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iPhone OS4 today

Discussion in 'iOS and tvOS' started by maxfax2009, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. Jessy

    Jessy

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    This last part isn't true; I fully understand what you're talking about, and don't believe it's any way to live. Look at the way you're typing to other human beings. Whatever you're putting yourself through is not good for you. You need to engulf yourself in a more positive, genuine existence. Maybe you should hire Tom to take you on a a one-on-one road trip / life improvement seminar. :wink:

    Who ever said I was a game artist?!?!?! :?:
     
  2. Jehsup

    Jehsup

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    What industry do you work in? There is a LOT of room there aparently for customer service... Europe? I have taken Unity into customer spaces it doen't even know about yet, or any of you. The bigger the client the less they want to hear that you can't do something, else you need a different tool. I JUST want to know if I need a different tool now or not. If in your mind you can villify me for that then do it, but like I said I got people to feed, and I would step on your neck to do it. As I am sure you would step on mine for same.
     
  3. Lokken

    Lokken

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    Believe it or not, there is more to serving a customer than asking if they want fries with that. Trust us on this.

    I'm done wasting time responding to your troll posts now. Cary on.
     
  4. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    That's exactly the sort of thing nobody needs, and it reflects very poorly on you. People who start with personal insults already lost the argument before it began. Strange how the people around here who yell the loudest about supposedly being "professionals" act the least professional of all.

    --Eric
     
  5. codinghero

    codinghero

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    You made a lot of good points. That was not one of them. Lack of viable competition breeds contempt and abuse of one's customers. If UT didn't have solid competition from GarageGames and StoneTrip (among others), 3.0 would most likely still be a few years off.

    Also, while Jehsup's comment to Tom was a bit out of line, it was true. Whether intentional or not, Tom did convey a rather poor and unprofessional attitude. Treating customers like that in a (very) public domain would get one fired from any place I've ever worked.

    I actually always thought it was kinda odd that Tom posts here so much being a product evangelist and all. I would have expected more interaction from the community managers.

    @Eric, Jessy started in on Jehsup, not the other way around.
     
  6. tinmanassets

    tinmanassets

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    No, my clients and my business partners are all experienced professionals. We all understand that the business climate is constantly changing and we are constantly adapting. When this all went down I went to my clients and said : this is the new state of things and this is how it may or may not affect us depending on this currently unknowable outcome. And we all sat down and had a chat about various plan Bs and plan Cs that will get put into place depending on the outcomes. In some cases that meant shifting our current work onto less Unity/iPhone heavy parts of the projects and in other cases it meant no change, full steam ahead. None of my meetings however was it decided that our best course of action was to worry about things we have no control over.

    Every business venture has risks associated with it. Some of these risks are known when we start (like what if we spend 6 months making a game and nobody buys it?) and others hit us out of the blue (what if apple changes the TOS and makes our choice of platform unusable?). In my experience in various fields of business, you can plan for the known risks and be ready for those, but the best thing you can do for the unknowable ones is to stay flexible and adaptable. Will we lose money and time invested if it all goes bad? Yes, absolutely, and that will suck. Welcome to business.

    You can get S***ty with me, that's fine I don't really care, and I understand that you are very frustrated and need to blow off steam. But getting S***ty with the Unity dudes seems very counter productive. Those guys are our biggest advocates in this fight.

    Again, I will say that I am optimistic. I cant say that I know the unity guys very well, but I can say that I met some of them (I was actually in the Unity booth for most of GDC so I got to interact with lots of the big wigs as well as the technical guys quite a bit) and as passionate as I am about my own indie development biz, they are twice as passionate about Unity and all of their users.

    You seem dead set on being frustrated and negative, and I am sorry, I wish there were something somebody could do for you. All I can suggest it to have a little faith in the Unity guys, they are working hard for all of us.

    Cheers!
    -Ben
     
  7. Jehsup

    Jehsup

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    Good Lord! What happened to common sense?
     
  8. Jehsup

    Jehsup

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    Have you read and understood anything I wrote? Honestly? You kill me.
     
  9. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    :roll: This, completely unprovoked and thoroughly unprofessional and uncalled-for, nothing to do with Jessy.

    --Eric
     
  10. Jehsup

    Jehsup

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    What about any of that was untrue?
     
  11. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Haha, oops I missed that one. Sorry, Eric, you called it. That was a chicken S*** move, Jehsup. I was actually thinking something similar when I read that, but I don't like to start insulting people. I still agree with your criticism of Tom's posts though. ;)
     
  12. AmazingRuss

    AmazingRuss

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    Maybe it's time to put this megathread out of our misery.
     
