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Discussion I still feel like I can't make a game lol [rant]

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by faulknordonald, Aug 27, 2023.

  1. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    True. The "logic" behind how sending and requesting data between a database is essentially the same. But, the method in which you perform that logic is not. For example, php and C# are different. Even if you use PHP, from what I understand, you still need to use C# in order to connect that PHP script to Unity. So, although the logic is the same, it's not entirely identical and it's absurd to think, just because you know one method of doing it, you automatically know all methods of doing it (as some people here seem to think).
     
  2. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    well there are considerable number of beginner tutorials that show how. To your point, unity is not aware its PHP, it just makes a web call, sends stuff, gets something back, and then uses it. so it can be just as easily written in perl, asp, whatever.
     
  3. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    Thanks. I've been working with PreFab and having a slight issue with it. It's strange how you can have the same exact code as someone else and it behaves differently for each person. Code should be definitive, not mysterious. What works for one person should work for everyone.
     
  4. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    the same code won't behave differently per person, it's somewhere else in the environment. Figuring out where is where troubleshooting comes in.
     
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  5. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    "Code should be definitive, not mysterious. "

    Logic is mysterious because we are illogical beings. Those who claim to be logical have arrived at that conclusion by dozens if not hundreds of logical fallacies. For instance, there is no logical reason to argue with me about this point...

    I remember, first few weeks of becoming a gamedev, I read an article by a coder, who dipped his toe into gamedev. He said many around him called it, "the dark art".

    But he wanted to explore, "the dark art", and he did, for almost a year, before giving up on it.
     
  6. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Logic is not a state of being, it's a tool people use to figure out answers.

    And a logical reason to argue with an abnormally stupid post is so that it doesn't harm children.
     
  7. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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  8. Lazy-Dreamer

    Lazy-Dreamer

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    I feel some of your games are already complete, much better than what I've been working on so far. You probably just don't feel they are because you played them too much. I can name a few triple A games that became repetitive really fast.
     
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  9. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    its also hard not to feel finished when you see something grow from empty project, you know all its flaws.
     
  10. marteko

    marteko

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    Especially when you know the players will see these flaws too. :)

    Well, then your task is easy - follow these game patterns and start prototyping your game (there are tutorials for this in Unity learn, you probably already passed the courses and should know what to do), don't procrastinate with code things that will be needed at late stages of the game - you will have enough time to find out how to do it. The biggest challenge will be the visuals, indeed, especially if you aim for good quality and above. Art is a vast field, focus only on what you will use for your game, otherwise you will waste a lot of time, and your goals may change before the game is ready, which (maybe), could be for the better, who knows? :)
     
  11. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    No, you don't know that at all. I've regularly put significant amounts of time into something that I thought was a big deal only to have my players / client / testers completely miss, ignore, or not care about that entire part of the thing. I've also had cases (edit: thankfully no longer regular ones!) where I've put that time in and then found out I was working on a flawed premise, and was "fixing" something that needed to be fundamentally changed anyway. Rookie mistake!

    And the way to avoid that rookie mistake is to put unfinished stuff in front of people early and often, starting from well before you think it's "done".
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2023
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  12. marteko

    marteko

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    Yeah, you are right, sometimes we overestimate the value of our fancy ideas. But sometimes we know the flaws and can't do anything about it because we can't deal with them due to lack of sufficient mental or practical skills.
     
  13. kirkmusngi

    kirkmusngi

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    Hi, @faulknordonald ! I’m Kirk, the Senior Community Manager for Unity Learn!

    First off - thank you for taking the time to post about your experiences. Our team ran across this post and it sparked a really fruitful + honest discussion! Especially about the journey of making games, how we teach and support people like you to do just that, and what we can/will be doing to improve that experience.

