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Is Blender intentionally designed to be difficult to interact with at first?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by REDACT3D, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    Just have to vent for a moment here,

    I've never had any issues learning a new program or workflow method but DAM. Everything seems counter intuitive and NOT "discoverable"! Do they want to get you addicted to interacting with it- like an instrument? Maybe... it's supposed to be a challenge to use, so that you feel more accomplished? Perhaps it's trying to be unique?

    I understand that it could be "faster" to use the hotkeys... Like playing a synthesizer once you learn all the knobs...but Blender is like a synthesizer- If all the knobs and buttons where labeled "Not what you think"

    Wellp- this is eating into my youtube learning time guys! back to it!


    Currently Viewing: ADVANCED BLENDER TECHNIQUES (BASIC NAVIGATION & SELECTION)

    #endregion
     
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  2. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Blender is about as hard to learn as any other high-level 3D modelling software. I've used Blender, Maya, 3DSMax, and a handful of others and they're ALL difficult to pick up.
     
  3. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    Its probably the first time I hear blender as an instrument, interesting metaphor:D
    Tell me what you want to make with blender? Its basically vertex, edge and face, you can create many things by just extrude them.
    By the way, synthesizer could be harder, because of harmony.
     
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  4. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    I don't think 'hotkeys' is the right term since there's really no other reasonable way to interface with a 3D modelling software, unless you want to be scanning the screen for tiny buttons and trying to find your way through hierarchies of menus just to do something simple.
     
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  5. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    going from c4d -> blender is my issue :)
     
  6. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    The key is to have an icon AND a use key ^.^
     
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  7. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    I <3 synthesizers!
     
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  8. LaneFox

    LaneFox

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    Blender was designed as an internal tool for a company, then later made open source. It is notoriously nonstandard and unintuitive.
     
  9. Blender is the GIMP of the 3D modellers.
     
  10. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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  11. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    I haven't learned anything other than those two in their respective categories, and never had too much of a problem with making game stuff.

    Blender has serious annoying stuff with animation, as well as a lot of things to do with creating materials and rendering in the software itself. But for good old 3D modelling, apart from the hotkeys not being obvious as @REDACT3D said, I can hardly think of anything better. And I like the way you can create whatever you like in it (such as procedural modelling stuff). In fact, I must admit there's probably more comprehensive documentation on all the methods/variables you need to code new stuff in it than on how to just start pushing verts around in the 3D view.
     
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  12. I would lie if I were telling you that I'm an expert, because I'm an artistic anti-talent. But I learned Paint Shop Pro, Photoshop, 3D Studio (then the early Max), so I have some basic understanding when it comes the technically 'how'.
    Also I had to pick up some Blender and GIMP. Well, these two are the same abomination when it comes to written and non-written industry standards from a UI and UX and basic usability point of view.

    They are great tools, technically, you "just" have to learn them, because they are different from everything else on the market. (As I understand, this is changing, slowly but steadily).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2018
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  13. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    What I would give for the Krita of 3D modelers.
     
  14. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    Is that really so bad?
    You may search some old tutorials from 2.6 about bpy, I guess there is not much difference from the recently release.

    the absence of alpha in vertex color is somehow annoying, although that could be done through bpy, still pain in the a**.
     
  15. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    Not sure why, I never saw them as an abomination. Now I don't even think about what I'm doing.

    Must admit I dislike in gimp having 20 windows floating around like it's nobody's business, but other than that I find it easier to get stuff done than photoshop.
     
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  16. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    What I meant is, there's more docs on programming stuff than on using the basic interface. Yes I've had a lot of fun with python and blender, although once I realized I could do it all in Unity, I don't really bother anymore.
     
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  17. HiddenMonk

    HiddenMonk

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    I started with Maya and Photoshop and then moved to Blender and Gimp since they are free, and from what I remember, blender and gimp were more difficult to get into for me (still is but I am not using them a lot yet). Maybe it has to do with switching from one workflow to another, but there are just things that annoy me, like how gimp doesnt seem to have a simple way of moving multiple layers at once (you need to click the chains in the layer icon and what not?) and in blender I dont think I am able to select multiple objects and apply something to all of them. Basically it seems blender and gimp lack basic functionality or hide it away in some unintuitive way. However, I guess thats all probably just opinion based.
     
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  18. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    very similar to Unity, depends on add-on assets:)
     
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  19. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    I've done plenty of animation stuff (once made a bunch of realistic insects for someone with anims, that was a lot of fun). The basic animation stuff is not too bad, but the interfaces are a bit wonky. Remember the mystical bone weight paint selection where you have to transition through several specific views in the right order or stuff just doesn't work?
     
