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Is Blender intentionally designed to be difficult to interact with at first?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by REDACT3D, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. burntbyhellfire

    burntbyhellfire

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    ^ i did the same thing so that the left/right/middle mouse buttons needed to move and pan the camera are the same as maya which are the same as the other autodesk software im used to using.. it works quite well for me
     
  2. SnowInChina

    SnowInChina

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    only thing about blender i could never understand is the rmb to select, lmb to place cursor
    who does this kind of heresy
    luckily its only one click to set this right.
     
  3. MD_Reptile

    MD_Reptile

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    Yeah that is usually the first setting I change, or my brain is stuck in unity left click mode, and its hard to turn that off :D
     
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  4. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    It gets me switching between blender and zbrush too... the 3D navigation controls context switch hurts by brain.
     
  5. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    This is a surefire way to leave me tired and cranky after a long day of modeling. Moving between maya to zbrush to a game engine and maybe even photoshop, sometimes with a mouse and sometimes with a tablet. For the most part its second nature by now, but if you stop and think about what you are doing to move around, your head will start spinning. Kind of like when you get used to typing in a password. If you try to actually remember what the password is, you can't remember and all of a sudden you can't type it anymore.
     
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  6. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    I have Blender's hotkeys so deeply ingrained in my habbits that I've tried to press "x" to delete something in various other programs... In "Reaper" it happened so often that I just set "x" to be the new delete key, because the UI of that tool reminded me enough of Blender that I kept pressing that key.
     
  7. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    i only use zbrush with my intuos, so i find i never have that problem with zbrush since the input method i use for it differs so much from any other 3d program i use.
     
  8. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    I mostly use my Intuos as well, but sometimes I'm just roughing out an avatar with zspheres and I find that easier to control with the mouse.
     
  9. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    I do that too... it's frustrating when I catch myself trying to "pan" in non 3d applications that just need the scroll wheel. :) That being said, I start to get used to it. I use a tremendous number of hot keys in Visual Studio. It's become second nature. If you asked me what some hot keys are On couldn't even tell you, but when developing I jjust hit them by habit. Then I similarly catch myself trying to use vs hotkeys in other apps like Notepad++ or similar.
     
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  10. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    i have always used VS or a jetbrains ide with the vim plugin and use macVim as my main basic editor, and me trying to to type code on someone else computer is a disaster and it takes a lot of fight that muscle memory.
     
  11. bobisgod234

    bobisgod234

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    I hate the fact that "save image" and "reload image" are right next to each other, and undoing "reload image" doesn't seem to work properly (only undoing a portion of the image). I have lost significant work to this before. That and the fact images don't save when you save your blend file, and blender doesn't warn you when you try closing it with modifications made to images (unlike meshes).

    Authoring PBR materials also seems like guesswork. I found a nice Cycles node that closely matches Unity's Standard Shader, but its still clunky switching in and out of Cycles to preview the material. Looks like Eevee should solve that problem though, cant wait for 2.8!
     
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  12. Fab4

    Fab4

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    It feels weird at first but for wight paint etc you can understand the purpose. Selection stays the same and you can paint with lmb
     
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  13. burntbyhellfire

    burntbyhellfire

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    seems most people, even long time blender users agree that a lot of the hot keys and controls arent very intuitive.. i think X to delete is one of those.. i mean, we actually have a key on our keyboards that says "delete"
     
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  14. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Now that you mention it I don't actually know what the "delete" key does in blender. Let me check...
    It's the same as "x", huh... don't know what I expected x].
     
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  15. burntbyhellfire

    burntbyhellfire

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    really? you can use delete or X and it does the same thing? seems wasteful to have two bindings.. some of their bindings dont make sense.. some of them make perfect sense (like R to rotate then X, Y, or Z to lock rotation to a particular axis is fantastic and easy to remember).. but they can certainly use some better organizing and optimization of the UI

    thing is though, most of what people dont like about it is changeable, so you dont really 'need' blender to do anything
     
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  16. DominoM

    DominoM

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    When you look at the keyboard shortcuts and where the most used ones fall (mostly on left hand side of keyboard), it makes a lot of sense to have x as delete so it's in reach of the other keys. Grab Rotate Scale Duplicate Extrude Fill All Box X Y Z ctrl alt shift, you can do a whole lot with basically touch typing on left hand and mouse/numeric keypad with right.
     
