I'd like your opinions on gamepad controls for Diablo-style games

TL;DR: Opinions wanted on gamepad control scheme, particularly movement/turning, for a top-down dungeon crawler.

I'm currently developing a Legend of Zelda-style dungeon crawler with coop mechanics. I have little experience with gamepads and I own no gaming console, but I want to base the control scheme on gamepads so people can sit on the couch together and play without having to use mouse + keyboard. I already have a control scheme that uses the left analog stick or D-pad for moving/turning, the right analog stick is only used for inventory management. So, no dual-stick controls. However, I feel that this is not perfect, as it makes attacking enemies cumbersome; I either have to press a trigger button to stand still and use the stick to turn towards the enemy, and then attack, or use the D-Pad with it's absolute values to face the enemy. The problem with the analog stick is that since it's analog, once the character is turned into a direction, and you let go, the game obviously will register the positions of the stick while it's going back to zero, so the characte rturns in unwanted directions.

I did some researching and one thing that intrigued me was the gamepad controls for Diablo III, which had a "mob focus" button, and which is not dual-stick either.

Long story short, I'd like to have some opinions on what you feel would be a good way to use the gamepad to control a character in such a game while ideally taking advantage of the anaog stick's smooth input.

 

I really liked the gamepad controls for Diablo. They felt comfortable and responsive.
You may also consider looking at games that have a 3rd person perspective for duel stick controls. God of War 3 had some very tight controls, can't remember if it was duel stick or not.

I'm one of those weirdos who prefer the PS3 controller over the Xbox controller. It just fits better and feels more comfortable.

 

Why don't you use dual sticks? Left for movement and right for aiming. Am I missing something? Is there a downside to dual sticks? I know you use the right stick for inventory but surely players wouldn't be managing their inventory and fighting at the same time.

 

Agreed. Throw inventory management onto the dpad or the top triggers. Analog joy sticks are too valuable to squander on inventory.

 

Would you be able to describe exactly how the controls for D3 work? I have look at the gamepad controller scheme, but I would like to know how turning and especially locking on to enemies work.



I implemented dual-stick controls in an earlier build, but didn't like it that much. You only have the four trigger buttons available, which I feel aren't as responsive for rapid action. Also, the split leg-torso body movement required doesn't fit the graphical style (voxelized 8/16-but retro, as in 3D Dot Game Heroes). I appreciate your opinions!

 

I haven't played it in a while, but I'll fire it up this weekend and update here. I just remember being skeptical before playing and after several hours noting - the controls were pretty much perfect - that is to say it all the controls and buttons were instinctive and comfortable.
I'll let you know.

 

Some of us hate that dual-stick control system. So I can understand why you didn't like it much in your earlier build. A lot of people especially teens seem to expect it though. I am fine with if I turn to left I can shoot left. And so forth.

 

What I want from this kind of thing is aim helpers (which you can turn off) because the problem with a controller for a game that is made on PC (which for this kind of game, sounds like you'd want to be on both console and PC) is that the mouse offers such a higher degree of accuracy... So if I am using a controller I want some smart aim assist. To me that practically trumps any possible control scheme.

I'm also oldschool and prefer single stick + Buttons for attacks. ARPGs like Diablo usually, really, only have 1-3 attacks you ever use and a handful of other buttons you occasionally press (Potions, rarely used abilities, etc)... so that's kinda a vote for Dualstick I guess?

That said, why not just have several preconfigured options and let the user have full editing power over the controls?

 

There aren't any reviews from press which didn't praise Diablo's console controls. Make of that as you will.

 

Diablo 3, though, does NOT have dual stick controls One of the game's main features is the couch-coop mode, so I am designing the controls with gamepads in mind primarily. The dungeon crawler Hammerwatch on PC has a decent control scheme, with one stick for movement, and the character turns into the movement direction, but if the left shoulder button is pressed, the character strafes (no turning), and if the right one is pressed, the character stands in place and the stick only turns.

Controls rill be editable, but not to a degree where there is an option between single and dual stick control... That is too much of a gameplay change as it requires a completely different set of movement and attack animations.

Yeah, I thought that as well... I'd really like to know how they work, especially since the PC version has the normal point-and-click scheme.

 

Well google seems filled with fun images.

 

Thanks, but as I wrote earlier

,
I've already seen these schematics

 

I'm also interested in one day doing a dual stick ARPG. Put a good deal into the GDD for it and made some tests. Here's what I determined worked for me:

Left Stick - Movement
Right Stick - Look
If Right Stick is centered, then Left Stick - Look

Make sure to have a healthy dead zone too. That will stop the character looking in random directions when you let go of the stick. By healthy, I mean like 25% of the movement. Seriously. And make sure to not use raw input or it will ignore the dead zone.

Then I would assign the buttons as skills like in D3. That way some skills that use strafe could be placed on the shoulders at the player's discretion.

Now as far as the auto targeting that D3 does, it is fantastic, this is true. I love D3. BUT, keep in mind that that was a way to bridge between k&m to game pad. But ideally, if you're intending to make it a game pad game then make it for the game pad from the ground up and not worry about targeting.

That's what I'd/I'm doing.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I will play around with a bigger deadzone, I alredy implemented a radial one but it's fairly small.

You mention the auto-targeting of D3, how exactly does it work?

Also, I wonder if it's possible to have both the Left stick and the D-Pad available for input; seems like many games utilize both, Diable 3 and Skyrim, for example. Useful for quickly selection potions or something like that.

 

Bumpity-bump

 

Your controls must like other games, not different. Bcause players wants standart controls not different.

 

Yeah... I would agree partially.

