Search Unity

  1. Megacity Metro Demo now available. Download now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Unity support for visionOS is now available. Learn more in our blog post.
    Dismiss Notice

I'm of the view that graphics matter more (overall) than gameplay...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by splattenburgers, May 23, 2020.

  1. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,083
    That's the art direction, not the graphics.
     
    Billy4184 likes this.
  2. jjejj87

    jjejj87

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Posts:
    1,115
    typo :) i meant to say was-
     
  3. jjejj87

    jjejj87

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Posts:
    1,115
    I don't think it aged well tho...

    It looks really bad.
    Crysis aged well...but HL2? don't think so.
     
  4. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    I very seldom play flat screen games these days, but when I do I almost always think, man this would be awesome in VR :D
     
  5. Billy4184

    Billy4184

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Posts:
    6,008
    Well to put it another way, one might say it's only still good because nothing else has come along.
     
  6. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2017
    Posts:
    966
    Possibly, though logically, it’s hard to even devise of anything. The only parts of the human body capable of expressing the complexities of language are our vocal chords and our fingers. Speech is perfect for things like asking Siri things, but doesn’t work for anything more than a few sentences. My throat hurts if I lecture for more than half an hour. Fingers are the only option. Shape and layout might evolve, but that basic fact seems axiomatic. Reading the mind is the only better option and we’re decades if not centuries away from that kind of tech baring some revolution that makes an mri fit in a hat and a detailed understanding of how the mind actually works, which we have no idea.

    anyway, someone hit the nail on the head with art design trumping graphical fidelity. The games that look the “most realistic” for new hardware, and the ones that age the worst.
     
  7. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    Well if you Google half life 2 aged well you will see I'm not alone. The levels are just so well designed and detailed. But sure the textures are low res and not so many fancy shaders though the water still holds pretty well. Also they added in new tech along the ride so ep2 looks better than orginal hl2

    Crysis is a very well aged game, interiors are not as impressive as exteriors in that game though.

    Edit: foliage in hl2 never looked that great
     
  8. You're either Anders or his twin brother. :D

    Maybe I am the only one who gave up on HL2 on the "jet-ski" level? It was super-boring for me.
     
    EternalAmbiguity likes this.
  9. splattenburgers

    splattenburgers

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Posts:
    117
    Half-life 2 is the ultimate example of a game that was only praised at the time because of new technology, and not gameplay. At the time it had so many new technologies that were revolutionary at the time. Realistic physics. Bump mapping. The gravity gun etc.

    But fast foward to 2020 and the game's technology can no longer provide the same wow factor that it did at the time, and that leaves us with only the actual game. And that game doesn't hold up. The story is mediocre despite what most say. The level design is boring safe maybe for only a few specific sections like Ravenholm. The gunplay is average at best. The gravity gun feels gimmicky now rather than amazing like it did at the time since realistic physics are no longer a gimmick but a standard.

    If half-life 2 got released today, it would be a 7/10 game.
     
  10. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,083
    MDA Digital is the company that Virtual Warfighter is released under :v

    If a 16 year old game can be released today and get 7/10, it is the very definition of having aged well. This November, Half Life 2 will be old enough to drive a car.
     
    angrypenguin likes this.
  11. I guess I was absent from the forum when this happened. :D
    But that style is undeniably recognizable anywhere.
     
    bobisgod234 and EternalAmbiguity like this.
  12. splattenburgers

    splattenburgers

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Posts:
    117
    No. Games that age well age well because they are objectively good. This is why people still play Super Mario 1 despite it having old as dirt graphics. It's still a reasonably fun game.

    The reason some games "age poorly" is because they were never very good to begin with and merely wowed people at the time with some kind of gimmick. Take for example Goldeneye on the N64. It was never good. People just thought it was good at the time because the idea of a fps on a console was a gimmick at the time.
     
  13. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,083
    What absolute ahistorical rubbish. You are stripping all historical context in an attempt to better serve your position while also ignoring the way modern games recontextualize older ones.
     