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  17. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Like most software, try it then learn it or leave it.
     
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  18. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Exactly. From a blender veteran's perspective "delete" is the redundant key that could theoretically be used for something else, not "x" (I know how crazy that must sound). Also users always freak out when you change something they've used for many years. That's how blender's key layout "grew" over time. When the first keys were chose most of the functionality we have today didn't even exist in the tool yet. I've used blender when it still was missing a propper "undo" function... That's also probably the reason why it still has a hotkey to increment a filename in the save dialog. You just saved 100 versions of your file instead of using undo. I still save that way out of habbit.

    Once they offer alternative key layouts that match more common 3D applications I'm not sure if it would be worth it for me to try and relearn the layout. I too rarely use other 3D tools for that to make much sense. But I totally think it should be an option for those who want it, because the legacy layout of shortcuts makes no sense to people coming from most other tools and I do think there could be an objectively better layout if it was redesigned from ground up now. Whether that could beat a user-customized layout that is tailored to their specific usecase is another question...

    p.s.: I think it would be great if blender supported midi input out of the box for key binding. Regular keyboards really don't have enough keys on them for some applications. If I had a thing with midi buttons that I could map custom scripts or functions to, that would be cool.
     
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  19. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Haven't watched this yet but it could be interesting for people in this thread:

     
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  20. FirstAndTen

    FirstAndTen

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    I recall reading that Blender was designed with a mindset that "professionals" use hotkeys and the UI came 2nd because the original designers assumed users would just use hotkeys, like experts in Photoshop do. It was short sighted for sure. That obtuse interaction standard is why I moved to Maya 5 years ago.

    Unfortunately for me over the years my artistic taste has moved towards the low-poly arena and Blender is far better and has far more community and tutorials around it than Maya does in that area. C4D is also great at low-poly work but it's ridiculously expensive. I've started messing around with Blender recently but damn is it frustrating. My main issues with Blender so far are:

    1. The right vs left mouse button being completely backward to how other 3D software works, or any software for that matter. Nobody uses the right mouse button to interact with objects. Whoever made this decision should be analyzed by a psychiatrist.
    2. Requiring a number pad. Yes I know you can change it but if there's one thing I've learned with Blender it's that if you change anything to not be the base way it's meant to work it ends up being half baked. Something isn't going to work right, something isn't going to have a key now mapped to it, etc.
    3. Blender has presets for "Maya" and you can turn off the numpad support but I'd recommend you don't. You'll run into something else then that doesn't work and any tutorial you find will not be accurate and you'll have to map things yourself in order to follow along with it.
    4. Blender handles the Y & Z axis different than Maya so when you import into Unity you have to approach it differently. Not a huge deal, but still something I have to remember when using Blender.

    I'm going to force myself to learn it because it is a valuable tool in your toolbox. For instance I use it to bake AO onto all of my UV maps, Maya does not have that capability (that I know of and I'm far from an expert). I've been using Blender for that for awhile now and it hasn't forced me to really have to butt heads with Blenders weird interaction model. Blender has a HUGE community on Youtube that routinely does tutorials for cool stuff, especially in the low poly arena, and also from what I've watched it seems rigging and animating are easier in Blender. Jury is out if they are as powerful but for indie game development it should be more than sufficient.
     
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  21. Fab4

    Fab4

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    I created a pie chart that helps you to control the camera like you do with the numpad. I needed it when my new laptop had none. If you are interested write me an pm
     
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  22. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Blender has been designed for maximum inefficiency, without thinking about learning curve. It is lightning fast when you get used to it.

    It is kinda like VIM, somewhat.
     
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  23. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    No arguments there.:D

    When people talk about blender being fast, the question I have to ask is if they only use it to box model or animate. With those two use cases, I can see some intent to make a workflow specially for those processes. The rest of the time, however, the workflows that get used are scrounged from whatever tools were cool enough to make it into blender. Sculpting tools barely extends functionality beyond painting on the model, retopo inevitably boils down to hand placing every vertex, and I'll be damned if anyone has ever rigged a model without changing modes a hundred times.
     