    Some thoughts + a question for you and others in this thread…



    In your original post, you said nothing you create “feels…like a game”. Some of my team members and I saw you posted your itch.io in one of the replies and I have to say - you definitely know how to make games! Personally, I want to give you kudos for the juicy double jump in Astro Explorer IV and the soundtrack to Puzzle Adventure. :)

    What you said…is a very valid feeling to have when you’re going through your game development journey. It’s not an accident that you feel like you “can create different pieces of a game”. The content on Unity Learn is designed to give you the tools and small vertical slices that go into making a game.

    But when you say it doesn’t “feel…like a game”. That’s because what you do with those tools and how you (or any individual/team) incorporates all those small parts IS what makes “a game”. The heart of the matter is…there really is no one right way to make a game. And you’ll hear that a lot as you go through your journey. BUT - you’ll certainly know some of the moving parts that make a good one if you go through the content we offer on Unity Learn!

    And another truth - web development, in some sense, is a bit more discrete when it comes to what you need to learn versus game development. A full-stack of tools can create a website but there’s so much more to a game that you can’t encapsulate in five tools!



    On the subject of the “right way to make a game”/making something that “feels like a game”. A course you can take on Unity Learn that can help inform you on how to make something that “feels like a game” is the Unity x USC Games course - Design and Publish Your Original Game: Unity USC Games Unlocked (https://learn.unity.com/course/design-and-publish-your-original-game-unity-usc-games-unlocked).

    If the tutorials on Unity Learn are the puzzle pieces you pull off the shelf, this course will help you answer questions about how to approach a full game idea - what it means to make something that’s “finished” and “feels like a game”. Because, also, that’s vastly different depending on the persons/teams making games. What “feels like a game” for you/what feels “finished” will be different for an indie game developer, different for a AAA developer, and different for an artist, a hobbyist, etc. etc…



    So a question for you, @faulknordonald and anyone who wants to chime in - what can we (The Learn Team) do or incorporate that will help support this part of your journey? What courses are you all interested in (I think @faulknordonald mentioned instructions on how to deploy to different systems, for instance) that are “gaps” in your knowledge?



    And as a brief aside - we do have plans for releasing and supporting more content that relates the game development process! As there are Pathways for the Unity Essentials and programming at a Junior level, we are also in the process of designing a Learn Pathway for Game Development.

    As a community manager, I think more opportunities + spaces to talk, encourage, share, and inspire yourself and others are at the top of my mind (i.e. Discord servers to talk game dev/share ideas, playtest and game jam events, etc.).

    Again, thanks for sharing, @faulknordonald ! We hope to hear from you again + others, especially if you have any feedback/suggestions for how we can do better!
     
  14. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    That's the best unity intervention in a long while, congrats lol

    Now for my designer tidbits:

    If you don't know what to do with a game: PLAYTEST

    If you aren't a designer, playtest, look at player reactions, takes notes and takes note of their wants and wishes, and iterate on multiple seances of playtests and implementations.

    If you aren't a creative mind, you could take pride in serving players, or at least a group of players you like, ie that probably have the same tastes as you. Some player have some design flairs, and THEY WILL let you know what's wrong with your game in exquisite details. You still has to made the final call and decisions.

    PLAYTEST beat any design theory, creative or designer's ego to the ground. That's a powerful tools.

    That's the name of the art:

    PLAYTEST!
     
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  15. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    Thank you for this reply and informing me of that course I can take. I will definitely do that.

    In response to what you can incorporate, I think a fully featured game creation course would be good. For example, I've done pretty much all of the creator kits, but, they don't start those from scratch. Again, those just teaches pieces of a game. When I started to learn web development, some of the courses I took were "create a website from scratch", where we'd start with a blank slate and create a fully functional website. I understand it may be a lot of work for the creators of Unity Learn, but might be worth it.

    I would pick some of the more popular games to mimic, such as create a match 3 game, create an MMORPG, etc. Of course, they don't need "every" feature you'd normally find in these games, but they should be from scratch, whereas ALL scripts are written during the tutorial. The only assets provided, might be some art/sprites.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2023
  16. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    Unfortunately, I don't have the thousands of dollars needed to get play testers. I don't have a large following on social media. If I posted asking for people to test my game, I would literally NEVER get even one person to do it. I would literally have to PAY people A LOT of money to test out my game as well as advertising so people would actually see that I'm looking for play testers.

