I'm coming up with an overview

I've been working at game design for about a year and a half now. I got an interest in it longer than that ago, but that's how long I've been learning. There is a lot to know. I've come up with a list of all the things that I believe are necessary for making a game. They range from modeling to code to specific features.

Please don't think this is just a disorganized heap of jargon. I will be describing my understanding of the list in wordpad.

http://hastebin.com/qekogobefo.hs

 

Here's my list for what you should know if you want to make a good game:

Pretty much everything.

So start reading!

 

This has to be the most unique way of stating that you're designing an MMO.

 

I think it takes a genius to design any type of video game. What it doesn't take a genius to do is modify/add/delete content for a game with an engine that's already been written.

 

It does take time and money though. Building an MMO is possible for an individual but the number of people who have successfully achieved it is in the single digits. Most people are not going to take it seriously.

 

Just Google Free MMO. Look at the first 10. Your game will not have 1% of that content after 5 years, same goes for player following, etc. That's just assuming you can get it off the ground. You can't afford the electrical and internet bills, the costs for hardware, etc. anyway.

And I'm sorry, but you still have to be pretty damn good to modify an engine that's already been written.

 

Not to mention Unity would only really be the client. He'll be spending far more time with the server-side.

No, it is very clearly organized. It would be a stretch to claim any of it pertains to game design though.

 

I don't even understand what this is. But yeah, an MMO is the worst thing you could try to make for your first game.

 

There is no doubt you have identified many details that may come into play in your game development but it is not game design. This is more like prep work listing all of the specific skills/tasks you have identified.

First thing is... WHAT is the game you are working on?
If you have not chosen a game to make, then choose something.

Then watch some videos of people playing that kind of game (walkthroughs are great) and you will have a much better idea what you need to learn.

I think you are focusing so much on the individual trees you may be completely missing the forest.

 

It kind of feels like he walk through a forest and just named everything he saw

 

Google "Game Design" , "Ludology" and "Game Design Document Template".

Game design avoids unnecessary details if possible, artist and programmers know their field of work the best so we always try to stay on the highest possible level. We simply list requirements, document end results and guide them to ensure that we do not get Rambo fighting rainbow spewing ponies. It also helps the project if we do not need to update GD docs every time something is changed and if both programmers and artists understand the same text etc.

That link lead to something that reminded more of an early technical document... or something in that direction at least.

 

So what. Let the guy try. As a parent, I can tell my kids not to do something day after day and unless they try it and fail, they don't believe it. If he wants to make an MMO, then let him.

We are making an MMO, does that make our work any less important? Should we go away? Now, unlike this young man, we have experience working on MMO's and our programmers have some small games finished or near finished. We are not diving into an MMO (other than the networking) but starting small with a multiplayer game and then moving up. I know from experience what work is involved in an MMO and for a single person, it can be daunting.

But, not impossible. I always wondered why people feel this need here to bash anyone who wants to make an MMO. I think it is wise to tell people it is difficult, that it takes a lot of time and money, and that they will need help. As for success, most people who start games are not successful, regardless of the game type. Like any creative endeavor, we don't always do it for success. Sometimes we do it just to see if we can do it.

I have a lot of respect for all of you and I have learned a lot. But even if we fail at finishing our game, we will never regret trying. This is the most fun I have had in years!

Oh..and I want to say that all this MMO bashing makes me afraid to share details of our game. I don't want to be "not taken seriously" or ridiculed. And I am a grown up with experience behind me. I can't imagine how many people fail to get involved because they are afraid of being dismissed. A forum should be supportive.

 

There's value in a brainstorm bucket. We're only human; we can't remember everything. It keeps you from losing ideas, and it frees up brainspace for new ideas. The hard part as a designer is boiling it down into a concept as @GarBenjamin and Deon Cadme suggest.