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  24. ChazBass

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    While this is true, it does not excuse the usability nightmare that is the UI. The UI is the way it is because, unlike with commercial software, there isn't/wasn't much attention paid to usability as it was bolted together over the years in Frankenstein fashion. The development community that built it didn't feel it was an important concern, and most of the power user community felt any focus on the UI was heretical. In some ways, I wonder if the UI is not a middle finger to the commercial software industry in general...and Autodesk in particular.

    Of course, you can't beat the price. I started with it and stayed for a few years, then went to Maya and finally Max. Still have my 3-button track ball mouse in the drawer :)
     
  25. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    The part where he explains how he came up with that UI... wew
     
  26. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    ?.png
     
  27. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    It's lightning fast as VIM when modeling without mouse.

    The X key for delete is good for touch typist on their left hand.
     
  28. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    I have use many software before blender, and only blender clicked for me, I mean I had only one tutorial dedicated to character modelling and I figure out all the other things because the UI is so damn consistent. I have been using using it since 2.49, I cry everytime I try to use another software back. I mean blender has mode shift which allow to reuse the same shortcut key binding, which minimize pain and allow to capitalize on knowledge by generalizing them, it also allow the information to not be overloaded by simply showing only what's relevant to the task. I remember using 3ds max and you have to freeze the modeling 100% before skinning or cry, in belnder I could go back and forth because the data of one don't mess with the other, which also allow fort faster "debugging" of error. The first thing to learn really is the hierarchy of the UI, once you get it, everything falls into place and are literally self explain, hierarchy of data is what other soft F***ed up by having non sensical grouping of stuff base on unquestion convention that put thing that are different together, which mean I have to look at everything one by one, while in blender, if I have never used a functionnality, even if I don't know if blender has it, I would know instantly where it would be place, and generally it is right there, which how I learn blender. In fact I don't even seek out blender tutorial anymore, I just look at 3d modeling tutorial and guess how to do it in blender, in fact even paid tut have a free intro that generally give me everything I need to understand without looking further, because the details of the task of the software is self evident to me, I just need the overall direction and principle.

    BUt at the same time I was exposed to 3d when I didn't have a computer, as a kid, for a long time, I was familiarize through sheer interest to all the basic of modeling before even touching a computer, and did some model on graph paper as anticipation. IMHO, blender map better such knowledge, ie breaking it in an analytical fashion, you have to understand the matter and how everything relate to each other in a technical way.

    MY guess is that most people come from a more hands on approach of modeling through practice of art, ie more "painterly", therefore a "canvas" like interface make more sense, vertices, edge and polygon aren't the material you are working with, they are really just the tools to achieve the forms and shapes, which is the true matter you are trying to dealing with. If you have an analytical view of forms and shape AS elements of vertex, edge and polygon, I think blender make more sense.
     
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  29. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    The problem with Blender's interface is simply that it is designed in such a way that everything requires memorization. It works fine if you use it frequently, but you'll need to constantly look up how to do things if you only occasionally use it, as you'll forget hotkeys or the unintuitive way something is done.

    It reminds me of computer games from the early 80's where you'd need to print out a page with the controls to keep next to the computer. Or using the vim text editor. Very powerful, and not difficult to use once you have everything you need memorized.

    Blender is really a failure of modern software design, in that you need to waste a good amount of effort learning the software rather than just creating with it.
     
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  30. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    You don't need to remember a thing in blender. I just hit space and type the first few letters of what I want to do and click. If anything, it's easier to find specific tools in blender than it is in 3DS Max or Maya.
     
  31. MD_Reptile

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    ^ that does usually work, unless the jargon is different than what I think its called... can't come up with an example off the top of my head, but sometimes I end up having to google "how to do thing I always do in X program, while in blender" or something like that, then search for what I actually want to do :p
     
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  32. Deleted User

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    The think I detest about blender is the fact that imported models come in at a near -90 degree angle on the X. It is so annoying that Blender and Unity software cannot seem work together properly.

    I don't know how other 3D modelling software fairs up with Unity.
     