I am still looking for a detailed description of the Diablo 3 controls btw

 

Sorry not to get you this info Cherno. Been busy as we all are.
I set a reminder on my phone to test it out this evening. I'll get back to you after that.

 

Hey - Happy Daddy day!
Finally fired up Diablo again. Sorry for the delay.
So here are my impressions.
As you know only one analog stick movement control. The character faces the direction the stick is pushed. Im no techie so I wont guess at how things are implimented - but the character doesnt snap into a default direction if you let go of the stick - they stay facing in the direction they are facing.
Of course the stick directs the attacks as well. And if you want to change direction its smooth and easy - just move the stick in a different direction.
Lock on - at first isnt really needed/used.
The attacks in Diablo at first really are kind of area swiping attacks so you will hit the enemies in the general direction and area of your swipe.
For missle attacks if wanting to lock onto a specific enemy - hold the lock on button. This can be done while moving and selecting the desired attack button. And the character stays facing in the general direction the enemy is. I cant tell if the direction is 8 ways or more.
A lot of the special attacks/actions are directional based on the direction you flick the stick and if direction isnt selected it will default to the direction the character is currently facing.
Thats about all I can give on the control scheme for Diablo. I do agree duel analog controls are overkill for a lot of games and are only needed if you allow the character to face/aim a different direction he is moving.

If I were you Id strongly suggest using the exact same control scheme as Diablo and utilize the right stick the same way they did.

Hope this gives you some clairification.

 

Thanks for the detailed explaination. It sounds like a good way of doing things, especially for this type of game. I will probably copy at least the basic principles.
One question about the lock on button: I assume that y keep it pressed and the enemy that is forward of the character in a straight line gets target lock, and if the lock on button is released, the last enemy that had lock on stay locked on?

 

I'm fairly certain that D3 (which I play non-stop on my PS4) was reversed engineered as a shell around the PC controls.

So everything that the PC had for controls are still there, but now it uses rays and distances to jump the (now invisible) curser around and the rays are aimed with the thumb stick.

 

The play feels exactly how Not_Sure described it.

 

I read somewhere that the console version were styled a tiny bit more towards hack 'n' slash action, with the camera being zoomed in more, while the PC version has a wider field of view to take advantage of the mouse's accuracy when targeting ranged spells.

 

EDIT: Removed my Post, Just realized this was a gamepad question, not Touch-dual-stick question -.-

 

I prefer the D3Gamepad.exe controls for pc over the console controls. If you held down one of the triggers (configurable), it gave you a free mouse which you moved with the stick and could then use the other trigger, bumper and face buttons for the 6 skills. This also made inventory management interesting.

I like it in part because a lone nameless individual produced a better, more precise interface than blizzard could. But I was also annoyed having no control over my spells on console and certain abilities just auto-targeting things.

 

Yeah, but free mouse via gamepad is pretty hard for casuals. Blizzard is a big company, those always strive for ultimate-one-size-fits-all solutions with little or no configuration space for the "elaborate" players. Like GW2 did when they fixed the vertical FOV (@16:9) to like 65° (which is fine if you sit on a couch in front of a TV but sucks for PC). Took them 3 years to include a FOV-Slider.

But another thing that bugs me is why current-Gen consoles have those dual-stick games that need both of your thumbs on the sticks while mapping lots of combat stuff on the face-buttons (which need your busy thumbs) and less on the shoulder-buttons (which can be accessed with your free fingers).
-The solution seems like a no-brainer, but still no console has introduced back-buttons.
This is what i have in mind:
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-will-add-2-buttons-to-YOUR-XBox-One-wireless-controller-/251495263225)

But to answer the Question of the OP about a controlling scheme, I would do the following:

LeftStick: Movement
RightStick: Look direction (for targeting)
Shoulderbuttons(R1/2,L1/2): Frequent actions like attacking, dodge and skill usage
Face buttons: occasional stuff like drinking potions, changing weapons

Additionally, if you really need ground targeting: You should make the free-mouse-cursor appear in front of the current look direction on shoulder-button-down. As long as the button is down you move the cursor with your Right stick. The skill is fired on release of the button.
-But i would do ground targeting skills always in a fixed forward distance from the player's look direction, like Merlin does his fireball-mortar in the new "Gauntlet" (which has awsome-gameplay and input-schemes for mouse-keyboard AND controller)

 

That would make it a dual-stick control scheme, though.

Anyway, in D3, are there any archer-type characters or builds, that use a ranged weapon that have no AoE?

 

I have no idea, i quit Diablo after they didn't deliver pvp.

Hmm, i think i misread your initial post, sorry,
maybe you could describe the mechanics of your game, so we can come up with an ideal input scheme. Just copying diablo's may not suit it:

You said Zeldastyle but anyway:

• Allowed input elements? (Left Stick, not right stick, d-pad, shoulderbuttons...)
• Characters or vehicles?
• Movement allowed while using actions? Or are you rooted (In diablo you are rooted during any action, i always hated that, Nox (Westwood 2000) was awsome and hard mainly because they didn't do that)
• Type of actions
  • dodge-jumps
  • jumps
  • melee attacks
  • aoe with avatar as center
  • ranged attacks
    • invisible on target
    • line in space
    • aoe on point
    • homing
• Are above actions
  • instant (keydown)
  • channeled (keyHeld)
  • charged (keyUp)
• Lock on needed (Yes, No, Not sure)

 

Is your game singleplayer or multiplayer? If it's exclusively multiplayer you can do something like .hack// games did and have 1 button bring up a menu that contains all of your attacks in it. Opening that menu 'pauses' the world.