<rant>Ugh, "ludology", "ludo-narrative dissonance," and other terms students make up to keep their parents writing checks for their grad programs. Can't we just go back to "game design" and "game story?"</rant>
On a more productive note, also google "game treatment." This is typically a 1-2 page overview. The first test of a concept is whether you can boil it down to 1-2 pages. If not, then you haven't found its core principle yet. Even a sprawling MMO can be summed up in a few words. For example, the old MMO Dark Ages of Camelot could be summed up as "realm-vs-realm PvP in a fantasy MMO".

 

Does your MMO's overview consist of entries like "for loop", "if statement", and "undo and redo"? I have no problems with someone attempting an MMO, but they shouldn't do it for what is very clearly their first project.

This isn't merely a case of trying to walk when he hasn't learned to crawl. This is like trying to run a marathon without knowing how to stand up.

I simply cannot take the OP seriously at this stage.

 

Ha ha. I get tired of the continual need to explicitly label every object, element, behavior and so forth as well. Worse, to assign new names just to make the things seem new. That happens entirely too often in game industry (though coining new terms and need to label everything seems to apply to most everything else too).

I guess we can take some pride in being Ludologists. It has a "better" feel than saying hey we study games. I honestly think that is the reason for most of these terms. Someone got tired of people making light of their study and so coined a fancy term.

 

Ludology isn't a word created by students, it is the scientific name of this field... Game Treatment or more commonly known as "Game Pitch Document", "Game Concept Document". These documents are less about testing the idea and more about filtering the design into its core components so that you can better determin its USP, market values, target group and platforms etc... people higher up in organizations love them because they do not want to read your complete game design on X hundred pages... Also, these documents do not have to be limited to 2 pages, they can be much bigger. I want to remember that Bioshock had a 6-8 pages long concept document... One I worked on passed 20 pages because we needed more text and images to explain features that had not been done before.

 

I have nothing against someone, even a "noobie", tackling a MMORPG. I have tried to provide some encouragement and guidance to them. When everyone tells them to "make pong" I suggest they tackle a section of their game. Think micro scale. Like get a mini town area running. Focus on piece at a time. Once they complete the micro area they can roll it out to large game world.

I think it is like @Ryiah said... this does not look like a game design but list of all things game dev. I don't even see where it is a sign of a MMO but maybe I missed that in the document

I think most of us here have a lot of respect for you. You write with experience and optimism.

 

I did not say it was coined by students... it is usually the scientists and researchers who come up with the labels. Did it need a scientific name? I see no harm in giving it a name. I just don't think it actually needed one.

 

I got the impression from the "game specific" section of the document. Auction houses, instancing and matchmaking, player housing, quests, etc. These are all typically MMO-related concepts.

Exactly. Teila has experience and is not attempting an MMO for her very first project. That makes all the difference. I would love to hear the details from her. Especially as she's mentioned permadeath in other threads.

 

I don't know. I spent an hour last night trying to get something to do something that it wasn't clearly meant to do... and in the end I realized that the functionality I was trying to achieve is already built-in, in a sense. So it wasn't even necessary. Didn't work. Lost an hour of sleep for no good reason, didn't really learn anything.

Trial and error, the "school of hard knocks" is good n' all... but if you try to learn everything by not listening to advice, plowing on, etc. You'll be in your late 60's by the time you accomplish anything.

Point is, take advice. Google. Read up. It's all free.

 

Aww, what a nice thing to say! Thank you.

My past experience was as a team member, not the project lead. I started as writer, became the lead lore manager with a team of about 8 writers, and then eventually starting working with the Project Lead as a designer. This lasted 10+ years so I learned a lot about the entire game process. But this is MY first project as a designer/manager/jack-of-all-trades.

Everyone has to start somewhere. And if this fella wants to start with an MMO, who cares really. He seems organized and he is thinking about it. He didn't just come here to ask us to do it for him, but to show us his brainstorming. I would recommend to him that he goes to the Teaching forum and find that thread on the MMO tutorials by Christian. Watch those and at least it will give him a start.

If he has an enjoyable experience, then it will be worth the effort, even no game actually comes out of the process.

 

Experience being a team member can still help you be a successful leader.