    Lurking-Ninja and AcidArrow like this.
  14. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Posts:
    5,181
    These are childish gamer opinions, not serious game developer discussion.

    Goldeneye sold millions and entertained millions for years on end. Nobody cares if its still fun a thousand years later. I didn't like mario when it came out and I don't like it now, whoop dee doo.
     
  15. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    You just called it "a 7/10 game" yourself. Since when is 7/10 not "good"? This, by the way, is exactly why the terms "good" and "bad" aren't useful, per @zombiegorilla's earlier posts. They're terms so broad that they're not useful for anything constructive past, perhaps, setting a vague sense of direction.

    Further examples:

    Despite using deliberately low-fidelity style and technology among other 3D platformers, Grow Home looks great, has charming style and clearly communicates everything a player needs to know.

    Despite using a cinematic style and industry leading high-fidelity technology among other 3D action games, I found the boss fights in Jedi: Fallen Order to be underwhelming largely due to their graphical presentation. Sure, they look spot on for the Star Wars franchise and everything is dramatic and aesthetically pleasing, but it just doesn't achieve the same level of visual clarity as other melee fighting games.
     
  16. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,083
    Fallen Order is kinda fascinating because the cutscenes and setpiece introductions look absolutely stunning, but when I try and think about anything else in that game it just turns to mush.
     
  17. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    It's the next melee game I played after God of War. I don't think anything was going to hold up well as a follow up act from that.

    I did enjoy Fallen Order a lot overall. I think the boss fights probably suffered in particular because they had to stick to the established conventions of all things Star Wars. Fighting with a stick of plasma looks cool in the movies, but in this game it... has issues. Sometimes a move literally cuts a person in half, other times it bounces off. The damage comes from heat rather than cutting, but then a slower two-handed attack apparently does more damage..? The whole "heat" thing with wounds being immediately cauterised robs them of the giant splats that just about every other fighting game uses to signify a successful hit. Movement of the sabers has no little to no correlation with how dangerous something is, but the bright streaks of light often obfuscate more important information.

    Some of the graphic design was also just... of poor usability. The boss health bars had dark backgrounds typically against other dark backgrounds. Since I couldn't reliably tell by looking at the characters I'd often glance up to see if I'd connected well... and still couldn't see because it was unclear where the end of the bar was. And then there's the way people glow yellow if they killed you until you hit them again, overriding the red glow of an unblockable attack.

    Effectiveness of their visual communication (ie: the design behind all of their graphics) was just all over the place, despite the implementation being of great fidelity.

    Lots of fun to be had there, and I definitely enjoyed it overall. But also loads we can learn from. :)
     
  18. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    MDA Digital is a family company, though there is no twins in that family ;)
     
  19. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    If you guys like melee combat you should try Blade & Sorcery, super ugly graphics (unlit basically) but man, great melee
     
  20. splattenburgers

    splattenburgers

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Posts:
    117
    7 isn't a bad score per say, but consider that Half-life 2 was at the time (and still is by many) considered literally one of the greatest games ever made. There is a pretty damn big difference between "merely ok" and "greatest game ever made". My point was that Half-life 2 is massively overrated and that the game was massively halo'd by all the new technology at the time. Now that that technology is no longer new, we can see the game itself for what it actually is: An okish fps with a weak story and some physic puzzles.
     
  21. unit_dev123

    unit_dev123

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2020
    Posts:
    989
    Foliage in general has issues and always will until tech becomes real good, because of nature of complex mesh and material.
     
  22. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    There is some pretty amazing foliage out there though. So I do not totally agree but yes, foliage is one of those tings that are hard to get good. Hard surface stuff with PBR materials isn't as hard.

    That said if I must pick something that haven't aged that well with hl2 it's the foliage
     
  23. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    You are wrong half life 2 spun on the half life 1 foundation and delivered an awesome epic adventure. I just replayed the whole thing in VR and even at that large scale it looks fantastic. You can offcourse see it's built on dated shaders etc. But it doesn't matter as much since the world is so vivid.
     
