Indie, copyrights, and Unity ?

As now, I do not have enough English knowledge to understand the whole Unity chart.

I'm interested in doing Indies games and as many indies developpers I would be happy to have income from my games if it's ever possible. But I know nothing at all about this regarding law.

I'm currently developping my very first arcade game, as a self-tutorial, based on a copyrighted licence. I obviously do not intend to sell it, but I wonder if I have the right to publish it for free ?

For any others game that I develop, may I sell them or set a donation system for fans as long as I make sure everything is from my own creation ?

I'm using Free Unity licence right now.

 

Then it's a no. That's from a famous video game.

And for a fully created game? Can I sell it/accept donation as I created it from Unity Free version?

 

Depends on what u said with "based". AFAIK no one can copyright an idea. As long as you don't use original art, image, logo, sound or music from original you are safe;

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

 

Hahahaha ! Well, I swear I'm almost sure to be free then. 100k, that's such a big amount.

Well, the licence is Pokémon, and I'm using some of them as characters/enemies, and more or less their attacks, but this the only part I take, which is a big one.

But I'm still not sure how the situation is about that. I mean, I saw plenty of flash games on the net about them. Did creators had the right to do so?

 

Reality check says, 'NO'. Not if it's $.99 and not if it's free. And 'Fan fiction' is not protected either. Invent your own IP.

Gigi

 

Okay, thanks for the advice.

I'm almost happy to have to give up on it because, well for a first 2D project it was way too big. Took weeks just to create and animate somes characters.

 

What's up with you and "Bookmarked" everywhere? Jeez...

 

You might want to take a look at this:

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/star-trek-broken-mirror-3-rise-of-the-empire.161829/

Obviously they are not using the Star Trek IP for profit, yet they are indeed releasing a game based on an IP they do not own. Nor do they have permission.


I'm pretty sure you're allowed to make anything you want, just as long as you don't profit from it.

I've even seen people make games with assets they do not own, by ripping assets from a game.

In fact, I know someone who makes MONEY from using Halo assets they do not own.
Everyone knows them. They are called "Red vs Blue".

http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?sid=rvb&v=more


So this is not a simple "No! No! No!" It actually sounds like a "Yes. Yes. Yes." if you indeed are just making a fan game. and not profiting from it. As for donations, as long as they are donating for another reason, no one can stop you from accepting donations. That would be like saying that you cannot have a "Feed the Children" donations link on your page just because you made a free South Park fan game.

I know for a fact that nearly all MMORPG free emulator servers survive on donations. Obviously that is not considered profit from the emulator, or else those AAA businesses would be able to stop them.

 

Wrong.

If you haven't got official approval from the IP owner you are not legally allowed to use it in your product no matter if its free, charity or commercial. It's another thing if they bother to come after you but there are numerous cases where free can be bad too. Even if you don't profit a cent from your fan game, the site that hosts the installer or webplayer for you might get ad revenue. Even if you don't intend to hurt the IP with your game and have word unofficial flashing everywhere the game can hurt the IP imago or etc it someway which you can't even guess (like it being associated with other trademark, drugs or what ever).

 

edit: Oops, wrong thread, I didn't say some of what I'm talking about in this thread, I said it HERE instead.

If no one comes after you, even if they can, I'd consider that being allowed. Or at least "dangerously allowed" or "dangerously allowed, kindof but not really". Hahahaha...

You also can't say "WRONG" as if this is a universal law across the planet. In North Korea, you are definitely allowed if The Leader says so.

We aren't talking about right/wrong or moral/immoral (although that is debatable as well). We are talking about legality and reality.

TLDR: Laws are different across the world, so no, not "Wrong."

I apologize if my perspective offends you, but I could care less what huge businesses think when they cry over a fan making a free game from their IP.



Seriously, most people appreciate when fans create things with their IP. Just look at "My Little Pony." Imagine how the fans would react if they began to sue people for drawing their characters on Deviant Art or discouraged people from ever using the IP for any reason. Allowing corporations to lord over the little guy who simply wants to make a free game with pure intentions, is just a few steps away from allowing people fair use. Arguably, making free games and not profiting in any way sounds like fair use. At least to me.

