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Is there any money in the indie PC game market?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by dl290485, Sep 24, 2018.

  1. dl290485

    dl290485

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    I'll start out by clarifying I'm mostly curious more than anything else. Not asking for advise planning my career or anything.

    But to the question; Is there any money in the indie PC game market?

    It seems to me that the easiest way to jump right in to making money as a small games producer is to target the mobile market. I mean first off, just about everyone these days has a smart phone literally in their hand right now, or by their side, or in their pocket. To highlight my point then I give the silly example that if you wanted to release a game on an Atari now you would struggle because only collectors and museums have them, so you'd need them each and every one of them to pay hundreds of dollars per game copy and still wouldn't make a living.
    I think it also makes it easier when you can actually release a game for free then use the (widely accepted and network supported) format of watching ads or doing micro transactions to unlock more from the game.

    I think a lot of people these days also prefer consoles over PC. Of course I'm not a survey company or anything though.

    So how big is the PC market? How far does it narrow down when you branch into different game formats? Would you have to try to go really mainstream and find the right game format to meet a big enough market, or how likely would it be that you can just have your own creative vision and preferences and make a game around that?

    I'm not sure what else to ask yet but if anyone can give some insight into this general topic then I'd be interested to know about it.
     
  2. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Once upon a time this would have been accurate. That ship sailed a long time ago though and we're now at the point where you have to work at it just like you would if you developed a game for any other platform. If you want some reading material on the subject I suggest you start with this thread.

    Some developers who have been creating relatively low effort games are seeing their income from them dry up.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/sudden-drop-in-number-of-daily-installs-on-google-play-store.537467/

    Yes, but you have to work at it. Simply creating a game and releasing it won't work. You need to market it too. Below in the spoiler is a video covering the success rate of games released on Steam for multiple approaches (eg no marketing, self-marketing, having a publisher, etc).


    Consoles are even worse to get into because the manufacturers have licenses you need to acquire. Generally speaking the process is to create a legal business, create a good prototype and/or have past releases, and then request licensing. Some are more difficult to acquire than others but there isn't much that can be said because it's almost entirely NDAed.
     
  3. Nlim

    Nlim

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    These are just my observations without any data backing it up but the great upside with the pc market is that you can market your game more on the ground level (youtubers, reddit and other communities etc.) since there is a more active discussion around PC games. So if you fill a specific need and spread the knowledge in the right places than those communities will spread your game activly.

    On the flip side with mobile games it seems to me like you are heavily dependen on the mercy of the store algorithmen. Also this may just be my ignorance since I am not really into mobile gaming but I don´t even really see where you would advertise your game outside of buying ad slots to shove in peoples faces and maybe attract some gaming journalists.

    Consoles seem very hit and miss for indies from what I have seen. They have the upside that there is some level of discussion around them like for PC games and some indies really made it by having a good promtional deal with the console owner (Super Meatboy on Xbox comes to mind altough somewhat outdated example) or by landing early in the console cycle (see Nintendo Switch). On the other hand the console market seems to care a lot less about indies.

    As for the type of games the biggest varierty is still on PC. So chances are you would have to compromise your create vision the least. Altough there are still lot of considerations to make if you want to make a profitable game. Personally I found this video from the developer of the crypt of the necrodancer very enlighting on the issue:
     
  4. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Yes. Yes there is. I can say that with 100% certainty. Because it's a market.

    >It seems to me that the easiest way to jump right in to making money as a small games producer is to target the mobile market.

    Have you TRIED scrolling through games list on a a mobile store lately? The amount of "games" itself is something to behold.
    Lemme just check the store real quick...
    ..aaand cancer obtained. Same 5-6 games are on top for months/years and the rest is just bland sludge of terrible clones and time wasters that barely scrub a living. And that's the top 1%.

    >I mean first off, just about everyone these days has a smart phone literally in their hand right now, or by their side, or in their pocket.

    Yes. And they play games that everyone else plays. Nobody is going to play your game.

    >To highlight my point then I give the silly example that if you wanted to release a game on an Atari now you would struggle because only collectors and museums have them, so you'd need them each and every one of them to pay hundreds of dollars per game copy and still wouldn't make a living.

    What's your point here? Because if you just called PC market obsolete, even by implication, we're gonna have a problem.

    >I think it also makes it easier when you can actually release a game for free

    Well, yes, bad games and 5 minute time wasters are easier to make.

    >then use the (widely accepted and network supported) format of watching ads

    That's not a benefit. That means you won't only be competing for player's interest but their time as well.

    In conclusion, you will be going up against highly polished products and established products to hit top 1% on the store. Because nobody scrolls long enough to get to the second percent.
     
  5. BlankDeedxxAldenHilcrest

    BlankDeedxxAldenHilcrest

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    Games get old, games get beat, games take their place, games get bought. Markets are organic.
     