    This might bring up another question, if I don't have the ability to get play testers, how will I get people to play the game after it's fully ready? Well, haven't figured that out yet. lol
     
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  17. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Even a larger studios, for some playtest sessions, we would pay them in $20 Amazon gift cards. True, that is not full game testing, it was largely to just to get play/experience feedback. Playtests are very valuable, even at that level.
     
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  18. stain2319

    stain2319

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    "it takes money to make money" has always been true.
     
  19. devotid

    devotid

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    Heres my worthless $0.02

    - Education means nothing if you cant implement it. Start by implementing first and then work on sharpening that skill with education later. 50% of what you just learned you will never use. It was a waste of time that could have been spend making mistakes and correcting them on things that you are actually using. This leads to a better learning experience if you ask me. Fail. Adjust. Repeat. We are not painting cars here and small mistakes can be made often. Make them early and not when you have 200,000 customers to get pissed.

    - Only release your best 10% and redo/trash the other 90% of junk. You know its junk... treated it as such because players will too.

    Good luck!
     
  20. Cienta

    Cienta

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    Wow, and thought was only one! Though my story bit different and so is my education, not going to get into it much, but understand where you at. The advice you getting is great, Learn C#, start digging into and learn the networking part of things, like Azure and Firebase, these are just more pieces of our puzzle to be put together. More to game development than just Unity.
     
  21. Not_Sure

    Not_Sure

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    You need to have a game loop.

    That is, a start scene that has a menu. A start button. Load a new game. Have a fail state. And kick the player back to a menu.

    Just do a crappy infinite runner and do just that.

    Everything else is built on that.
     
  22. CenobiteShadoweaver

    CenobiteShadoweaver

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    Thing is there are not many full game templates that have helpful tool tips for those new and experienced users to easily add or create there own designs in, The editor provides all the tools for creation but still takes many of us to create a whole product like ants build a nest for a queen to lay eggs to keep the population going.

    I once thought game production would be easy but after using a few editors the last couple years i realise how much time and knowledge is required for the task, i don't think i could finish a whole game strictly by myself, and i don't think anyone could develop completely from scratch creating all assets & coding it all to work in any sort of reasonable time, not without some really advanced A.I help and many machines. No one human can create something good alone otherwise we wouldn't breed but rather replicate or clone from this one body.
     
  23. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    Also many of the "make a game" tutorials also skip areas too, the only games that might get a full tutorial are things like tic tac toe, its always something real simple, its never got everything, its always along the lines of "hey make a diablo 4 look a like" and all they actually cover is movement and maybe a bit of damage, no xp, no levels, no inventory, no add on skills, so basically most of the game concept is missing.. it also then never covers how maybe to market it.
     
  24. CenobiteShadoweaver

    CenobiteShadoweaver

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    Thats right, they are bare bones in most cases you'll find that you'll end up writing all the widgets again to connect all the dots so to speak because you need to change it all to add more functions & content.
    So i now just look for good controllers that have a range of functions that i can add quicker then recreating a cheesy template.
    Controllers are not perfect either but for Unity it's about the best option you have to speed development process up. I'll use addon's like Umotion to adapt any animations on the fly to what ever controller system i'm working with.

    So in one setup i am trying to use Invector with the MIS addon's with a SCFI Star-Ship controller which all combines with Eddys Vehicle Physics in an open world environment setup, getting this to work in third person so from third or first person view points the character animates to enter or exit vehicles or use other props like doors or windows with specific animation sets.

    As a mod creator I just sort of take the same approach to developing my games as I have no real industry experience, i put things together as i go, i generally know what i'd like in games but how you create it can be difficult & demanding.
     
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  25. Gekigengar

    Gekigengar

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    Project Architecture for Scalability.
    Practical examples for segmentation on downloadable contents, assembly definitions, etc.
     
