Is Blender intentionally designed to be difficult to interact with at first?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you are in the group that immediately ran into performance problems, never bothered to fix it, and gave up in ten minutes.

Draw, clay, smooth, crease, inflate, scrape, flatten, pinch, grab. Then there's what? snake hook, peak/noise, layer... I'm missing, what, two or three, one of them's probably mask? There aren't many and they aren't exactly complex. Also I thought the multires modifier was around before sculpting was.

You have completely missed the point on this one. The issue is not that changing modes is difficult. The issue is that the next step is always in another mode. If you are working on an armature, half of your time is spent in edit mode, while the other half is spent in pose mode. Unless you know exactly what you are doing, you will be bouncing back and forth all the time. It only gets worse when you get to weight painting.

Are you sure Blender isn't meant to summon Cthulhu?

 

Wait what?
I remember a time when in 3dsmax, you were REQUIRED to finish modeling before doing skinning (or you would simply lose your model), and you are pretty much required to finish skinning to do animation (aka pose, so it's really a non issue. If you go back and forth you might have issue with modeling period and didn't plan ahead your model and are basically fooling around aimlessly (which is what sketch and concept art are for). Seems like a problem of methodology not software.

 

I've wasted ton of time looking through various 2d software in the past, looking for one that works for me. Krita was among programs I evaluated and hasn't passed the evaluation. Clipstudio did, however. It is possible that the software has improved since, but at this point I have no intention of trying it again. I kinda liked easypaint more, but it was glitched due to GTK bug on windows platform, so I dropped it.

Blob, Brush, Clay, Clay Strip, Crease, Fill/deepen, flatten, grab, inflate/deflate, layer, mask, nudge, pinch/magnify, polish, scrape peakse, scultp draw, smooth, snake hook, thumb, twist.

Multires uses same sculpting tools as sculpt mode.

This does not match my experience. If you're working on armature, you'll waste 90% of time in pose mode - animating the damn thing. Switch back and forth is infrequent and you're supposed to know what you're doing.

It is a tool. If you don't like it, use another one. I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be. Maya/3dsmax/modo are still available, if you want them. The philosophy seems of blender seems to be "swiss army knife", and it works fairly well for this purpose.

 

I can't stop laughing on this

 

well, people do animations for film

i just don't see how this is something that bothers you
i've been using blender for many years now, even professionally, and this is something that didn't bother me in the least
same thing for the game engine

 

It's bloatware. Instead of solving one problem that all of it's developers know that they are trying to solve, it's a collection of features loosely derived from features it already had. Blender's developers are not there to make it better, but to make it bigger.

Did you know that Blender makes a great margarita? Don't know the shortcut?

I don't care what it's like in max.

So "nothing is wrong here. If you don't like it, F*** off." right?

 

I mean you are going too far in one extreme, blender is not the end all of all 3d software, but's it's not th eturd you claim and that's why he's pretty popular among free modeler. Stop being an extremist. It's fine.

 

3d modeling software does not solve only one problem.

Blender at this point is almost a platform that contains ton of stuff that can be used for different purposes. It is used for archviz, rendering, gamedev, comic book production, film, etc. Heck, some people even managed to design clothes in it.

It isn't very different from 3dsmax/maya, by the way. Those packages have even MORE stuff in them. In fact, most packages related to 3d evolve into a behemoth sooner or later, as people find new and never seen before ways to use them.

Well, getting angry because you don't like a free tool is not gonna solve anything. I can use it and it works for me, that's what I know.

Anyone can wish for a world where everything is clean, fast, logical and well designed, but this future isn't gonna happen. We live now. This tool is free and can pretty much go toe to toe with commercial packages that cost hundreds of dollars or have subscription.And that is quite amazing.

If you don't like something, you could try fixing it, contributing, or hiring someone to do that. If you don't wanna do that, there are other packages available.

Use whatever works for you and whatever is available right now. Getting annoyed over something is ... not very useful.

 

Also blender is only 84mo, which is way less than the multiple GB of other soft, that's very compact for a bloatware.

 

Blender should serve two purposes: 3D asset creation and rendering 3D assets. If anyone is using it for any other purposes not directly related to those two things, I seriously have to question why. How is it possible for Blender to offhandedly be more useful than tools dedicated to that task?

Here's the catch, are people finding new was to do the same thing they've been doing, or are they finding features for entirely different purposes? One of these empowers artists right then and there, while the other might upend an entire production pipeline, if it's good enough... It probably won't be.