  33. DominoM

    DominoM

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    I do wonder how much of this thread will be moot when Blender 2.8 is finished. It's a project that they have been working on for ~2 years to provide a better workflow foundation. There's hints of things to come in the new grease pencil demo (there's workflow shots in the credits from 2.33).
     
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  34. DominoM

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    Blender's FBX exporter has options to change the rotation to match Unity. Alternatively there's a Unity script to do it automatically.
     
  35. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Honestly it sounds like you guys want too much.

    Sculpting: Dyntopo. Haven't used zbrush, but all blender sculpting tools are accessible via hotkeys, So you can switch them rapidly.
    Switching modes requires one keypress. I'm not sure why this is a problem.
    Speaking of memorization, you aren't learning kanji here, number of shortcuts is fairly small.

    If you want something else, there are commercial packages available, and you're free to switch to them. For a price, that is :D
     
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  36. RockoDyne

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    You mean have some thought put into how it's used and not be a kludge of features? Is it really too much to ask for the Krita of 3D and not the GIMP? At least GIMP devs never thought a game engine was worth bundling into the core program.

    And dyntopo is pretty much the only feature they added specifically for sculpting. As far as I am aware, that was it. That was the entire extent of their foray into sculpting.
    Thank God, since you will be pressing that key a thousand times, never mind having to change the base object that's selected about half as often.
     
  37. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    YOu only say that because the thought put into it don't match the thought you would put into that ;)
    I mean FOR ME, it's as been the most intuitive package, and it's free, christmas everyday! And the more I use it and discover feature organically, the more I ask myself why do I keep using those auxiliary program ...

    The only problem I tend to have is something no other package offer generally.
     
  38. SnowInChina

    SnowInChina

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    yeah yeah, overly dramatic....
    it seriously depends on what you startet with.
    if you learned max first, your muscle memory will remember all the clicks and steps, and everything that does not work exactly like max, will seem bad
    same for me with maya, everytime i open it up i am looking at this ui cluster***** abomination
    every tool i use doesn't feel as good as in blender
    and about the sculpting tool. it's not nearly as powerful or good as zbrush
    but having the option to sculpt on your mesh without losing modifiers and then going back to modeling is a huge bonus
    i am not saying that blender is the best tool out there, but if you seriously invest some time and try to learn the shortcuts, it feels super easy and fast and it's about as powerful as any other modeling application
    and as always, use whatever you want, no one cares
     
  39. DominoM

    DominoM

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    And now Unity are introducing modelling features into their game engine. They must be as crazy as the Blender devs..

    The game engine in Blender was (as it's now been removed from 2.8) useful, but it was hindered by the GPL license which limited it to open source games. Artists found other ways to use it though, eg using the game engine logic bricks for procedural animation.

    I don't know how much of BGE will come back into 2.8 as there are now open source options such as Godot and Armory with good Blender support, I'll be watching with interest as the development progresses. If nothing else, having a game engine in there does help make sure the core data handling is fast.
     
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  40. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    From the interview that I linked it sounded like the lead dev cares a lot about these things, like how long it takes to load a project or start the tool. Doesn't seem like they need a game engine incentive for that. Faster viewport performance for highpoly meshes would be needed for my usecases, but I think/hope that's gonna come with 2.8.
     
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  41. DominoM

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    I ignored the fact you reposted Ton's interview after liking my post in this thread where I first mentioned it, but referring me back to it is a step too far. Glad to hear you got around to watching it :)

    There are early 2.8 builds available if you want to test the new viewport.
     
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  42. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    I learned Blender first, and for the most part exclusively. Maybe I'm crazy, but learning some hotkeys didn't trigger the Stockholm syndrome that most people seem to catch. Is Blender just Dark Souls?

    I have heard on multiple occasions that Blender is, or at least has been, one of the best FLOSS video editors. Let that sink in. Open source video editing tools have been notoriously terrible, and yet here is Blender being quite competent at something that is only tangentially related to what a fraction of it's user base even uses it for. So what is Blender?

    Seriously, what is it? What is the vision for what Blender is and what it will become? What ideas constitute what should or should not be in Blender? I doubt its developers have a clue what it's supposed to be.
     