I prefer to tell someone up front if the project they are tackling is going to be a massive undertaking and that they shouldn't underestimate the effort involved. I will give you that he at least didn't start off with a "How do I" question that so many ask.

His second post makes me conclude that he thinks it is a simple matter of modifying an engine. Which if this were an MMO engine I might concede that point, but it is a generic game engine. It is so much more complex than simply modifying the engine for client-side.

An MMO server, even stripped of more advanced features like load balancing, is still a very big undertaking and so much more than simply "modify/add/delete content for a game with an engine".

He might be better served picking up an engine dedicated to MMOs such as Hero Engine. At the very least it would allow him to prototype without worrying about the underlying software.

 

I think a lot of times people start off with things like MMORPGs because they really enjoy that genre and because there are so many demos showing how easy it is to make stuff in Unity. They see a demo showing the animator and the physics and so forth and it kind of looks like it is not far off from being a complete game. The graphics look good etc. They don't realize it is just an empty shell of a game not a real game. It reminds me a lot of many mobile games. They basically just have very good graphics, use the physics system and smooth animations but they are empty game shells. There is nothing to them. No heart so to speak. Anyway, I think that maybe tricks new devs into thinking it is easy.

 

True. The server is the part that is taking the longest for us so far. I have one programmer dedicated to doing just that and it is still taking a lot of time. Fortunately, I have another programmer who is dedicated to the game part of the game.

We were strongly encouraged to use Hero Engine as well but decided on Unity. Of course, we thought we had a networking solution which turned out to be "not so great", at least not yet. So had to start over from scratch. Hero Engine is more difficult to use overall than Unity but it is better for networking and ultimately publishing.

 

I will never plan, design, dream about or create an MMO because of networking.

 

Yup! You should have seen me when I first joined a team. LOL I was so impossible, always arguing with the Lead Designer. We need this and this and this! Again, I learned so much and have become much more realistic about what one can or cannot do in a game, any game, but especially an MMO.

I guess if I could give one word of advice to someone wanting to make an MMO.....join a team and learn. Stick with the team for longer than a month. Listen, debate, listen...listen..listen. Most teams would love a programmer as long as he has some experience. Many would love someone to help design, even if it is just making flow charts. No matter how menial, you will learn so much.

 

Who is out there telling them that it's not easy?

When someone steps up and tells people the truth they get hammered by all of the white knights, ponies and care bears the internet can muster. If I made the topic I want to make, about the infeasibility of making a successful MMORPG in the year 2015, it would be slammed. If it wasn't closed after a flame war broke out, it would die a silent death of no replies.

When you silence dissent and tell everybody "you can do it"! Well, you get what we have here.

 

I also don't see him anywhere saying he thinks he can make the best MMORPG in the year anything. Are you frustrated by other threads and projecting?

Well, did you read this thread? I, who I assume you are calling a "Care Bear" or "Pony", have mentioned several times that it is not easy and have given him advice on what he needs to do to learn before he tackles a project like this alone. It is called CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not just a worthless "DON'T DO IT", like so many do. So what do I call those people? What words will capture their cynicism and rudeness? Oh, and their need to tell other people what they can or can't do? lol Or worse, who think they know the TRUTH.

Cranky old folks? Know-it-alls? Or maybe a few other words that my "Care Bear" mentality won't allow me to use.

Ironic how I am a Care Bear in this thread but just mean in the Death thread.

By the way, I don't agree with tossing around insults..which is my reason for posting. You can make your argument without name calling.

 

Well to be fair he hasn't even said what he was making. We're just extrapolating based off his jargon list.

 

I just re-read the original post and actually they said "I've been working at game design for about a year and a half now." and the list is all of the things they have identified are needed to pull it off.

So... I must apologize to the OP for my comments. I either skimmed the post too quickly or else had my mind elsewhere.

Actually makes much more sense now. So you have a game design. And you have a list of requirements to bring the game into reality.

I guess part of the confusion is... what is the reason for your post?

Are you asking something or just sharing what you have done so far?

 

I think he was scared off. Too bad. You need a thick skin in this industry.