 

Well then it's like "You're not allowed to, you're not supposed to, but if you do so, you've low chance anything goes wrong as long as it's free and/or not much known.

 

Not suppose to, according to whose perspective?

IMO, you are suppose to. If everyone disagreed with draconian copyright control in relation to non-profit free fan-made things, then the laws would change and suddenly "not allowed to" becomes "you're allowed to" because enough people said "you're suppose to".

"You're suppose to" is how Fair Use law came about, because some people said "You're not allowed to".

 

I am sure the "huge business" will also not care very much when they drag you to court and ruin your life.

and thats sums it up

this is not something where everyone can have their own opinion.
its defined and protected by law. Btw one indie team was making a my little pony fighting game and they got shut down by hasbro (it was nonprofit and all). there you go.

using someone`s IP or models is like crossing the street without looking left and right
maybe you are lucky, but most likely you wont last very long.

 

No, it is not like that at all.

Copyright and digital goods are a brand new concept, with laws lagging behind their invention and changes.

Court decisions decide this stuff, and even though big business has a lot of power, it is not always the victor.

You also can't simply have your life ruined because someone takes you to court. It entirely depends on what you're charged with, what they're suing you for, and what the results of the suit are.

Very often, the result is nothing more than the creator taking down their product and never using it again. Poor people don't have much money, and big business don't want to look super evil by suing a poor person for damages. You also can't take something that a person doesn't have.

Besides, if it ever came down to something real, like a threat of lawsuit (which often precedes the lawsuit, as those are expensive for big businesses), although my stance wouldn't change in not caring what they think, my actions wouldn't necessarily reflect that stance. Just because I don't care about them, doesn't mean I wouldn't take down a fan-made game if threatened. I don't care what NRA gun-nuts think, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be concerned if one of them put a gun to my head. Duh.

Big Business does often care as well, because picking on the little guy can be bad PR, especially if they were a fan of them who weren't profiting and just wanted to make others happy. Imagine the response of fans if My Little Pony started picking on their fans because of the fan's use of their IP. It wouldn't be this big success for them. Their PR guy would rage quit long before it resolved.

Real life is not so cut and dry where "illegal" equates to "immoral" and "shouldn't" equates to "your life will be destroyed if you do". In this circumstance, such a grey area with IP use in a free game, a person can go ahead and do it and see what happens. If nothing, then great. If something, then it probably will just get taken down. If it's popular, it won't matter because the person isn't responsible if the internet refuses to take it down. All that matters is that THEY take it down and THEY stop. Yet another reason why a company might not take action, simply because they can't do anything about it. Not to mention the respond that could result if they tried.

Look at this example, where a business tried to control their name (not dissimilar to an IP) by punishing people for negative reviews. Was the internet kind to them? Although not exactly the same, this is a great example of how it's not cut and dry where we have no protections from both law and reality. Reality is very different then law or some random person's version of societal ethics "You can't!"

You say

but not only is that not true since the law is not absolute in this area (as if it is ever absolute), but also you can still have an opinion while being contrary to law. Especially grey-area law or brand new law (or archaic law).
You can definitely have an opinion, such as someone who says "Not only is this a bad law, but I believe people should not follow it and do everything they can to circumvent it!" has that opinion despite it being "defined and protected by law."

 

As you can see, the creators of "Fighting is Magic" were not sued by Hasbro "when they drag you to court and ruin your life."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Is_Magic

Also note this part:

Take note on that link:

Check that out. It wasn't this cut and dry "It's the Law" decision.

It was "You could win, but it will be expensive." and they didn't have the money to fight it.

Like I said, it isn't "the law" like people are saying. These things are decided in Court. If it were "The law" then there would be no way to win against them.



What was the result of their fan game? Pretty much the same thing. Check THIS out:

So they got to have original My Little Pony characters, developed by Faust from My Little Pony.