Thing is people don't tend to catch what the "free market" argument says about themselves. The "it's a free market. If you don't like it, don't buy it" line is a polite way to say "I don't have the problem. You're the one with the F***ing problem." It's actively trying to push people away for the sake of pretending it doesn't have flaws.

And let's be clear, what options are there? You can be a monthly money faucet for Autodesk, you can join the Blender community that jizzes themselves over the pretty new feature that 90% of its users will never use, or you can build an asset pipeline brick by brick which will optimistically cost ten times as much as selling your soul to Autodesk.

I know we are all reaching the hyper-literal retardation phase of this argument, but the thing being bloated is the feature list, not the file size.

 

The exact same thing could be said about many terminal commands. 'ls' ('dir' for windows users) has a ton of options that I've never used. I do have a small subset that I use daily and occasionally I refer to the help for something else. Pretty much every computer program has features that one group of users will use and another group won't.

Blender gained it's game engine over 20 years ago while it was still a closed source application. I think the video editor has a similar vintage, though audio support didn't come until 2.28 - it's why calling this stuff bloating seems like trolling to long time Blender users. This stuff has pretty much always been there for us and we've seen the improvements and direction (Blender 101) they are taking over the years.

There's always Right-Click Select to test out your ideas to improve Blender.

 

Erm, who are you to decide that exactly?

Due to existing familiarity with the package. New dedicated tool has learning time and since it is dedicated, it can do one thing. Meanwhile you can take something you're already familiar with, tweak it a little, write some glue code and get result that is good enough - faster than if you wasted more time going after the "dedicated tool".

One good example I can think of, by the way, is Marvelous Designer. It is dedicated sewing pattern program with a cloth sim, fairly expensive one. Cloth sim is quite performant, etc. Blender also has cloth sim, and it is at least 4 times slower.

However, if Marvel's tools dedicated to patterns themselves .... have significant shortcomings. There are no linked duplicates, automatically mirrored fragments, etc. Also, have you ever tried to tie a knot with mouse in 3d program? So, in situation where you SUDDENLY need clothes, you could use blender 3d and do this:

In a farily half-assed way. And it will work.

Even though it isn't "supposed" to be used this way. And it will be good enough.

The history of mankind revolves around misuing things in creatively unintended ways. So I'm not sure what the problem is.

Never said a thing about free market. Not sure how it is related. The program is free, so there's no market. However it is the case of "I don't have a problem, and I'm not sure why you're upset".

Erm. My recommendation would be not to join any community and work on your own. Communities are heavily overrated.

The community owes you nothing, and hold no obligation. The program is provided without any warranty of any kind, and is not a product tailored to suit your needs. It exists, because people work on it - for fun. For their own fun.


I think the main issue here is that you want blender to have a purpose.

Blender doesn't have any purpose. It is a piece software that can do X, Y and Z. (and half of bazillion other things). And it is up to you to decide what to do with it and how to utilize the features. You're given possibilities. It is your choice to decide which ones of them to use, how, and what for.

P.S. Also, my personal suggestion would be to chill a little. No offense intended.

 

Bforartists ?

 

I could tell you about my use case of being below poverty line, having no stable internet connection that make dl difficult, and how a workflow that allow me to stay inside a single software that don't explode my famelic RAM of my cheap computer, by allowing me to not have 10 thousand software open at the same time, which makes blender the perfect fir for gb to function ratio, but you are insulting me and my intelligence, hey whatever.

 

They are making it easy for beginners, why complaining it's totally free and even best than Maya on many aspects.

 

I don't think being free, or even being better than other software makes it immune from criticism. I do think sometimes it cops more than its fair share of criticism though, being free and often the first choice for aspiring artists.

The only other 3D software I have used significantly other than Blender is Lightwave. I think the interface is better in Lightwave, especially to learn, but I also found that it crashed a lot, whereas blender is rock-solid stable.

 

Blender community is really full of criticism already, I don't think it get a pass.

 

Yeah, that's true. It just sometimes seems that some of the users just automatically deflect any criticism sometimes.

Like pointing out you can't shift-click in the outliner to multi select things being met with responses like "it doesn't have to work like other software/OS's". They recommended using the box select tool with the b key to multi select.

Or at least, that was my experience in IRL.

 

Yeah, a lot of internal user criticism is alone those line, one even made a long video with mock up to explain.