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  20. There's no accounting for taste, of course, and everyone probably prefer what (s)he was learning first or the most. For me, as a guy with broad interests it's probably more painful, because there is very little in common with the others.

    For example if you get 3D Studio Max and you get Maya, the basic UI are the same. They have a lot in common. Blender is different. Or you get Paint Shop Pro, Photoshop or Krita, they're basically the same, with subtle differences and varying feature set, but Gimp is different.
    But if you start with these and don't care that you have to learn all the stuff at once and your knowledge isn't reusable basically, no problem with them. This is what I mean UX/UI abomination.

    It's important: I do not think that they are bad software. They just have very bad UI.
     
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  21. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    I think it comes down to the fact that once you learn all the basic the key combinations (which you'll need to do anyway to have a decent workflow, since you'll be hitting them every 5-10 seconds) there's nothing wrong with it at all. So I guess it's a bit intimidating at first, but certainly not restrictive, even in terms of UI, once you get going.
     
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  22. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    Seems I evaded that bug, I didn't use the weight painting, usually have vertex group weight instead.
    Keeping a correct bone roll is annoying indeed.
     
  23. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    Honestly, because I'm new to unity and most of the tutorials involve blender. But might stick with it on my laptop for the less system recourses (all those missing features) haha!
     
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  24. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    Didn't know I was getting involved in such a polarizing development tool. But you know what - I feel slightly better knowing that I'm not alone!

    haha
     
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  25. REDACT3D

    REDACT3D

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    Googled: "Is this node edit window really how you make shaders in blender?"

    ** Still can't locate the principled BSDF shader option ** Facepalm
    (running newest test version 2.79 (MacOS) )
     
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  26. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    yup, it is really light weight, which I like it too.
    I don't have the latest version, however I may guess the problem.
    Just confirmed it works in the latest 2.79b.;)
    Have you switched to cycle render mode yet(instead of default blender renderer)?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  27. burntbyhellfire

    burntbyhellfire

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    as far as actually doing something in blender, like modeling for example, i dont have a hard time figuring out and remembering the hot keys.. but the fact theres so many windows and its so easy to create a new one, cover another one up, and a PITA to figure out how to switch a window to being something useful.. thats where it gets aggrivating.. like if i set my main window to start doing some modeling.. why would i want a second screen that by default has controls for something entirely different?
     
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  28. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    hotkeys save you lot of time, really worth to remember them:)
     
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  29. Raestream_G

    Raestream_G

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    C4D is - in my experience, at least - amazingly straightforward and intuitive to use, especially for animation. So going over to Blender, which has a reputation for being...tricky, must be a lot like...well -

    *Insert GIF of Morgan Freeman saying 'Good Luck' here*
     
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  30. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

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    Or even right click contextual radial menu. Seems kinda just right coming from Maya, Max. :p:cool:
     
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  31. Ony

    Ony

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    I was literally just the other day comparing my Synthstrom Deluge with Blender. They keep releasing new updates for Deluge that require memorizing a bunch of different hot keys, and I can hardly keep up.

    As for Blender itself, my wife/dev partner hated 3DSMax, but when she switched to Blender last year, damn it was exactly what she was looking for. She flies around in it and absolutely loves it.
     
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  32. ArachnidAnimal

    ArachnidAnimal

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    You are not alone. I have used Blender for a couple of years and I STILL get frustrated with interface. The main issue is the interface is deviated from how most other interfaces work. It took me an hour to figure out how to close a "window" in Blender. They even have a tutorial on how to do that.
    Blender is hot-key oriented so you have to remember all of these key strokes, so you better have a good memory. (ALT+CTR+SHIFT+C+DEL)

    This. The elitists don't like people critiquing Blender. That's a no-no.

    But, it's free so I'm not complaining.
     
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  33. MD_Reptile

    MD_Reptile

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    Haha yes, how very true. I keep a notepad around, and its like my blender hotkey cheat sheet, with the most critical and commonly used stuff written down.

    I have to say, blender is definitely not as user friendly as 3DS Max, Maya, and even some 3D CAD software I've used in the past. It certainly works for making stuff, and once your familiar with its little differences, it can be quite powerful - but it certainly is not "as hard to learn as other 3D model software" - it is harder. Of course some people who learned blender first, then moved on to 3DS Max or Maya might think the opposite... and those people would be wrong :D (EDIT: just in case it is hard to detect - this is sarcasm)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  34. DominoM

    DominoM

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    For a long time I avoided Blender due to it's notorious steep learning curve, I'd used 3D Studio Max 2.0, a few generations of Cinema 4D, Hexagon and Daz Studio before I eventually decided that as the Blender interface wasn't being 'improved' there must be a reason for it. I decided to give Blender a fair go by using it long enough to get familiar with it's interface. I've never felt the need to switch away from Blender since then (around 2.30 I think). I occasionally watch speed modelling videos and it always strikes me how much more time is spent looking at UI in other applications compared to the Blender experience. Blender suits me just fine, I tend to like the different choices that were made in its design and the 2.80 rewrite may finally be doing something about the steepness of that curve for new users.
     