  13. codinghero

    codinghero

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    Totally. It's utterly useless. It makes for good melodrama though. :D
     
  14. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    Do you seriously not understand the basics of public discourse? If you have anything else to say to me, send a PM because this whole issue is completely off-topic and pointless.

    --Eric
     
  15. Jehsup

    Jehsup

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    @Jessy, if that was off the hook I apologize. I sincerely apologize Though I hope still I made a point in a way.

    My point is ONLY this, so for or against, it isn't an ego boost for me. I am a paying customer of the Unity brand, and I do not hold Unity accountable for the latest TOS mess. BUT. I do not think it is unreasonable for a UT person to announce on the forums every day that they have NO new news or what they might be planning in any eventuality. AS importantly to me is that Tom Higgins should NOT be in any way shape or form talking to paying customers like he is. Like a 12 year old with snide emotes.
     
  16. ColossalDuck

    ColossalDuck

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    There isn't much more that can be said that is on topic! Of course this doesn't help much, but just saying. Maybe it is time for this to close out?
     
  17. ChuckT

    ChuckT

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    SNR = Psignal/Pnoise = (RMSsignal/RMSnoise)^2

    Holy Crap :roll:

    Almost forgot- Notify Off.
     
  18. dcarlson314

    dcarlson314

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    *double take* ... Wow. Someone needs a nap.

    Diplomacy isn't your strong suit, apparently. We're sorry you're having a rough time of this (seriously, we emphathize), but there's not a lot you can do about it. You're just fighting the fire while fanning the flames.

    As far as you having other mouths to feed: whether that means your own children or your employees, that's no one else's problem, if I'm being blunt. You took the risks like the rest of us, so kick back, relax, have a chocolate milk (or anything that might cure that fist-sized ulcer in your gut) and wait until UT better knows wtf is going on.

    "professional Fan Boy" <---- Good one. Good to see a what your idea of "common sense" is. Child.
     
  19. schplurg

    schplurg

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    Wow. I think I'll just stick to the blog page. This thread is over :)
     
  20. mehware

    mehware

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  21. VIC20

    VIC20

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    You should better never contact AppleCare:
    "No, your cinema display is not under Apple Care!" - "I have an enrollment number!..." - "We've searched but found nothing about this enrollment number, bye"

    on the other hand:
    "Hello, there is a bug in OS X blah blah" - "Thanks for the information, we hope we can enjoy you by giving you a free iPod" (really happened to a friend)
     
  22. smilingcat

    smilingcat

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    This situation has been dragging on for far too long now. The fact that this issue has been allowed to persist for so long really tells me everything I need to know:

    If you are a developer, Apple is not serious about having you as a business partner. Rather, their view seems to be that they see developers as serfs in their fiefdom. You serve at Apple’s pleasure, and they MAY allow you to profit from the fruits of your labor so long as you follow their ever-changing and inconsistently-applied rules.

    I sent a direct question to Apple myself about the new TOS terms when this all started, even before Unity Technologies got involved. I’m still waiting for a response, but I’m not holding my breath. My carefully worded and polite query was probably round-filed. That’s a very contemptful way to treat someone who is interested in being a business partner.

    Apple is most certainly aware that many of their business partners have investments in the tens of thousands of dollars hanging in the balance waiting for this issue to be decided. Again, the fact that Apple has not provided any form of clarification after two weeks of FUD speaks volumes about the amount of contempt that Apple has toward their business partners, even those who have invested significantly in the iDevice platforms.

    I used to take all of the stories about arbitrary and capricious App Store rejections with a grain of salt. It is impossible for me to do the same now that I’ve been this close to the fire and nearly got burned. I am wrapping up my first Unity project, and my second project in Unity was to be an iPad game. I was literally several hours away from plunking down a couple thousand dollars for everything I needed to do iPad development (iPad, Mac Mini, iPhone Dev Kit, Unity IPhone) when this situation arose.

    Since then I have put my iPad development plans on indefinite hold, and have been doing a lot of soul-searching about whether I can feel confident and comfortable working with a business partner as fickle as Apple, a business partner who is apparently completely comfortable with threatening to ban the very technologies that have driven many of the top applications written for their platform. The answer is that I cannot arrive at a position of confidence and comfort with Apple as a business partner.

    Every executive must make their own decisions for their own businesses. There are many businesses whose pockets are deep enough that they can afford a $10,000+ spin on the roulette wheel that is Apple’s app store approval process. That gamble may even pay off for some of those businesses. My company, however, is not a company that can afford those sort of high-stakes games at this time.