But I think the line is drawn at jumping from "it's not like other software" that is the main complain of profane user to "therefore it's utter trash". That's why it get emphasize internally but dismiss when coming from outside, in the end it's just a minor adjustment not a damning aspect.

AND since it's open source there is rogue build that are compatible with the main branch and redo the interface around specific concern, you have the best of all world!
https://www.bforartists.de
https://upbge.org
https://github.com/Microvellum/Fluid-Designer
http://www.mechanicalblender.org

 

Upbge is not progressing as much as Amory 3D, they will still remain both very little 3D engines, it will takes years to get further and have a full features suite like most popular 3D engines.
Bforartists looks cool , but nothing is sure about it to keep following Blender coming versions ?

I guess the best solution is still to get a more common interface in Blender 2.8, something officially supported and worked on instead.

 

https://code.blender.org/2018/04/tools-toolbar-and-tool-widgets/

 

One of the 2.8 dev videos nudged my memory on this..

I think my vague memories that the game engine requirements had an effect on speed came from when OpenGL viewports were introduced for Yo Frankie! It seems the most likely reason why a speed increase and the game engine were joined in my mind

 

2.8 will new icons should please most users

 

It's not the icons. It's the entire workflow. Including tabs on the top and the fact that the tools will be toggles and such.
It will be more accessible for the casual and beginner users like me (who has a hard time to learn the shortcuts).

The direction is very good in my opinion.

 

I'm very excited about the changes and upgrades coming in Blender 2.8 mainly in the UI, I'm a long time Cinema 4D user and thinking very seriously migrate to Blender, not because Cinema 4D it lacks something, all the contrary for me is the most versatile and friendly 3D package out there, I'd tried Maya, 3DS Max, Zbrush, and recently Modo but it was Cinema 4D the most enjoyable to use follow by Modo.

But my pocket is hurting me and a free Blender looks like a great option, I'm doing less video animation and concentrating mostly on creating game assets for my project so an expensive 3D software as Cinema 4D offers no advantage over Blender for modeling, texturing and animate game assets.

Yes, Blender is less intuitive to use but is free and very capable, and for that reason alone makes it a great piece of software for an independent game developer.

 

You can multiselect with shift in the outliner...

Blender is also a lot easier if you just flip the status bars to the top of the window.

As far as having to learn hotkeys, you can actually access 99% of actions from the status bar, or pressing Spacebar then searching for it.

 

You can now. A few versions ago you couldn't.

 

I am not currently using blender so cannot comment, but I did remember this thread when I saw a tweet today that Blender for Artists has gone gold.

 

For modeling only, i found Rocket3F , and i like how easy and intuitive it is once you learned it, the UI is very clear.
It's perfect for hard surface modeling until Blender 2.8 is completed.

 

Blender is only difficult if you are use to other 3d programs. I started using blender in 2000. I heard about it from a kid that gave a presentation at a business meeting that I was attending. Hey had won some type of contest with a demo/game/3D presentation that he had created with blender. I want back to my job and downloaded it. I took one look at the interface and tried somethings and shut it down. I did not even run it for another 6 months.

I searched online and found a tutorial on how to make a 3d hammer in blender. The author wrote it very well. He went step by step. I followed the tutorial and finished it and thought to myself "ok I can use this thing" and have never looked back since.

Now that was 17 years ago and Blender was the very FIRST 3D program I had every used. So now if I were to try to use some other program like 3dsMax, or Maya. I would be confused. Blender was developed as an in-house 3d development platform for a game company called NEO-GEO. I was designed to run on a SGI workstation. Which is why the keystrokes and menu choices , mouse clicks, and other ways of doing things were so alien to this windows only user.

But once I got use to it I developed muscle memory for blender only. Now this operations are second nature to me when I use blender and I go back to the regular windows ways of doing things whenever I am doing something else on my computer.

 

lmao for a first comment... this is hands down the best.

 

i bought a lowpoly single material fbx. imported it. exported it. the normal is screwed in Unity. stuck for days i feel pain that i haven't experience when i tried 3d max and Maya.

 

Select the model, press tab, press shift+N, press tab again, export.

 

Is Blender intentionally designed to be difficult to interact with at first?

well.. yes?

it's a professional tool lol

 

It's important to note that Blender's user interface has been completely redesigned since any meaningful post was made on this thread. This whole conversation is obsolete now.