Hasbro can't do anything about that. Suck it.

If they never got into this battle with Hasbro, they never would have gotten Faust's assistance in creating an awesome game.

So what happened to "Not supposed to"? Oh that's right. "Not supposed to" was IGNORED, they had to cease and desist because they lacked the money to fight it, but in the end they got Faust to help them create new My Little Pony characters. Sorry, but this is a win for the fan team Mane6.




Finally, you can still download and play Fighting Is Magic, despite Hasbro's cease and desist order.
In REALITY, Hasbro cannot take away Fighting is Magic because the internet owns it.
Mane6 is not responsible for the internet's actions, and Hasbro cannot touch the internet.

 

@CarterG81, it is illegal to create a game based on the IP of someone else without an explicit permission. There is no actual topic to be discussed.

 

i am well aware of the fact that most of the Publishers/IP owners have to watch out for bad PR.
And all the stuff you mentioned is true, at least to some degree.

But this doesnt change the fact that its illegal. Some may tolerate it, but thats their decision.
And yes, different countrys have different laws. But most developed countrys have laws to protect intelectual property
and they are pretty similar to some degree.

and just because you dont profit from your game doesnt mean it has no impact whatsoever.
it has nothing to do with picking on the little guy, it has to do with protecting your property and profits from it.
Because, while you most likely live in your dream world where everything is free, other people actually have to pay rent, food, and all the other crap.

so while you are thinking "woah, iam just making a nonprofit fan game", business people are thinking
"hm, does his game draw away users from our games ?"
"why are people emailing us and complain about a S***ty game we never made?"
and so on

now, you might think thats bullshit because you are really bad at making games and most likely only 20people will play your game.
but if this thing were okay, maybe more skilled people will do the same and create something with triple A quality which will be the next hit


if you invented something amazing, you wouldn't want someone else to copy yours and give it away for free.

 

I'm not offended but it's really bad practice to advise people here to do things that are generally considered illegal or bad in the gaming industry. And you for not caring a bit what people use others IP illegally should make people see that they should not listen you at all.

 

If it is illegal, then why did Mane6's lawyers think about taking on the case?
If they had the money, they could have taken them to court.

You say it's illegal, but you ignore how our legal system actually works.

It is not a criminal action punished by law. It is a civil case. Violating a court order to cease and desist is a criminal action punishable by law, but that is not the same thing as violating a lawyer's cease and desist request, taking them to court, and winning in court. Once you win, all of a sudden, your actions are considered, by law, to be perfectly legal.

 

I am not advising anyone to do anything illegal, nor is a fan making a game bad for the gaming industry.
Once more, depending on their nation, it may or may not be illegal. Not everyone on the forums resides in the same country.

I also request for you to give me the exact law that considers a fan-made non-profit game to be illegal. Please cite the exact law. Ah that's right, you don't know if it's illegal or not. From my understanding, it actually is not illegal. It is far from it. Just because it isn't illegal, doesn't mean the IP owner cannot sue you or force you to cease and desist.

There are requirements in court cases for the prosecution. They have to not only cite the law, they have to correctly interpret it, prove their interpretation is correct, and then prove the defendant is guilty of specific actions which violate the law.

Finally, did you even read the case of Hasbro vs. Mane6 team and Fighting Is Magic?
It benefited the game industry. Mane6 have their own video game, with assistance from several celebrities, resulting in a successful kickstarter campaign to produce their own game, free of the IP.

If anything, past examples of cease and desist requests relating to IP's and game development, result in nothing more than the same game, just with an extremely similar theme. They change the theme *just enough* to be considered an original work.

I am not advising anyone to do anything. I am merely talking about the reality and how your claims that is it illegal is not set in stone. No one should believe you until you can prove it with a related article citing a specific law. Civil court battles are not necessarily about illegal criminal activity. Civil cases can be resolved without going to trial, or even before any paperwork is filed.