  26. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    FYI this RPG Cameras & Controllers | Camera | Unity Asset Store is really nice, i use this a lot

    I dont mind that not all tutorials cover everything but it does get tiring for the "complete" and its so not... one of the early ones i had hopes for was a gamedev one of complete rpg - what did it really cover, um, 2 secenes, movement, picking up an object but not an inventory in any shape or form, and the most minimal combat. hows that a complete rpg?

    there was no character choice, no character customisation, no skills, no quests, no inventory, no stats.. they then made a new course which sort of added to it but didnt, and then went to restart it, and well that was better, but, it didnt finish..

    i want to point out they arent alone, they were just one of the first ones i ran into.

    if I hadnt have a voice for mime (and a face for radio) Id make one, cos there really is a market for a complete, a proper complete, start, layout what you want to make, build all of it, and how to then build and send it to stream, or website .. Im not saying i have the answers either but at least if there was something to follow that people could then add bits from other things to it to make their own
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2023
  27. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    I did actually find a pretty complete game tutorial for a Candy Crush-like game:


    I'm almost completely through the tutorial series and the game is coming along quite well, except figuring out aspect ratio. There should be more series like this and maybe there is. After I'm done with this one, I will look for others.

    I feel like I've actually learned a lot. I'm starting to write my code ahead of the guy doing these tutorials as I know where he's going with it. I'll just be sitting there waiting for him to write his code exactly like I did. lol

    But, these are the tutorials I hope to find more of rather than "make a diablo 4 look alike" with a bunch of missing features/lessons. Now that I'm almost through this tutorial series, I feel like I have the knowledge to remake this game, without using the series, because I actually learned how to do it, the logic behind it, and everything else.
     
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  28. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    Also, I unfortunately will probably never find "help" unless I pay someone, which I am unable to do. So, certain things might have to be gathered (whether free or paid), such as assets. I'm not an artist and can't make my own assets, so I utilize the asset store to my advantage. If I want to make a game... it must be done by myself. My hope is to create a "semi-successful" game and THEN maybe I can hire someone to help.
     
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  29. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    thats good, but tbh candy crush is kinda a simpleish game, but its good hes covered a lot of it, and that at the end you feel you could write one not just copy his..

    but there is definately a market for more whole game tutorials, while short individual bits of also have a place, until people are confident of start to finish, it really helps to have that level of tutorial, otherwise many of the tutorials dont explain they just do "type this" .. not really discuss why or other choices.. they might as well just zip up the code and say for $x you can download my zip
     
  30. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    I posted a link above for a complete tutorial series I actually found. It contains 65 different videos and like 52 parts. I'm almost all the way through it. It's a Match 3 game. One of the many interested genres I would like to develop.
     
  31. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    i have the same problem, all the arty types say no no you can do it.. believe me, there are some of us who really really cant.
     
  32. Lifee00

    Lifee00

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    Eh I mean what is your goal,
    To make a good game, you need a good idea. That means story, mechanics, systems, audio, everything. If you don't plan it well, it probably won't turn out well. Experience in having played such games is also important. Look what made other games great and copy from them, but make it better. And don't dive deep into project you are likely to never finish, like a beginner doing an MMO.

    Know your strengths: I am good at RPGs, but would definitely suck at making Fortnite, football or something I never really liked or played before much. I've played so many RPGs and MMOS that not many nowadays will keep my interest, so if I make an RPG and I LIKE IT, it means other people will probably like it too. I am technically the best tester for this genre.
     
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  33. astracat111

    astracat111

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    Saving and loading data is the first thing I look at with anything, file access is as important as drainage is to setting up land.
     
  34. CenobiteShadoweaver

    CenobiteShadoweaver

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    It's difficult to plan for something when you just don't know if things will work or not.