 

Dear Op,

Here's my overview:

The computer game industry is one dominated by a handful of power players, corporations with staffs of artists, writers, designers and talented people from all technical fields working continuously to produce competitive games in an increasingly tech savvy world where people have more options on how to spend their time (and money) than ever before.

In order to succeed, you need to be talented, well-educated, disciplined but that's not all. You need to have drive. You need to be able to skip sleep or get up early, read boring books that make you want to take a nap. You have to be one of those people. Geeks, nerds... etc.

Ultimately making video games isn't different than anything else you might pursue, it all comes down to how much time you put into it and how effectively you make use of that time.

A list of terminology is not helpful. Hands-on, time in the kitchen is.

 

This thread became quite popular. Heres a statement I made about video games in general.

!*"Games are a combination of menus, gameplay and social features. Everything is driven by a combination of code and rendering. Games are available for purchase and download from company websites. Company websites will also have news, marketing and community. Advertisement is also part of the industry. Games are hosted on servers. Games are developed with a variety of editors."*!

and heres my short explanation of code http://pastebin.com/QxriH7AF

 

Yes, but not because of what you have presented. You definitions are not only very terse, but some of them are incorrect.

A database stores far more than simply strings and is not limited to being online. Firefox, for example, stores local data in SQLite databases.

Arrays and lists are two different data structures. Arrays are limited to being stored in contiguous memory locations, but lists are not limited to that. Arrays are also limited to a specific type being stored but lists can be made to store multiple types (may require writing your own implementation depending on the language framework(s) available).

Once again though, these definitions are not related to game design but game development.

 

One thing people here must remember. Not everyone here is making video games to make tons of money. Some people do it as a hobby and because they want to see if they can do it. Success isn't always about getting published but sometimes is simply about finishing a project.

I don't know what the OP's wants to get out of this but he never mentioned doing this to compete with large companies. We need to try not to project our ideas of success on to other people.

 

I don't think anyone is actually claiming otherwise. The thing is all we've been shown is a list of jargon definitions. A very terse list at that. Only providing a vague definition in the best cases and simply wrong in the worst.

 

Actually, I was referring to this: See below. The fact that the professional game industry is so much cooler and better than us, that doesn't mean that one can't have personal success by completing a game, even if it can't compete with AAA companies.

I actually agree with you, Ryiah. The response to the OP, from almost all of us, has been based on us all jumping to conclusions about a rather spare post. lol

 

That is simply not true. There is absolutely no reason why any of us individually (or together) cannot make a game that not only competes but blows away games produced by the AAA companies. I think everyone gets so hung up on the vast art, sound and music assets they forget those things are the presentation of the game. They are not the game. Sure they may get players' attention, they are good for marketing (screenshots and videos again, getting attention) and yes they can certainly enhance a game experience if used to that end. But they are NOT required for a great game.

I don't intend this as a blast at you Teila. Not at all. I know you are kind of poking fun at the idea of the AAA being so much cooler and better. It's just this "Woo hoo!! AAA, oh my God the graphics are soooooo shiny. OMG!!! I gonna pee my pants!" idea seems so ingrained in many peoples' minds here on the forums it annoys me.

The key to a great game is embodied by this very forum, Game Design. Shiny graphics and orchestral music make for an epic first impression but I have certainly played many games that are junk despite their presentation. And I have played many games that were excellent fun despite having the most primitive presentation. And anybody can make that great game. More than that, "great game" is subjective. There might be 100,000 people who believe Tetris is the greatest game ever created. Nobody has a monopoly on a great game because for nearly every game there are many people who will like it. For my retro style platform game some (maybe most) people here on the forums will not like it. But that is fine because, if that is the case, they are not my target market. People who love playing retro style games are and I believe those people will connect with the game.

Okay, end of rant.