  43. RockoDyne

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    What do you think the odds are that everyone in this thread has made (or at least worked with) level generating tools in Unity?
     
  44. DominoM

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    Sounds like a clue to me. Blender is getting increasingly well positioned to be the core of custom pipelines. The application templates system for 2.8 is another step towards it.

    I'm not sure what you intend to prove with the comment about level generating tools, sure I've used them and that's why I'm considering writing import export routines for Unity terrains into Blender - I think that would be a better pipeline for me.

    E-Interiores are one company that uses Blender in a pipeline role. Like the majority of Blender users they aren't in the game business, but that room editor would be useful in level design. It's that sort of task specific workflows that 2.8 is designed to make easier to create.
     
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  45. Martin_H

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    No time to play around, I'll wait till it's production-ready. I'll do a lot of Blender work soon, but 2.8 is just a little too late for me. I'll stick to 2.79b for this project.
    My apologies, I did not even notice the links because of the way you integrated them into your text. I liked your post for this sentence: "The plan for 2.80 is that the UI is fully configurable from application templates, which can be task specific ones or mimic other applications etc."
    I've found the interview on the youtube frontpage or sidebar I think. I wouldn't have linked it here if I had noticed it has already been linked. Sorry.

    But now that I know you've watched it I understand your sentence about fast data handling even less. Didn't he say that one of the main issues with BGE was that they don't actually share a codebase? Apologies if I misunderstood you.


    "The Dark Souls of 3D content creation" ... maybe that's how we should pitch it? Good idea!
     
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  46. DominoM

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    I wouldn't worry about it. It was more my imagination than anything definite, I just have a feeling (suppressed knowledge?) that some of the planned changes came about from weaknesses the BGE helped highlight (maybe it was why it was so separated?).
     
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  47. RockoDyne

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    So why is it also a video editor and a game engine? If the point was to be a "free and open source 3D creation suite," a developer that cared wouldn't have worked on those things, much less without forking it. Blender is not a well designed app carefully built to solve problems, instead it's a clusterfuck of features that mostly orbit 3D.

    With probuilder, even if you don't find yourself using it all the time, more than likely everyone doing 3D will find if useful. There are clear problems it solves. On the other hand, how many people have been in the middle of modeling and really needed a game engine? Are you not seeing how one of these was trying to solve a problem, while the other was bolted on for S***s and giggles when it should have been a fork?



    Just as fond of shortcuts and the UI is the graveyard. Why does it fit so well?
     
  48. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    me?
    Also any low poley and game modeleur, that's why we switch from cycle to game engine rendering :rolleyes:
     
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  49. RockoDyne

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    You also need to see it in your game engine if you want to see it properly though.
     
  50. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Krita is poorly done. Quality of blender is above both Krita and Gimp. And yes, some thought was put into it, that's why it is efficient. Quality wise blender is roughly comparable to clip-studio. Both packages feel very similar to each other.

    You need to familiarize yourself with sculpt mode brushes and check multires sculpting as well.

    My typing speed is almost 500 characers per minute. Full modeling process takes at LEAST several hours no matter what. At this speed and at this time frame, a "tab" keypress is essentually free, because I always have a hand on keyboard. So this "problem" is a non-factor. You also do not change base object often, it is an extremely infrequent process.

    Now, if someone required me to drag out panels and click buttons with mouse for this operation, that would've been a heresy/lunacy. However, blender does not require that. The mode switching and objects selection is something you do not think about and something that does not not slow down you. It is like breathing.

    Blender does have some very awkward things in it, but honestly you picked the worst possible example, that happens to work well.
    --------
    Well, I wrote one.

    Dark souls is a medium-difficult game that simply does not hold your hand much. At least Dark souls 1 and darksousl 3 is.

    In all honesty, if somebody started saying that "hotkeys are hard!", i'd assume that they're lacking motivation to learn to model. It is like going to art class and saying "pencils are heavy". No offense.

    In my experience, after blender manipulation most other tools feel inferior and clumsy.
    --------
    You missed the point where it is also capable of making 2d animation now.



    Honestly... why not? Blender aims to be a swiss army knife. It works well enough for this purpose.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018