    There are many grand ideas when it comes to development it all depends on the scope of the project you intend to write, there is so much knowledge across a broad range of specialist skills like Audio management which i only know some of due to modding games in the past but working completely within the framework of the project is much different, then there's advanced coding required for A.I and User Graphics Interfaces that all work to an inventory system if your building that into your game, i find Third person / First person games the most demanding in content and code so if you want to build a good one you'll need help from all artists across a range of platforms, little programs or scripts that help make you're job easier so you can create the entire program.

    You could develop endlessly so you must set some goals for your project just and have some kind of finish line in mind and know that you may have to let go of adding some features due to time and expense so if you're crowd funding don't promise the world to players in some over hyped game that will never be.

    For a low end college course you can do something like Website Design this may help you learn a bit about html, CSS & Python, it also teaches how to build Data Bases which is really needed for RPG type games you intend to have some kind of system to like rolling dice for random outcomes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2023
  35. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Perhaps something to clearly define game design specifically as compared to game development as a whole?

    Early on in the journey a newbie is struggling to make things function. Until they get past that, "what to make" and "how to make it" are effectively one and the same. However, eventually they get to the point where they can see multiple things they could build and multiple approaches to building each. At that point it becomes really useful to think not just about "how do I implement this thing" but also "what is the best thing to implement" and then, later on "what set of things that I can make would have the most interesting interactions"?

    I think that's when you'll start organically making things which "feel... like a game".

    As for what Unity's Learn Team can do to help people get there... well, for one, I think it'd be super useful to make a clear distinction early on between implementation and design. One look in the Game Design sub-forum makes it abundantly clear that the difference is not generally understood. (I haven't looked, maybe there already is something?)

    A few videos or articles to introduce game design considerations at different stages of a game's life cycle could be good, as well. Developing concepts at the start. Coming up with actions / verbs / functionality / the broad experience. A look at designing a level / area / quest. Different types and approaches to story in games. Balancing. Playtesting, and how it is different throughout a game's life cycle. Things like that.

    Obviously each one of those could be a book unto itself, and the Learn section doesn't really have the scope for that. Still, even just intros to each of those concepts might achieve two things when something doesn't "feel... like a game":
    1) Identify why that's the case, and thus start defining the problem to solve.
    2) Clue them into what further research or learning will help them find solution(s).
     
  36. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Those two things are very closely related, yes!

    The big one: playtesters don't necessarily cost money. For my current project I've got a bunch of people asking if they can playtest it, none of whom are being offered anything other than fun and potentially some pizza in return. One of the first things a game absolutely has to be able to do is get peoples' attention. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it can't get people's attention they won't try it - either while you're working on it or after it's done. So start practicing that.

    How can you describe your game to people super quickly in a way that makes them want to check it out? It's a skill, practice it.

    I'd start by writing summaries of your games which are each just a few words long, and practicing getting peoples' attention with them. Do it in person, on social media, your itch.io page, everywhere you can try stuff out and evaluate reactions. Getting attention with words alone is important because words are the one thing you always have available, they can be made at any stage of a game's life cycle, and are super cheap to change and experiment with.
     
  37. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    So there you are Billy Nomates, sitting in your room writing some game.. things like finding play testers who will be sympathetic that this is either your first or one of your early game outputs so, (so dont expect AAA finished product) but who will give good and useful feedback how is Billy going to find them?is there redit.com/r/sympatheticPlayTestersRus?

    Once you have a bit of a fan base, sure you can ask them or they will almost certainly volunteer, but when starting out its hard to know where to find things - after all if i said to you, you're going to start producing hand woven items - name all the items you need, and where you're getting them. You probably dont know, its not your bag.

    I think especially when new, its hard to say what you dont know because you dont know yet. Me, i have the power of logic, so coding? i will succeed. marketing? graphics? decent animations? music (I am arguably capable to make my own i just dont have the equipment nor the want to buy all the equipment), shaders, sure the asset store has much i can buy out of my own pocket (given i dont charge for anything i do), but, do i really want my game to look like an asset flip? Once Im happy with it, once, I have play tested it and am sure its showable to the world...Im personally less sure what to do next.. im not sure i want to stick it on steam, that seems a bit bold.
     