    Should I target the iDevice platforms in the near to mid-term future, it will only be as a secondary platform for an already completed project, and only with minimal investment. I am not so prideful as to completely discount a platform that obviously has a good amount of success associated with it, but at the same time, I am too prudent to risk the future of a company still in its infancy by working with a business partner that would snub my company without a second thought. I find it a just and coincidental irony that this denies Apple the product exclusivity that they so highly crave from their developers.

    I recognize that none of the blame for this mess rests with Unity Technologies. Unity is as much of a victim in this situation as the rest of us. Unity Technologies has been a great business partner so far, and has allowed me far closer to my aspirations than I have ever been. I look forward to working with Unity Technologies for many years to come.
     
  23. GorrylIard

    GorrylIard

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    Well in real life I work in technical support side of things and what I have learned is that in all things, whether it is software, systems, legal stuff or whatever, only one thing is certain: problems will occur. And not all of them can be solved. Keeping customers updated is a pain when you have nothing to update. I thought it was rather nice of Tom Higgins to post on the forum. It is more than most people would do. The stuff we do is mostly automated, official looking notifications with a lot of fake courtesy and very little informational value.
     
  24. willtris

    willtris

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    I work in the building industry - there are two main business situations: either you develop, or you contract. If you develop, you take the bigger risk and take the larger share of the profit when there is one. If you contract, you structure your agreement to tale the lesser risk, and you get a proportionately reduced share of the profit.

    For a contractor, the agreement should describe the terms of the work so that, if conditions materially change, payment for all work to that point, done professionally and in good faith, will be enforceable, and all work to continue under revised conditions will be subject to fresh negotiation with the developer. In short, the contractor gets paid for work done - but can not rely on the work continuing to completion. In my experience, this happens as much from developers getting into trouble as from external circumstances like the ones Unity is dealing with now.

    Some have the resources and temperament to be developers, and others not.

    I am deeply sympathetic to everyone who is uncomfortable with finding that they were operating with a greater degree of risk than they had expected.

    But, I also have dealt directly with the Unity folk, and I believe that they will resolve this issue in a way that preserves the interests of both their user-base and the ongoing strength of the Unity business. They are most certainly professional, and delivering the 'be patient' message is just as difficult as being patient.

    Good time to have a real weekend off from all this...

    G
     
  25. Jessy

    Jessy

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    I don't think you're taking what I'm saying the way I meant it; perhaps you read my word "less" as "fewer", which is not what I meant. Here is clarification: there are a lot of video games made, and most of them are not made with Unity. As a console gamer, primarily, I never see anything made with Unity. Not only would I like to see that happen more because it would just be cool, but I'd also like to have more potential jobs that I could jump into as someone who knows Unity well.

    I want competitors to get better to provide Unity with a challenge, yes. But I don't want to use anything else that's out there now, and I'd like for more big studios to use Unity, so that they force it to get better, as they did before.
     
  26. AmazingRuss

    AmazingRuss

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    Holy crap? Where did he report it? I have a reproducible bug that corrupts TimeMachine volumes. I should get a Macbook Pro for that one! Haven't said anything because I figured they'd just ignore me.
     
  27. DF118

    DF118

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    As a potential customer with one week remaining on my trial licence, I've been watching this situation with some interest, still relatively confident as crunch time approaches.

    This point however has made me pause and reconsider. While concerned about Apple's selective lockdown, your attitude toward your existing customer base is making me reconsider my choice of Unity above and beyond 3.3.1.

    You don't tell your customer base to "get over it" when they have a tangible and real concern over lack of feedback. For people who have invested time, money and professional reputation in your product, "silence" intimates bad news. This is simple human psychology - hear nothing and fear the worst.

    Were you a support system you would try and update your customer each day, even if you have nothing to say (which you don't). Or at least, as often as time allows. If you have no update, you tell the customer this, because at least that way you confirm that the sky isn't falling; the worst case scenario hasn't yet been arisen.

    As a business, this must be hurting, but your attitude towards your customers is pretty poor right now.
     
  28. Jessy

    Jessy

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    I'm really sick of this silly argument. They'll tell us when they have news, and not waste everybody's time by spewing useless repetition. There's no such thing as "as often as time allows". I mean seriously, do you just want them to send you an automated email once a minute until news is heard?

    Doing anything else than what they've done would be treating us like idiots. No, thanks.
     
  29. DF118

    DF118

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    As often as time allows= as near as to each and every day as possible.
     