  24. unit_dev123

    unit_dev123

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2020
    Posts:
    989
    I think a lot of games to date render foliage as planes, if u played something like 'a plague tale' or 'assassin creed' etc.

    Mainly this is done for performance reasoning. So yes while you can use hard surface mesh it is probably not viable at least where we are now, excluding nanite tech of course ;)
     
  25. unit_dev123

    unit_dev123

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2020
    Posts:
    989
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  26. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    I ment that foliage is harder to get right than a hard surface. Hard surfaces today are very accurate thanks to PBR.
     
  27. unit_dev123

    unit_dev123

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2020
    Posts:
    989
    i know what you mean, i think. hard surfaces is generally used for terms like geometric shapes like walls, meshes.

    But plants and trees are often approximates of this, sometimes like in game like 'plague tale' and 'assasins creed' they approximate this with just plane stacks and it looks odd when you move around at different angles.

    In future when geometry is not issue i don't feel there will be problem anymore.

    Also no sub surface scattering materials are common as these are very cpu intense.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  28. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,083
    Hell, Crysis comes back as a great example. This is from 2011, the vanilla version of the game:
    You know what, here's a link to the Crysis one because the forums just do not like this image: https://i.imgur.com/L68O2Ec.png

    Here's me being extremely generous using a Half Life 2: Episode 2 screenshot for comparison:
     
  29. MDADigital

    MDADigital

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Posts:
    2,198
    Yeah those trees are the ones I thought of when I said hl has bad foliage :) the more barren type trees looks better

    abfwxXq~2.png
     
  30. Vryken

    Vryken

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Posts:
    2,106
    Graphics are important, yes, but you are making a game at the end of the day, not a movie. That's not to say that you can just ignore graphics if you have some killer gameplay mechanics, because it works both ways:
    People might not like to play a bad game with good graphics, just like other people might not like to play a good game with bad graphics.

    Personally, what you feel for graphics, I feel for soundtracks. A game could have bad graphics and bad gameplay, but would still suck me in if it has a great soundtrack. Likewise, a game could have great graphics and great gameplay, but if I can't tolerate the soundtrack at the bare minimum, I won't buy it (though I've never run into any games like this so far).

    That's just my opinion though, but I don't believe a soundtrack matters more overall than gameplay. After all, I'm playing a game at the end of the day, not listening to an album.
     
  31. DimitriX89

    DimitriX89

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Posts:
    551
    Graphics only matter up to the point of the following "minimal requirements": they need to be informative (objects not blending with the background, accurate feedback to all player's actions, readable interfaces), and stylistically consistent (no lowpoly characters on a map decorated with 3d scans, for example). If it wasnt true, we wouldnt have indie scene.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  32. unit_dev123

    unit_dev123

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2020
    Posts:
    989
    if you dont have mechanics than it doesn't matter how good your graphics are. it will fail. so if you are to concentrate or give priority to one thing it to be mechanics i feel.
     
  33. Billy4184

    Billy4184

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Posts:
    6,008
    If a game is not reasonably pretty I'm not interested, it's as simple as that. I play a game to experience an interactive fantasy, not to strengthen my wrist and thumb.
     
  34. Billy4184

    Billy4184

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Posts:
    6,008
    I saw this today and thought it was an interesting perspective.



    While it seems clear to me that 'aesthetic driven development' helped, I also think the complexity and genre of the game, as well as the higher price, helped drive more sales.

    Mike Rose has said many times that games under $15 struggle to sell in general, and their earlier games were very cheap.

    Anyway, I think it's an interesting way to approach nailing down the aesthetic and graphics of a game with feedback from your audience, and it shows that the aesthetic of the game is important.
     
  35. unit_dev123

    unit_dev123

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2020
    Posts:
    989
    very interesting video billy, i enjoyed watching it!
     
    Billy4184 likes this.