  38. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Well, if possible, I'd say get out of your room. I got the ball rolling for that project by taking it to local dev meetups. I'd get my laptop out at the pub and heartily encourage anyone who looked my way to have a go. Alas, that relies on having a local dev meetup to attend, not an option for everyone.

    I'd also take it to industry events, trade shows, etc. whenever they came up.

    Probably. There are quite a few active game dev groups on Reddit and in other places. And itch.io itself has a steady traffic of people looking to try stuff out, as far as I know?

    In those cases and similar, practice that skill of grabbing attention with a few words. Your game is competing with everything else they scroll past. What can you do to make your stand out to the people who might be interested in playing it?



    When it comes to selecting playtesters, I personally wouldn't focus too much on "sympathetic". Two reasons:
    1) I want people who are honest rather than nice. If something sucks I just want to know, if someone isn't my audience then that's fine, if something needs work then I don't want it sugar coated. But more importantly...

    2) Most of the feedback you get is less from their words and more from their actions. A big one is how long they spend playing - if they can't wait to get off then that's a sign, as it is if you can't remove them once they start. Between those points, just watching reactions is super useful - where do they smile / laugh / groan / wince / whoop / hold their breath / etc.?
     
  39. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    The difference between you and me is, you've got people. I have NO ONE. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON would be willing to playtest a game for me. I've asked friends and family. They all ignore my requests. I've posted on social media. Not one interested person. The only other option is to pay a marketing firm $1,500 for basic marketing, in which, I "might" get lucky enough to get free playtesters. On my itch.io games, I've gotten "a few" views. Not sure if the people who viewed them are public and they'd probably not be willing to provide feedback even if I could find them.
     
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  40. CenobiteShadoweaver

    CenobiteShadoweaver

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    I don't know you could advertise for play testers on different sites like you would sell the game or sell you're project and get feedback from users, i just bought a multiplayer template to test out, even if i don't use it as a game it's still useful for me to test new props and characters in a fully functioning world. This creator will get feedback from my purchase.

    I'm nowhere near the need for play testers right now, I'd be just happy with something that works with some of the content that I have purchased with maybe a few of my own creations, this is way too much work for one person, not without so called power levelling as players would put it and using a well-made template that you won't have to recreate the WHEEL just to get anywhere.

    I don't see a point in double & triple handling when most of this has been done by many developers over & over, why must every new developer start from total scratch having to create basic functions you would expect as standard in games of today.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2023
  41. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Then who you think is going to buy / play your game, if you have 0 followers. Failing at marketing.
     
  42. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    everyone has to start somewhere.
     
    angrypenguin likes this.
  43. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Then start marketing.
    Create discord, create social media, create website. Start gather followers.
    If you do that at release date, then you are failing at marketing.
     
  44. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Right, and even if you do have friends / family who will check out your stuff, everyone has to get past that small circle.

    I already mentioned one exercise: come up with short descriptions of your game to get peoples' attention. Looking at itch.io, each game has two short lines of text underneath its title. You have that many words to get my attention, and games do get plays and attention on itch, demonstrating that it can be done.

    There are two other tools you've got on that page, both of which the OP can also start practicing with.

    There's the picture, which will be just as important as the words. What can you put there which people are likely to click on? It'll have to achieve the following:
    - Look attractive. That doesn't have to mean that it's artistically amazing.
    - Communicate two or three key things about your game.

    Go the popular list on itch and identify 5 games you want to click on. Then go to the "latest games" section, i.e. the unfiltered list of the most recent uploads, and pick 5 that you really don't want to click on. Compare these sets of images to each other to get a list of good characteristics (reasons you want to click) and bad things (that make you not want to click), and then use those to guide making your own image.

    Then, there's the title itself. These can be pretty important! An example I love is Thomas Was Alone, the title of an award winning game about... a rectangle that jumps. Its a great example of getting a huge amount of mileage out of things which are individually quite simple. The developer was building an emotional connection between players and that rectangle right from those three words.