  30. Jessy

    Jessy

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    Tom, please write a script that emails DF118 once a day, "No news yet." This is obviously what your customers want.
     
  31. AmazingRuss

    AmazingRuss

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    The tone of this discussion has been pretty informal... I don't think responding in the way he did was out of line. It blended in perfectly with the other posts.

    I'd personally rather see informal responses like this... I'd rather deal with humans than humans trying to pretend to be corporate robots. Even if there's nothing much to say, it comes across as more honest with out that layer of formal artifice.
     
  32. aaron-parr

    aaron-parr

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    I agree. Unity is handling this well.
     
  33. JDonavan

    JDonavan

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    Sorry no, "the customer is always right" is a catch phrase meant to make potential customers feel good that got turned into a mantra by a bunch of half-witted management types. If you do work in the real world you know that the customer isn't always right and attempting to behave as if they are results in a lot of wasted time/money.

    "The customer is always right" is used as an excuse by the most douche-bag-like customers to try and get their way as if saying it often enough makes it so.

    As for how Higgy is behaving... I'm shocked he handled the people in this thread as well has he has. Stomping your E-Feet and repeatedly asking for commentary, when you've been told that as soon as they knew you'd know, is retarded.
     
  34. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    I disagree somewhat, in that I do not think it is OK to respond to posts in a condescending manner when you represent a company, no matter how informal the relation with your customers may be.

    I wrote a calm and polite post where I basically stated that in my humble opinion UT needs to be more transparent regarding what is going on. Tom's reply included telling me "in his not so humble opinion to chill out".

    I get that they have reasons for being a bit tight-lipped and that there may not be much to communicate due to NDAs and whatnot. But it is not retarded to demand information and nor is it too much to ask to be treated with civility when you do.

    To conclude, I don't really take these things personal, but they do surprise and disappoint me somewhat.
     
  35. x10z

    x10z

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    Most of you guys, should in fact get a life and leave Unity team alone in this hard moment , trying to figure out the best way to handle such an issue.

    Before you respond with the "I'm a costumer, I paid for the product, Im left with nothing and I have clients" kinda thing, screw that. Unity team is just as screwed as we all are, I'm just as screwed as most of you , I have a client , a big one btw, I'm porting a very famous flash game to unity, I have signed papers and stuff , and I'm sure I wont be able to deliver it if unity goes down, because I have no idea/knowledge on how to create a 3d engine from scratch :). Still, you don't see me here trying to get answers we all know that don't exist yet... get a life, go work on your project , you're wasting time here ! "I cant work until I know for sure" , well in that case , go out fishing , do pushups but have some respect for the ones that spent a bit more than the price of a Unity license! Unity team theirselves!!!

    And I'm with HiggyB , his answer was a little rough but in fact most of you are being a pain in the ass. 130 pages of pure speculation is just madness...not sparta.

    Thank you.
     
  36. OXYGEN

    OXYGEN

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    @xtenz: well said! :D
     
  37. ColossalDuck

    ColossalDuck

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    @x10z

    Very true.
     
  38. madwilson

    madwilson

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    It Sucks that things got so tilted out of perspective having a post once a day wouldn't be a bad move on unity's part even if it was "Same as yesterday" and yes unity is in a rock and a hard place on the infromation they can and can't give out along with the wording of such information and may or may not have an NDA agreement with apple right now none of us know.

    But Jehsup had points that were not addressed correctly or professionally do to the stress I am sure in my opinion and if I was treated in such a way on this forms it would be hard to keep a positive attitude and it only give Unity a Black Eye even if it is only the customers doing it. But the fan-boy comment was correct you gave your self the label not him. But answering his questions in such a rude way would upset just about anyone.

    That is my 2 cents in what I consider a black eye on the forms for the community sad day for us all.

    OH and if I made some one mad it wasn't my intent.....
     
  39. Hilm

    Hilm

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    I think it may be worth getting this thread back on topic and away from the heated discussion discussion about Unitys support system. I get that everyone is a little on edge and thats fair enough however having this thread turn into a string of flames dosent really aid the situation.

    So; has anyone had an app approved that was submitted since the 22nd please?
     
  40. ahloyan

    ahloyan

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    130 pages of pure speculation is just madness...not sparta.


    LOL
    keep yer ead down boys..
    its not the end of the world

    i have spent the last 4/5 months on an iphone prototype on unity iphone ....putting my measly savings into it and though i am very upset ...its not the end of the world


    thats for 2012 :)
     
  41. Melonsoda

    Melonsoda

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    What a peevish atmosphere here...