 

I absolutely agree with you and I am glad you understood my intent. I see over and over again how we should all strive to be like AAA games and unless we make huge amounts of money, like large companies, we are not successful at what we do. The above poster seems to be comparing the OP to a large corporation that makes fancy games with a huge staff and lots of time to devote to the chore. Yet, here on the Unity forums, we see many single developer or small teams being "successful" at making games in their spare time, while they are still working at full-time jobs elsewhere or spending time with their families. Gigi is a prime example. We even see some small indie MMO's out there, maybe not big and shiny and drawing 100k players, but they are still enjoyable for the developer and his group of friends. It is still making something of your own, a vision that you created and is still meaningful.

A great game is not always shiny and epic. Sometimes it is just an idea that is different, taking a risk, something we, as indie developers can do. Game development is like art. You may never be as good as Van Gogh or Da Vinci, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't make art. Someone out there will love your stuff. And maybe, someone will pay for your stuff, you never know. The motivation though, should be in the DOING, the process and the finishing, not in the huge amounts of bucks you will get because if that is your motivation, you will probably never make a second painting.

My daughters are on Deviant Art and they post their pictures there. They get lots of nice comments, people who like their stuff. I have never seen any nasty comments there. I have never seen anyone say....Why do this? You can't be as successful as those people who sell paintings in galleries or in the middle of the mall! Why? Instead, they encourage each other.

Why can't we do that here? If that makes me a Care Bear, then so be it. I welcome the label. I have mentored a number of young people in game design, game art, and in writing for games. I have never regretted one minute of it. I would much rather lift people up than tear them down. If one of those young people become much more successful at game making than me then I will feel good.

 

It does make you a Care Bear. Mentoring is great. It's all great. So direct people here, where they won't be hindered by Unity, a suite of development tools that can be used to make professional, marketable games. Unity is difficult to use, it grants you control over a bunch of tools that are used for speeding up development and coordinating projects between multiple developers. It's a customizable editor running on top of a performance tested engine. It's hard to learn. I don't understand why you would want to learn to learn everything that I am learning and not also take this seriously. I'm not hurting someone by pointing them to the correct path that they should take. I'm saving them.

Nobody was there to point me in the right direction, at all. That's how I ended up on the path of least resistance, the easiest route... RPGMaker and GameMaker, where I pushed the programs to their limitations and got frustrated because I realized that they were holding me back from accomplishing all I could.

In GameMaker I *could* have made a game like super meat boy... but the music had a weird glitch that caused the game to pause when the song repeated, it was inexcusable. They never fixed it. There was graphic tearing, etc. I finally realized it was my fault for using a crappy program and not learning to program it myself.

I was going to forget about Unity, but I started working on my brothers' game and I have since realized just how powerful it is. I don't know that I will ever need graphical capabilities beyond what Unity is more than capable of. I find that for once I am the one who is limiting the quality of what I can produce, not vice versa.

For every person you tell "anyone can do it" you are telling someone who could be a professional developer that it's not important to try hard.

 

Hmm, I don't think I ever said, "Anyone could do it". I simply made suggestions on where he could find help and how to go about it.

If you can find a place where I said "Anyone can do it", and left it at that, then please quote my comments and let me know because I should change it.

On the other hand, I don't think Unity is that difficult to learn and I always give the person the benefit of the doubt. I am not here to direct them to tools I have never used, only go give advice on how to use the ones I have. This fellows post was very broad and he never asked what tools he should use. If one wants specific advice, they should ask for it, right? Telling one they can't do something without knowing anything about their skill level, their experience with the tools, etc., is not any better really than saying "anyone can do it".

Oh, and please, don't take the words I use and turn them into something else. I am asking this nicely. If I say something you disagree with, quote me. Show me what I said. Otherwise, we are just talking past each other and will get nowhere. That is one nice thing about forum debates. Unlike a face-to-face chat, we can actually show what the other person said and expound on that.

And...the picture seems like an insult. Could you stop that as well? Just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean I am not "grounded in reality". You really need to learn to fight fair. lol

 

Personally, I love old school arcade style games. There's no reason why you can't put AAA polish and skill into the development or your game. There's no reason why pixel art can't be *perfect*. There's no reason why you can't become a hit with your design, but you have to do it really, really well. You might even have to be better than the developers of those shiny games. If that's what you're trying to do, then your success is going to be determined by how well you do that. To make a game like Legend of Zelda is a lot more challenging than some people think. The graphics are easy, but games are about a lot more than graphics. Or coding. It's that, at a minimum, but then it's so much more than that.