 

Back on Topic. Blender today, 29th Of November 2022 is a very different beast to use. The new UI has basically allowed me to have blender as my number one 3d choice for everything I do.

I remember how it use to be usability wise because of its UI and yes it did turn me off from using it. Back then I would use Hexagon (a brilliant modeler from Daz3D) but now it's all Blender for me.

 

Yup. Back then Blender was basically the vim of 3D modelers. Since then the UI/UX improved drastically and you no longer need to read through several pages of documentation to learn how to move the camera around or select things.

 

yeah my previous opinions of it in this thread of changed since, but also has my hate of autodesk which is the main driving factor for me to use blender these days. Blender is much more mature and easy to use now, really the last few annoyances are due to its license like its rubbish fbx support since it can not use the officials fbx sdk. Though i hope this problem later gets solved by more people adopting USD.

though would love a better scripting interface, and a native plugin api

 

It was hardly a complete redesign. Really the only thing that got any major redesign between 2018 and now was the tools shelf. Aside from that it was mostly minor tweaks, with the interface is largely the same as the 2.57 version from 2011.

 

Ironically a lot of truth is in that. Although it SHOULD be the exact opposite: Professionals use a tool to reach a goal as fast as possible because then they get money. So their time is more valuable than the hobbyists who just enjoys the journey and not only the goal.

In the past, tools were sometimes seemingly designed in rough ways so the companies could also sell trainings and certificates. SAP is an example for that. Not sure that flies nowadays, let alone Blender though.

 

Sometimes the devil is in the details, as the saying goes. They did start focusing more in making the UX more approachable circa 2.8 and it shows.

Every program has its unique quirks, but Blender felt like a piece of software designed in a vacuum due to how often it subverted established software UX conventions. A person would boot it up for the first time, try to select the cube in the sample scene and immediately get confused as left clicking would place the anchor instead of selecting things, for example.

 

Agreed. It's weird when people act like it's completely different. It's some kind of meme. The only major change is left/right click have switched, and the left sidebar is more confusing because it's just icons.

 

Fun fact: you can drag the edge to reveal the text!

This is a complete misrepresentation and misunderstanding of things.

Professionals use a tool to reach a goal as fast as possible and tools are designed around this because otherwise they can't be effective tools in a professional space. Blender is not intentionally designed to be more difficult, nor were past tools designed roughly to sell training. Instead, they are designed to best facilitate high speed, high efficacy workflows.

 

Yeah, it's crazy that people are complaining that everything is a shortcut lol

I don't ever use buttons when I have shortcuts on blender, when I want to rotate something on Y axis by 270 degree I can just type R Y -90

Blender has a lot simplified but it aims at pro level, pros avoid buttons

 

If you find it hard to learn the shortcuts in blender you probably just need to spend more time using them. It's not magic. It's just like learning anything else.

 

I sprained my finger typing this:


So I guess we might say that it is hard.

 

I still see people talking about having to learn all of the esoteric short-cut keys in Blender sometimes. With the current Blender, though, there are very few key mappings that you actually need to know anymore, possibly zero. Every feature is accessible with a button bar or menu option. Keys are only for convenience and I've only memorized the shortcuts that I use most often. As far as short-cut keys, it's really no different than any other software that I use, except maybe that it has a larger number of tools that take time to learn.

 

Blender is not a fast tool compared to Maya (and probably 3dsmax). Partly because it lacks more fancy tools that let you work faster, partly because a lot of functionality is hidden in such an illogical way that you can't figure it out yourself.

There are also performance problems related to working with high poly meshes. Sometimes you might run out of memory, another time, you are stuck with a long loading time.

It's nice to have a lot of shortcuts for everything.

But the real problems are:
- Often these shortcuts don't make any sense.
- At the same time, the blender lacks workflows that exist in every other program.
- There is no way to learn most of these shortcuts without googling.

There are many reasons why people in professional studios still prefer spending a lot of money on professional tools.

 

Not being as fast does not mean it isn't fast. Explore the polymodelling ecosystem outside Maya/Max/Blender and you'll immediately see what I mean.

 

For me Blender has the easiest workflow compared to 3dsmax, Blender is still in development.

Many companies are switching to Blender and abandoning the professional (paid) options and donating part of that money to Blender. Many companies saw that their money is best invested on making Blender better instead of paying for a pro tool like that

I would never choose 3dsmax over Blender, Blender will basically kill it in a few years