  6. dl290485

    dl290485

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    There's a market for human flesh too. Ever met someone selling it or wanting it? What do you think your chances of making a living out of it would be if you started today? (spoiler: < 0.0001%)
    Sure, that's a fair point. But as some more perspective on that side of things, I've seen someone (who also commented here) say in another (similar, but not specific to PC) thread say that over 7k games were released on Steam in 2017. So my point with this is saying it's not like only the mobile market is flooded (though not saying it's not more flooded possibly).
    ...on their mobile. As in, they have a mobile...so can play mobile games. Know how many Xbox games I have? Zero. I don't own an Xbox.
    No, you missed the point. Let me give another example; I don't know what percentage of PC owners have VR, but it would be a fraction. I mean for a start a lot of general PC owners don't have "VR ready" systems, and buying the actual VR system probably costs about as much as they already paid for said system and, how much, like twice or three times as much as a console? My point is saying you have to start with a number of people who can play your game, because you will never even reach that full figure anyway because those people will have to also want to play the game, and so on.
    No, this is false. My kids play very well made free games. How much is Crossy Roads? Free. So is Sling Kong, Rodeo Stampede, and a bunch of others. Sling Kong never forces you to watch a single ad, instead if encourages you to do so on your own free will. Even with this, it doesn't give you anything that you can't actually get by just playing the game. It's just a bit of a shortcut (not even a massive one, so not forced in any way).
    Still not necessarily true, see the above again.
    Is that not exactly the same case as with Steam?
     
  7. dl290485

    dl290485

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    I don't think this gets to the topic though. I mean a large portion of games taking the place are made by companies with dozens of employees and big business budgets, TV ads and all. Also, games played where? On Atari's? I mean all those games are old, so I guess I'll make a new title for that system and strike it rich?
     
  8. BlankDeedxxAldenHilcrest

    BlankDeedxxAldenHilcrest

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    No, game types. I'm just saying there are recurring game themes in the world that are constantly bought and that it's hard to say which one is going to be popular next. I didn't even say anything about team size so that's clearly projecting, but yeah sometimes it takes a lot of people to fill the role of one great designer.

    Edit: Also, maybe. I mean I just played Shellshock Live earlier today. I really don't understand you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  9. dl290485

    dl290485

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    I think it's just you are talking in a broader sense so not specific to indie nor specific to PC.
     
  10. dl290485

    dl290485

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    Pretty interesting. I think that video does give me a fairly good impression about the topic that has me curious.
     
  11. dl290485

    dl290485

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    This video is pretty informative too.

    I think if there is one thing I've learned in the topic I put forward, it's that Steam allows people to buy games, but it is not where you sell (as in market or be found) games. It seems also that a lot of small developers will be working out of passion and/or second income, but people who get right on their business (as well as have talent/inspiration) still can do well as a career without joining a big AAA studio. But I'm getting the impression it's not something you can just dabble in, unless you really don't care that your game never see's the light of day and/or doesn't give me any money worth noticing.

    I think I've also learned more about how a flooded market plus the phenomenon of mobile gamer not being 'real gamers' (to quickly characterise the situation) means that market is maybe even tougher than PC? The whole situation of mobile gamers only using the app store and not looking in to games, vs PC gamers who follow news, talk more, and etc, about the games they are interested in.

    I think I seen first hand what you mean about the early part of the Switch cycle. My house got one when it was pretty new and were then shocked and disappointed by the lack of games to choose from. We thought it was great that games could be bought straight off the store, but then after we looked at literally every single title there and it's description/video ended up thinking...wtf? Why do they all look like S***ty Mega Drive games? Certainly saw the whole indie and retro/low detail range and got the impression that they would only sell because the 'real' games weren't out yet. Not saying that indie had to be S*** but I mean they looked more at home and viable just because of the lack of competition for the whole console at the time.
     
  12. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Money isn't even real.
     
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  13. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Your labor isn't real.
     
  14. BoogieD

    BoogieD

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    Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
     
  15. FMark92

    FMark92

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    That's ok. I have enough hotels on red and orange now.
     
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  16. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    True. But people will give me real food because I changed a few bits in a computer somewhere indicating the transfer of imaginary money. I like food.
     
  17. Billy4184

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    Of course there is money in the PC game market. There is no such thing as no money in a market, the profit vs quality just becomes more and more like this:



    The beautiful thing is that if you're somewhere in the top 10% or so, you never have very much to worry about (because the market will probably correct somehow before you really fall down the hill). It's everyone in the middle that get tossed around.
     
  18. AndersMalmgren

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    Quality and Profit has zero correlation sadly. Very bad quality games turn out with huge profit and vice versa. Market economy does not favor quality sadly.
     
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  19. dl290485

    dl290485

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    I would disagree to the money in a market just because it's a market bit, but yes this graph does visualise one part of the story I'm seeing repeated. That for a large portion of indie developers there is in fact 'no money', as in they will struggle to make a full time livable wage from it, but at the same time the indie's who act like a big organised business will still do well for themselves. It's not enough to just make a good game but you have to know the actual industry and make good business decisions as well.
     
  20. Billy4184

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    Unless you're conflating quality and morality, I disagree. All the skinner box games out there that are doing well, are very high quality ones.

    But in any case, high quality games in any genre that has had successful games in the past can certainly do well. Sometimes there are high quality games made in genres (or at least particular sub-areas of genres) that are not particularly successful, and they tend to be beautiful failures, like the Titanic.
     