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  35. burntbyhellfire

    burntbyhellfire

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    its also not very hard to keep open a list of the keys and what they do while working towards memorizing them
     
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  36. ArachnidAnimal

    ArachnidAnimal

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    In fairness, once you learn the keys you can do stuff in Blender very quickly. Maybe that is the advantage of being key-oriented. I watched tutorials of experts using Blender and it is ridiculous how quickly they can model and animate things. I have to play the videos at 25% speed just to follow along.

    Exactly. This is my main issue with Blender. It doesn't support mass-editing of objects.

    You have to go into pose mode, select the bone, then go into weight paint mode. You cannot select the bones while in weight paint mode. That also had confused me a while ago.
    But, if you're lucky you won't ever have to worry about this due to the great automatic weights calculation that Blender can do. That is one of the greatest things about Blender.
     
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  37. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Serious question : Why do people use blender?

    All of the major 3d apps can be used for free or cheap. So why do people voluntarily use blender? Major studios don't use blender. Near as I can tell, it's usually just noobs who think blender is the only free solution that use blender. But OP says they've gone from C4d to blender. Why?


    ** nevermind, i see answer above.

    My advice: just use a professional app like max or maya, or stick with c4d.
     
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  38. Ony

    Ony

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    My dev partner uses Blender, switched over from 3DS Max. She's been doing 3D professionally for about 18 years. Open source and the ideas behind it are important to her, plus she just really enjoys using Blender.

    I've tried it and kind of don't blame her. I've used pretty much every 3D program in existence on a bunch of different computer systems (Amiga, PC, Mac, SGI) at one time or another over the past 25+ years, and I'm thinking of switching to Blender myself. It just has a certain something about it that feels really smooth and different. It feels more, uhm, creative, I guess. Not really sure, but I like it so far. Just not positive that I can remember all the shortcuts, but I'm giving it a try.
     
  39. SnowInChina

    SnowInChina

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    its harder to switch to blender than other modeling programs imho
    thats because blender is centered around hotkeys
    no, major 3d programms cannot be used for free or cheap
    if you are a student, okay, but otherwise it costs as far as i know

    and major studios don't advertise blender, because their pipeline revolves around maya or max, but the artists there still use it. not all, and i wouldn't say the majority, but it gets used

    and yes, it has its problems, like every package out there and it has a big learning curve, but working in blender just feels really fluent when you know the hotkeys
    it feels like i need to press 1-2 buttons less per action as in maya
    a big plus is also beeing able to jump into sculpt mode, sculpt, and back into modeling mode without destroying my modifiers
    but, as i already stated in a similar thread, today, all big 3d modeling packages do more or less the same, so for the most part its just your personal preference
    and i actually enjoy the way blender does things more than maya or max, although i have to use maya at work to a certain degree
     
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  40. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    And even if you are a student, most of the educational versions come with non-commercial requirements.
     
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  41. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Sounds like it's just a matter of user familiarity. I only know Maya, but I am usually working with the maximized viewport mode and 90% from hotkeys and the rest from the pop-up context menus, so I can't really get any faster than that. Maya is like the first serious computer program I ever learned how to use, but I don't recall it being so hard to understand.

    People who work the same way in Blender may have taken a little longer or maybe less time to get to the same speed. Given the controversy, that probably means it really all just boils down to where you started first and how much time you've had to get to know other programs. So, to OP, just stick with it and you'll be cruising in no time.

    And, if possible, save your serious groans for Zbrush. That's a pain in the dick to learn after you've gotten comfortable with the "normal" 3d programs.
     
  42. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Well said.

    I think as a first step it is more important to remember how the functions are called than what their hotkey is. The way I use blender I access most things by pressing space and typing the name of the function I wanna use in. That also displays the hotkey, so obviously for all that I use regularly I learn those, and if it's something that I use rarely but when I need it, I need it a few times in a row, then its just pressing space and then enter, since this menu remembers the last selection. I have enter on a mouse button, so that's a super fast combo to click for me.