 

all you quoted says :
we could go to court but it would cost us too much money
(yes, thats what happens when you get sued,its doesnt even say anything about a chance of winning)
that lauren faust joined up with them to create new artwork and that they renamed the game
(again, Hasbro own the ip, faust was just hired to work on it. even faust knows she cannot use artwork she created for a client)

so, wheres your point ?
thats exactly what i was saying.

well, you seem to live in your own dream world, so i will stop arguing with you.
i will even admit that you are right and i am wrong, if this makes you feel better.
eventually you will run into trouble at some point with your legal understanding, but luckily that won't be my problem.

 

Why would anyone go to court if there are absolutely no chance of winning? Because they enjoy wasting their time and money?

I'm sorry, but you act as if there are no cases where a copyright violation was not proven. As if the defendant is always guilty when sued for copyright violations.

What dream world do I live in? The reality? I have cited sources and evidence to back my claim. You have cited nothing but disagreeing while making unsubstantiated claims.


If you like, you could educate yourself on the laws relating to companies claiming copyright infringement.


Here's an article about times when video games led to lawsuits. (Interesting enough, more than just copyright problems).

http://mentalfloss.com/article/55078/11-times-video-games-led-lawsuits




You should also educate yourself on each nation's copyright law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Copyright_law_by_country

Laws can differ based on if the developer resides in America, Europe, Australia, Asia, Africa, South America, etc.

The Internet is not exclusive to a single continent.



Finally you stated,

However, I don't develop fan made games and don't use anyone's IP. All of my works are and will forever be original works. I don't understand why people would want to create a fan-made game when they could simply make their own. To each their own though.

Not sure how I will "eventually run into trouble" simply for being educated on how real life works and how most disputes between IP holders and fans end up. In the case of My Little Pony, it looks like everyone won. No one would have won if they followed your advice and never started their fan project.

Because I disagree that non-profit fan-made games are wrong, and back up my opinion with circumstances where the final decision is not this absolute 'your life will be destroyed in court' resolution...somehow that translates into "eventually running into trouble at some point"? LOL sure, okay?

 

I'm not sure if you actually understand what IPs consist and how laws go? As bare example if the OP lives the USA and makes My Little Ponies 3D and then makes it available for everyone in the world, like me (I live in Finland) the laws that will be applied are ours and EU, not the USA ones. If you like I can find the IP entry from http://www.finlex.fi/en/ for you to then Google translate around. If the OP does now want to mess with our laws or IP licensees in Finland he should not distribute it here and should limit the availability ie with content region filtering.

 

Hmm I was about to reply CarterG81 latest post my to my comment but seems someone removed it

Anyways based on the removed post I was about to say I'll end this conversation here.

 

Hell...it's about time.

(StarCraft II reference)

 

Profit is not relevant. You cannot STEAL IP except in very few situations such as satire and significant forms of social commentary, and even then the borrowed material has to be a relatively small portion of the new material. The only way stealing IP from Pokemon, or Mario, or <Insert your favorite game here> doesn't hurt you is if your game sucks and no one notices. In which case, why bother stealing the IP at all, since no one noticed...

1) Invent your own IP
2) ?
3) Win the Internet

Gigi

 

...Which still leaves you stranded on the grounds to be sued, unfortunately.

 

(Bookmarked)

Anyways, our OP may wish to consult the vast wisdom contained in this thread; the inhabitants of these forums (myself included) have noticed certain common trends, that we have proceeded to make fun of. Hopefully, our comedic critique will help you avoid a major pitfall.

 

StarCraft II, dammit. I demand you exhibit an equally "impressive" knowledge of sci-fi media, as I do*, or I'll "No True Scotsman" all over your deluded nerd fantasies of being a nerd.

*: Actually, I don't. I've met people with a near-encyclopedic knowledge of Star Wars, Star Trek, or Babylon 5 trivia about them, and are apparently native in Technobabble as a second language, as appropriate to the series/franchise in question. I am not one of those. So, I'm really only demanding a barely-passable knowledge of Sci-Fi media. That dosen't change the fact that you were way the heck off, though.

 

Oops got the names mixed up.

My bad.