  21. Billy4184

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    Good games usually happen to coincide with good business decisions, or they wouldn't be good. If you call a game that is not made with the 'industry' in mind (by which I assume you mean the customers preferences/interests) a 'good' one, then by which standard is it being measured?
     
  22. Nlim

    Nlim

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    Isn´t this just a tautology? Good games sell well and games which sell well are good. Whatever the standard may be I doubt that you will find many who will agree on this one.
     
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  23. AndersMalmgren

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    I know games with very low quality that are the top selling ones in their genre in VR. So no, quality and success does not go hand in hand.
     
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  24. Billy4184

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    It's very hard to conceive of a measure of 'goodness' that is not a measure of compatibility with the general player experience. So that's a good place to start. The great thing though is that if a developer is brutally honest with themselves, I think they can provide a good estimation of the quality of the game in this respect by their own reaction to it. It's very hard to do though.

    There's always a reason for failure - or success for that matter - if you look hard enough. And it's rarely found outside of a product itself.
     
  25. frosted

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    The thing is - there's more than "success or failure" - there's a wide gradient and plenty of grey space. If selling 10 copies is a success, is selling 9 copies a failure?

    In real practice, in the grey spaces between viral breakouts and the buried, many different elements contribute to pushing a product more in one direction or the other. The market now on Steam is far, far more demanding than it was 4 or 5 years ago. Even in the last 1 or 2 years, the market has really shifted. What could have been a success a few years ago, could today be a failure.

    To say that success or failure is rarely found outside of a product itself is naive at best. A dramatic oversimplification.

    We like to think a "good game will be successful" - and there is some truth here. A good game certainly stands more chance than a bad one. But when we define "good game" with a tautology - that success determines quality, what value does that hold really?
     
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  26. AndersMalmgren

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    Humans are flock creatures, if something gets moving it can achieve success without being good. Offcourse it's a higher success rate for good games (or atleast I hope so) than bad ones. But a bad game can success as well as good game and vice versa.
     
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  27. frosted

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    My point is there's a much wider gradient between "good" and "bad" and success and failure. Games aren't inherently good or bad. A huge amount depends on the final polish and time. A point worth noting is EA, a couple years ago what was acceptable at EA and what's acceptable now has shifted. What may have been "good" then might not be "good" now.

    I think that many more games hover in that grey space - the point of a 70% positive review on Steam for example. Is a 70% positive "good" or "bad" and why exactly?

    If it got to 75% would that be good?

    How much would that shift have effected the sales? Was 70% a failure while 75% would be success?

    Would another 3 months have made a 70% game into a 75% game? Is a a "bad" game if post release that additional work is added in patches?

    Obviously, this is a subject I'm pretty intimate with, right now I have a game that has a lot of promise, but also has too many rough edges. Too much lack of polish. I would hesitate to call my game "good" or "bad" - its unpolished. How good or how bad will depend on the ability to polish what's there in the time I have, and most likely at release it will be a mix of both good and bad.

    There are a lot of marginal games between huge successes and asset flip trash. Most serious efforts will fall into that middle ground, and in that middle ground the inherent quality of the product itself isn't the only measure of it's potential success or failure. There's a lot of factors. It may feel empowering to say that "if you build it they will come" but the reality is that there's so much more that goes into it than that.

    Especially when you're operating in that grey space.
     
  28. AndersMalmgren

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    Steam reviews doesn't say much about a games quality sadly. Its like with imdb reviews, often good movies get low and bad movies high, metascore is more correct because its professional reviewers.

    edit: Actually a avarage between meta and imdb score is most often correct
     
  29. Billy4184

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    That's a fair point, but I really do think that you can 'oversimplify' the problem to basically a question of product quality, as long 'all else is equal' in some sense. As long as you do a normative level of marketing, efficient budgeting, and things like that, it really does come down to product quality. The way I think of it is that a product that is good markets itself, as long as it is not otherwise handicapped in the race. If it is handicapped, its quality might only be enough to normalize that handicap, and not to actually win.

    That's my point, in the middle of that curve you get tossed around by all sorts of things, so the idea is to get near the right end where it doesn't move around so much.
     
  30. Billy4184

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    But what makes it 'get moving'?

    Besides, this is the middle of the curve, where the outcome experiences maximum movement from all sorts of factors. If your game is really good quality in a successful genre, you really don't have to worry so much about all that.

    If you're Usain Bolt, you don't have to worry so much about everything being perfect (and you can eat chicken nuggets for breakfast) but if you're in the middle of the pack, everything you do (and a lot of things that you don't control) can shift your outcome one way or the other.

    I guess my point here for this thread is that there is always 'money in the indie PC market' or any other market for that matter, if you're ahead of the pack.
     
  31. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Games as a service say "Hi!" - most of the top % are one of those, perpetually gaining new content, new game modes, new customers, they are living things.

    Example: It's shocking how much Fortnite changes every couple of weeks. Endless content pumped in.
     
  32. AndersMalmgren

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    Thats impossible to know on beforehand, if you knew, it wouldnt be hard :D
     
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