approach Qt docs in terms of quality. The reason why documentation matters is because that's where you'll be looking for help when community inevitably fails to assist you.

No, there's only one definition, and that's the one they're using. Your definition is incorrect. "indie" is not "someone who is dirt poor", it is an independent developer not funded by a publisher. They can have savings, they can have day job and so on.

Not really. Read all you want about Bill Gates, you won't become Bill Gates 2.0 yourself. Because in order to become Bill Gates, you had to do the right thing, at the right time, right place and with the right skillset, as there was an opportunity open just for a brief moment. He took that opportunity and it no longer exists.

------

I feel like there's a lot of complaining in your posts and complete lack of desire to do anything about it. Do realize that unity owes you nothing, and you're the one responsible for your well being and achieving your goals.

"but there are dirt poor programmers"... they should work towards earning more money and fixing their situation. Programmers are always needed.
"But they can't afford art..." they should save up to hire a proper artists or learn to draw themselves.
"But in china..." why the hell should it matter? If you can't find talent in china, try another country. You have internet access, use it.

 

I quote "dirt and poor" from Ryiah, doesn't mean they are really dirt and poor. Comparing to big studios, indies look dirt and poor. That's my meaning.

Same.

I know many of them are students or juts working full time on the work. I doublt the success rate of day-job indies.

the story with Same prequites and same year.

 

On this topic:
Not to mention, if you are poor and you can't afford help, you cook with what you have. There are a lot of genres where you virtually don't need art-work or you can get away with "programmer-art". Concentrate on your ideas and choose those what you can afford to do, put away the rest for those times when you can afford an artist and whatnot.

Just two quick examples of great games and they got away with programmer-art (and this does not mean that they didn't polish their look, it means they didn't need extensive artist help to achieve their aesthetics): Thomas was alone and Super Hot. And there are many more. Indie developers often proud of the creativity they overcome challenges. Be like an Indie!

 

I am watching the long locked thread
"Unreal Engine 5 = Game Changer",
https://forum.unity.com/threads/unreal-engine-5-game-changer.889501/page-36
and
"Unity acquires Bolt",
https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-acquires-bolt.880273/

I think I am in an average user mood. I have said in this post I still use Unity to complete my game.

 

Good suggestions. Art is not my topic, and it's a side product of one talk.

 

This. We're all born ignorant but the OP has shown that he has a desire to remain ignorant and not accept anything anyone else says. I'd say he's trolling but he's clearly too ignorant to do even that as every attempt at trolling on his part has been very pathetic.

I stopped caring about his responses and any attempts to try to assist him a while back. My sole reason for continuing to post in this thread (and some others he creates) is to provide accurate information for the people that do care that stumble upon them thinking he knows something no one else does when in fact he's very ignorant.

 

I don't know what you mean. How my topic is related with trolling? I use story and metaphore to express my idea. There are some culture and lagnguage barriers between us. I think the issue is not that big.

 

No. It's more than just cultural and language barriers. You have an unwillingness to yield when anyone says anything you disagree with even if it is very sensible. Meanwhile we have other Chinese developers here who have shown a willingness to learn from others. It's clearly not cultural or a language barrier for them.

 

Could you list those things you told and I disagree?

 

I'm not referring solely to the things I have said, and if you need examples just read every thread you've ever created. The whole nonsense about indies being unable to afford art is the simplest example of a blatantly untrue statement.

 

Nearly. My meaning is Unity spent a lot of time and cost on the new pipelines, and developers have to pay the check finnally. That's why Unity charge for many things.
But the strength of Unity is not in Graphics or pipelines. Does "Power of Season" gain advantage by adopting new pipeline?
The bestseller games made by Unity don't use graphics as main selling points. These games focus on story, or mechanisim, or art design or .....many things except realistic visuals.

 

Has it seriously not occurred to you that the choice to go with the new pipeline is an indicator that they couldn't make the game they wanted to make with the built-in pipeline? Because that's basically the same conclusion my company came up with when it came to achieving the graphics we wanted to achieve. We needed the HDRP. Built-in wouldn't cut it.

 

OK. I don't know how to use URP.
I wll learn.
I think One of advange of old Unity is low barrier for new people.

 

They shouldn't stick to tool when they want to use graphics as the main selling point.

Why Unity has the same thoughts with a small team who wants to achieve realitic visuals by Unity? Unreal can do this, and it's not Unity's business.