    That all said, note that "simple" is not the same as "easy". These things absolutely take effort and dedicated study and practice, just as the rest of game development does.
     
    Antypodish and Ryiah like this.
  45. CenobiteShadoweaver

    CenobiteShadoweaver

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    Another good place to sell games is gaming conventions for many types of games, things like GamesWorks shop and the many types of spin offs of these stores where gaming types all hang out, like comic book stores another good place to attract customers and advertise to younger types, word spreads fast when a group of kids finds something cool they want.
    I remember as a kid we had town halls rented out for mass table top gaming & RPG pen & paper games, this is where people used to get new players for those games, i used to run live RPG games for upto 15 people at times, so there are people interested you just need to look around get the right attention for you're game.

    There are also local markets when I was younger one of my first jobs was fixing game peripherals for different console systems, I used to fix things like joypad's, joysticks & screen guns one used to plugin too the console, my boss Tony at the time used to have a few shopfronts and local market stores in different market zones across the metropolitan area. So from memory he ran one of those console gaming business that were big back in the 90's before the internet , he used to sell his own games in both his brick & mortar stores and market spaces Aswell as stock all the usual stuff people expected...

    I remember Tony a funny Greek guy I think his still in business today last I heard was buying new Windmills for power generation so his on too bigger things these days.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2023
  46. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    For play-testing this is a pretty tough crowd, but they'll give you lots of ideas.

    I've worked with people who make physical games in game jams before and they tend to be very good at "rule-ifying" abstract narrative ideas. Board game rules often translate freely to video games, and not necessarily even turn-based, board-gamey video games either.
     
  47. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    That's the obstacle I have to work through and why I may need to playtest a beta version. The difference between playtesting an alpha version and beta version is that I may be able to come up with a small investment to advertise a launched game ready to play, whereas, I could possibly make some of that money back with advertising and in-app purchases. But, I can't financially afford to playtest before a complete launch. Generally, playtesters don't spend money on in-app purchases through an app that isn't launched to the public. Also, I believe it's against policy to have non-testing ads on a playtest. So, in a financial standpoint, if I pay for playtesters before launch, I risk becoming homeless with my kids. If I advertise a launched game with the opportunity of making some/all of my money back, I'm risking less. I can come up with "a little" money to advertise my game, but not to playtest. The risk is too high.
     
  48. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    Yea. I've actually failed a lot in my life. And it all comes down to money. Since I can't get people to help me for free (such as my friends sharing a post to their friends, etc.), I MUST have some sort of investment to grow.

    I've been web developing for 15+ years, putting in over 72,000 hours of education, training, and actual work experience. I've built a fully functional social networking website better than Facebook by myself. I'm still not successful. Why? Money!

    If I had the money to pay a marketing agency... I'd actually get users.
    If I had the money for resources (servers, etc.)... I could actually grow that user base.
    etc.

    I've learned, to be successful in technology, you NEED money one way or another.

    So, to go back to "everyone has to start somewhere". I agree, and without the initial investment, it's a VERY, VERY slow process. I'd be lucky to acquire 10 users my first 6 months of launch, and another 10 per month after that. Without an investment, I estimate that it would take me 5 years to reach 250 users, and by the time, half of them or more had already stopped playing.
     
  49. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    @faulknordonald so what stops you from starting gathering followers and fans of the project on social media? Do you have any social media posts?
    Some followers for sure would love to test for you.
    That what are social media for.
    Start discord and other channels and make things work for you.
    Otherwise sorry, but it looks like looking for poor excuses.
    Time to get out of your own space bubble.
     
  50. faulknordonald

    faulknordonald

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    I "understand" marketing. I even took a complete marketing course offered by Google themselves and I still can't succeed at gaining followers. It took me 3 years to get 20 followers on Twitter. I now have a verified Twitter account. I remember getting 98,000 views in just 4 hours and an engagement rate of 3.5%. That account still only has 43 followers.