    But thats a typical human reaction. If something isn't going like expected a lot of people freak out and losing their professional manner. Like headless chicken...
     
  42. MarkHenryC

    MarkHenryC

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    To cure an unhealthy addiction to this thread, I moved my Unity iPhone projects to 2.6. Now I can continue working knowing I can at least publish somewhere.

    I do really feel for those who've built up a brand on the iPhone (unlike my first app, which disappeared without trace within days). Hopefully your fans will adopt your products on other platforms if the iPhone door shuts.

    I'd feel even worse for someone who followed the license terms only to have them change again at a later date without the safety net of easy porting.
     
  43. quickrice

    quickrice

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    I, too have been waiting for someone to make a post about their app actually getting accepted or rejected because of all this. Since I haven't seen any yet, I'll offer up my own situation as a test case and update when something happens.

    - 4/22 10:30 Submitted a version update to an existing app - WAITING FOR REVIEW


    [EDIT]
    - 4/26 15:41 Status changed from WAITING FOR REVIEW to IN REVIEW
    - 4/26 16:46 Status changed from IN REVIEW to READY FOR SALE

    Wow, 1 hr 5 minute approval! That approval was for the version update. I submitted the LITE version of this app which is an entirely new (V1.0) app on 4/26 at 19:59. I'll post an edit when the status of that one changes.
    [/EDIT]



    This version update is 3+ months of effort and investment. Since my updates no longer result in exposure on the App Store New Release lists, I've also invested additional time in developing a LITE version (that I think will be an effective marketing tool) that will be submitted for approval as soon as the Version 2 update is approved.

    Both these apps were created with Unity iPhone 1.6. and both feature the glaring 'Powered by Unity' splash screen calling maximum attention to the situation at hand. It would be hard for a reviewer to miss.

    Anyway, I'll update the post when the iTunes Connect status changes.
    Steve
     
  44. schplurg

    schplurg

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    There are a few games in the "Unity iPhone Apps in the Store - List Yours Here" sticky thread that were released since the 22nd.
     
  45. jdvcreative

    jdvcreative

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    I am a relative newbie to Unity. I have yet to even develop a game that is ready to submit to Apple. But, I fell in love with Unity the moment I saw it. It is clearly a superior tool for game development - at least for those of us who do not have PHDs in computer science.

    I've been following this thread since it started, and the discussion seems to be getting pretty heated. But I choose to remain optimistic and I hope you'll do the same. I must say that the moderator, "Higgy" is coming across a little stressed at this point and perhaps is not the voice to represent Unity if he cannot control his emotions and deliver a more professional statement than that.

    But I understand the frustration on both sides. Believe me, I have invested my money and time into learning Unity and even if Apple blocks it, I think it's been a great investment.

    I know Apple is holding all the cards when it comes to their platform, but keep in mind that with the future version Unity we can distribute to many other devices that are worth being excited about. And quite frankly, I think it would be a foolish business decision for Apple to turn their back on Unity.

    Stay upbeat folks. Life is still worth living.
     
  46. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    Higgy actually is very controlled.

    Also, UT at least gives out any information. Good luck at any other place on that :)
    Also the thread is still here and open, something likely most mods wouldn't have tolerated at all (even I would have locked it 70 pages ago)
     
  47. SquiggleDome_2

    SquiggleDome_2

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    Just some speculative information:

    It seems likely the 'engineering' on their part while still being compliant with TOS; a language extension to Unity iPhone, the one must write the logic code in Obj-C/C++ or more likely just C. Any intermediate code translation such C#/Javascript to the allowed languages are still prohibited by TOS. Writing C-based logic code that compile with UT's game engine in Xcode is possibly acceptable even if the C-based 'scripts' were written in the IDE as it might produce organized C files in the project folder and requires no intermediate translation at all.

    I've noticed this is the path that other middleware engines are taking. Again this is just speculative, I don't know if UT will take this route as well.

    Or perhaps I may be wrong. UT can possibly make a C#/JavaScript to whatever language to help those who are already in development since rewriting months of code is unacceptable.
     
  48. 3Duaun

    3Duaun

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    I'm glad the thread has stayed open, thanks to the admins!
     
  49. Lokken

    Lokken

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    Everyone needs a place to vent during times like these. It would surprise me to see this locked. You would get another dozen threads all asking why it was locked :p
     
  50. MarkHenryC

    MarkHenryC

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    Quite right. Try searching "3.3.1" on the iPhone OS 4.0 beta forum. Unity cannot provide information that doesn't exist.