 

Unity still has that low barrier for people. Very little has truly changed to make that not the case. Getting started learning while using the new pipelines is no different than it was with the original pipeline. We import meshes, assign materials, create and adjust cameras, lights, etc almost exactly the same way we did with the original pipeline.

Once you've learned the basics picking up the intermediate aspects of the new pipelines are no different than when we had to learn the intermediate aspects of the original pipeline (eg post processing hasn't changed in a meaningful way).

Finally there are advanced concepts like creating your own pipelines. I have yet to reach that point and considering I'm not an artist and don't have the math knowledge that I need I doubt I'll ever do it myself, but in theory it's all there ready to be picked up and many people have already done so.

 

That's 'dirt poor' not 'dirt and poor'. 'dirt poor' is another way of saying 'very poor', not 'dirty and poor'.

If you're using 'indie' to mean 'less poor than a big studio' please stop. There are plenty of words and phrases that could be used, but using indie isnt one of them, so you're confusing the issue by doing so. Try 'low income' or 'nonfinanced' or something that actually means 'doesnt have much money' rather than something which means 'doesnt have a publisher'

You can be working with a minimal budget even though you have a publisher. You can be rolling in cash without one. Indie still means 'independent of a publisher', not 'low/no budget'

Note : having a publisher isnt the same thing as having someone who will sell your game for you. That's a distributor. Steam, GOG, itch.io are distributors.

The games industry is structured similarly to the book and music industries; publishers are the financiers of projects. If someone has a publisher, then the publisher is the one who finances the development of the project. These are basically loans against expected profits. Different industries structure this differently, a record company 'advance' is a particularly brutal cross between loan and indentured servant-hood. And at the end of the day, being signed to a publisher means the publisher calls the shots. ( eg If your game is going to take 6 months more to complete than you told the publisher, the publisher could stop paying the studio. You may not own the IP for your own game, so they could hand it over to someone else to finish it. The publisher could even sue you for loss of earnings. So you'd be dirt poor -and- not indie and not own your own project any more. Sound attractive, doesnt it?)

Plenty of writers, musicians, and game companies, operate outside this kind of system these days. Generally, brand-new musicians, writers, game developers, have no choice as they're not yet 'signed.' Oftentimes, what they're aiming for is to be signed, though. Sometimes they're not, they actively want to be independent.

But in games development, not everyone want to make their own game, many developers just want a job, so go work for a company. Sometimes they change their mind. Many experienced people who have already been in a situation where they've been financed via a publisher/studio decide they want to 'go solo'. Many of them can find enough money from other sources to bankroll a project to take to a distributor (or even some a publisher).

That's why 'indie' means a specific thing. Because publishers are an intrinsic part of this very large industry, and being independent of them fundamentally affects the way a game company has to consider finance. Its not about having money versus not having money. Its about where that money comes from.

 

One of the strengths of unity lies EXACTLY in Graphics or pipelines. See my earlier post about flexibility.
Flexible rendering pipeline is a feature that Unreal engine does not offer.

If you want pretty textures, then it is only a matter of having an art team and enough money. And not of the engine.

Did you know that Subnautica and Subnautica Below Zero was made in Unity?

 

Thanks. I am waiting 2019LTS stable.

 

Thanks for clarifying. Here ,indie is a selling point for local game, so many local games are published in the label "Indie game".

Thanks for the info.

 

Yes.

OK.Thanks.

 

https://blogs.unity3d.com/2020/06/09/unity-2019-lts-is-now-available/
https://unity3d.com/unity/whats-new/2019.4.0

 

Thanks. I will wait one month.

 

It's stable now.

 

OK. Thanks.

 

It's crashing multiple times per day for me, but I'll happily accept at this point that our project may be cursed.

Going back to the main issue.

It would be great if the two SRPs were consolidated, but I guess it's a big technical change to do that now, I guess our best bet is when they deprecated URP and HDRP and make a new SRP...

In the meantime, I think it's super awkward to have to choose really early on to either exclude a lot of platforms, or just not look as good as you could.

 

Being cursed is a very real possibility. Our boss is constantly having odd troubles with the project like the controllers not being recognized despite using the same controllers as the rest of us. He's running a dual-Xeon workstation he uses for rendering so it's also possible that it's just very picky when it comes to your hardware.

Meanwhile the rest of us are running either normal gaming PCs or Apple computers and have had no real problems.