    Blender isn't perfect but since I've now used it for ~15 years I've given up on learning any of "the big ones" and I'm hoping Blender will see more widespread adoption in the industry in the future. I know of several people wo are longterm and experienced 3DS Max users who are thinking about switching from Max to Blender for various reasons. Some who use 3D less frequently already have switched.
    I think the industry needs some kind of cataclysmic event where Autodesk does something especially egregious, and enough studios snap and switch to Blender and start putting the money they used to pay to Autodesk into custom tooldev for Blender for a while to make it catch up sooner in the gamedev-relevant fields like pipeline integratability, handling custom normals, etc.. I fully believe that the money would be better spent that way because a bigger percentage of it goes to actually making the tools better for everyone instead of feeding a bloated corporate structure. I think Blender is one of the best examples for open source done right.
     
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  43. burntbyhellfire

    burntbyhellfire

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    i like blender though.. i mean, i prefer the UI of maya, which a lot of it like rotating camera, panning, etc is the same as what im used to in autodesk inventory.. but blender can do 3D modeling, rigging, and animations seemingly as well as maya and 3DS and does so completely free and open source without a ton of bloat or gigabytes of installed size.. all the other programs are WAY bloated
     
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  44. GhulamJewel

    GhulamJewel

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    I use it to convert models to different formats or decrease poly count etc but i agree as someone has no experience in modelling it looks complicated even camera controls make no sense. Like had to Google how to move the camera around...I was thinking it would be simple editor camera movement like in Unity...there are many plugins though and its free so can’t complain.
     
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  45. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I outsource most of my 3d work. But sometimes I need to move some vertices or separate a object, or cut a hole for a door, etc, etc. I need to google every time because I forget how its done :p

    The most advanced thing I have done was to make a firearm barrel see through, I had to use the knifeproject to cut a hole than add new faces and UV map those to the exiting texture. Was pretty proud when I made it :D
     
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  46. verybinary

    verybinary

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    So... you consider it counter intuitive to have keyboard shortcuts for what you can do in Blender. Imagine everything that you can do in Blender as a button on the screen. Now, on that same screen, find your mesh.
    Blender was designed as it was, to be fluid. everything has a shortcut that's available instantly. for the actions that don't have a default shortcut, make one in the settings. Don't like a preconfigured shortcut? Change it in the settings. There is no way a tool that can do as much as Blender can do, to not have a learning curve. If you want something easy, it definitely wont be as powerful.
    I started Blender years ago, before that, I was using MilkShape. At first, I hated all the shortcuts, and missed the "clicky clicky" but now that I am familiar with most of them, and have muscle memory for various actions(and also set up a mouse with a lot of extra buttons), I have no interest in trying anything else. Easier or not. Yeah, the free aspect kinda helps too, the people that own most of these others have a bloated sense of self worth. Blender is also an artists tool. others that I know about tend to fall in the technical tool category. I like being precise, but Blender gives me precision and flow.
     
  47. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Ever seen Blender 2.49? They basically had a button for everything. Nowadays it's been divided up more sensibly accross buttons, tool shelves, and menu entries. If there still are things that you can't reach without a shortcut (as there actually were in olden days - and you had to buy the manual if you wanted a reference), it can't be all that many.

    Also check out zBrush if you wonder how many buttons and sliders you can cram into one tool. If there is any graphics program that has more of these, I'd like to know which one, just out of curiousity.
     
  48. SnowInChina

    SnowInChina

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    one thing that that i found helpful is the addon dynamic context menu
    its native in blender, just activate it unter addons
    now if you press space you have every action on one popup and don't have to look all over the place

    also, while in edit mode, the major hotkeys are pretty simple

    e for extrude
    r for rotate
    g for grab

    cmd + e for edgetools
    cmd + f for facetools
    cmd + v for vertextools
    w for specials

    makes sense if you ask me
     
  49. verybinary

    verybinary

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    Who's up for a model jam(kinda like a game jam, but for meshes in various applications)

    I have used .49
    I definitely prefer the newer.
    Isn't zbrush like the sculpting mode of blender.
    Serious questions, as I haven't tried zbrush yet, but can it do anything besides the sculpting? like rigging, animating?
    And I also remembered another reason I like Blender. Unity plays very nice with .blend
    I've barely started with the blender game engine.
     
  50. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    It's originally a 2.5D painting tool, sculpting is just the vastly more popular application for it. Originally that sculpting side of it was there to create "3D brushes" to then paint with on a 2.5D canvas that can not be rotated. That's why your 3D model in zBrush is always called tool, and everything around file handling is confusing for beginners.
    Some will tell you Blender is "just as capable for sculpting" but that is simply not true if you can utilize what zBrush has to offer.