I have seen, more than anything, a lack of game design ability as the leading cause of games to not succeed in gaining widespread appreciation. I have also posted a lot of game demo's and seen the difference between a well-executed project and a poorly executed project, and the response difference is immense if the controls are tight and the game's concept is complete. In other words, the more of a "game" you have the more you start getting responses.

That's only one part of it though. That's being a designer.

Completing a game is the hardest thing you can do, I would guess for every 10,000 game ideas ever come up with, 10-100 become demo projects and maybe 1 is completed. That's being a developer.

Like my dad always said, "If it was easy, everyone would do it."

 

From @hippocoder's profile page:

If your intentions are to stifle discussion and turn this into "he said, she said" you are well on the way to succeeding.

Let me know if I can't speak my mind for fear of hurting someone's feelings so I can delete this account and never come back here again. Wasn't aware that this was that type of community, with all the "f" bombs being dropped I just assumed we were adults.

 

Just relax everyone. Too much pent up something going on!
With anything you do, you know the big picture.. the final thing you want but you need to take it in parts and finish that part and move on. It takes patience, learning, studying, blood, sweat, tears, a lot of drugs... whatever it takes and it will work out. Let it be a 2D side scroller, a 3D shoot'm up or a MMO. each has its parts but together creates the game you want.
Rome wasn't built in a day and neither is your game. Deep breath and start a list and relax, enjoy, chill...
And please.. keep this professional. That is why we have this area! Act like an adult even if you aren't and listen to the people that have more experience then you. Learn from anywhere and anyone you can.

 

440+ posts and so far, it's never gotten personal until this topic. I'm rather disappointed.

 

Are they so much cooler and better? Some of the most enjoyment I've gotten have been from games made by indie developers. Ancient Domains of Mystery is a roguelike that I love and continuously go back to despite the fact that I have grown to dislike ASCII-based games.

With that side-topic out of the way, you appear to have missed the point of his post, which to be fair Misterselmo does ramble a bit. The point though is that in order to be successful you need to have the drive to keep going. I've read some of the OP's other threads and posts and frankly I just don't see it.

Not only does he appear to be unwilling to move beyond tutorials and experiment on his own, but he doesn't even have the tools installed. My impression of him is that he is little more than an "idea guy".

I helped tutor a friend of mine in programming because she showed an interest in C++. It was her first programming language but she still showed more progress within an hour than this guy is showing after one and a half years.

 

I'm not continuing this. This is over. If you follow me into other topics and try to start this being a "thing" I'll just point it out and then ignore it. I'm here to talk about games, not about you.

 

See, I didn't read the OP's other posts because I know OP's type like the back of my hand. Thinks a story is an idea, assumes that he will have success by virtue of his involvement, doesn't need to bother with lesser things like "learning to program" or "reading manuals" because he watched every video Extra Credits ever made. He has a computer and he's smarter than the rest of us, what else is there?

We're lucky he's sharing his wisdom with us.

 

Yep. His other thread, which hippo locked because it was obviously a futile discussion, pretty much shows that.

We don't have to "believe" the OP is new, he has proven it for us. His overview, along with other posts he has made, pretty much show he is a complete beginner. Not that there is anything wrong with being new, but his attitude has pretty much been "I'm right, everyone else is wrong" in all his posts.

 

If I don't say "I told you so" I'll still be thinking it, so... I told you so.

There are certain forms of basement dweller that give off a certain smell... they post on forums like this in between sessions of CoD and Assassin's Creed. I've spent long hours talking to guys like this, getting a sense of how they think... they really don't want to have to work for it. They're content to dream and spout their views because it makes them feel special, but there's no substance to it.

You could had them a game that is 1% from completion and they would never complete the last 1%.