How true is this info graphic?

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--B9sa1AW8--/yunrl7fmeiespkovaghp.jpg

I noticed that it doesn't have years of experience to achieve that salary for each language nor what year are these figure based on.

I am thinking in learning a programming language to make games and I came across this on my research.

Please advise.

 

Don't learn "a programming language". Learn programming as a whole. Pick one language to start with, but recognise and accept that it's a starting point and that no one language is ultimate. After your first language the second will be easier to learn, and after thee or four there's really no sweat jumping from one to another. Available libraries and the environments you'll be writing code in and for will end up taking far more of your time in the long term than the language bit.

Since you're hanging out on the Unity forums, I'd suggest C# as a good starting point. There are plenty of resources, it's in extensive commercial and professional use outside of Unity, and being derived from C a huge amount of what you learn is very likely to be directly transferable to whatever language you learn next.

I learned my first language by finding one of those "Teach Yourself..." books and working through it cover to cover. Internet tutorials are cheaper, but not necessarily as good, and I'd suggest that getting a better start is more valuable than the money you might be saving.

 

http://www.robmiles.com/c-yellow-book/

EDIT: Sorry - I keep posting things without context lately. It's a bad habit. Always in too much of a rush In my opinion this is the best book to learn programming if you're just starting out now (i.e. in the year 2014).

 

How much experience do I need to have with C# before I can get employed earning the average salary?

 

So I need to put 5 years before I can do what I want? Isn't there a C# dev boot camp I can to?

 

Lies, damned lies, and infographics.

Back to topic:

That will depend on what it is that you want to do. If you want to earn that kind of salary then yes, you'll need to have a few years under your belt.

 

It depends a lot on you. How smart you are. There are people that pick up Java or C# in 2-3 months, and then there are those that never really get it.
For stuff like C++ it takes longer, because it is much more powerful so there is much more to learn.

But as others said, the first language does not really matter, before you can handle 3-4 languages you are not really a programmer in my eyes.
Edit: because you must be able to pick the tools that fit the job, so you need to know multiple tools.

 

If you learn C, Java, PHP and Python you'll be a well rounded programmer. You'll have an old, low level language, a high level objected oriented and super strict language, a flexible scripting language for web and an interpreted scripting language for desktop.

 

Its not that much about learning a programming language as learning programming overall. When your have a good grasp of programming then you can focus on a language.

I dont know if this is true all over the world. But the salary in the game industry is not as high as what you can get elsewhere. Atleast not where i am from.

 

Get a degree from university in computer science if you want a good salary. Leave the details to the university.

If your school teaches computer programming, mathematics beyond basic algebra, and so on take them. Outside of school I wouldn't do programming but rather do Unity's tutorials as it's likely you are more interested in that then programming or mathematics but you may actually like those. Try a programming book like learn 'C in 6 Days' (fictitious example book of a well known book sales ploy - if you don't know programming count on at least a month to go through one of those 'Learn Language Y in 1 Week' books) and try to pick one that doesn't reward you with fancy graphics to see if you really might like programming.

If you do want a good start on programming check out books in discreet mathematics as you likely won't have that available till college and it should give you some game ideas and well as build a fundamental understanding of basic program flow control. Discreet mathematics can be difficult though.

And the reason for those 'great salaries' is those salaries tend to top out after 5 years unless you move into management. Most programmers are at their most valuable in years 2 - 5 at a company. If you are lucky you and healthy and still into programming (many aren't and it programmer and business environment interaction dependent - some businesses are purposely set up such they have to be desperate for any modern code changes to their code base to happen) after 5 years with a company you can move to another company and 'wow' them there although most companies tend to go to the cheaper new grads for the 'wow' factor. After 5 years you are basically an expensive, non-original veteran programmer they'll target at downsizing time so cross train as systems administrator and various other computer expert specialties to move laterally if you don't want to be in management.

 

That's a good question, to which there's no single answer because there are so many factors. Where are you looking for a job? In which industry? What will the trends be by the time you're actually looking for a job?

Also, that particular question is kind of like asking "How much experience do I need with a hammer before I can be a carpenter?" C# is just a tool. How much you've used which particular tool is a factor, but it's only a small part of your overall skill as a software developer. It has to be used in tandem with a bunch of other tools (languages, libraries, IDEs, services) in a variety of different environments (desktop, server, mobile) and there are many domains you could specialize in (ie: the type of problem you're experienced at solving, eg: game dev, finance, desktop applications, mobile applications, web applications, back end services, etc. etc).

That all sounds daunting, but really it's like any other profession. The more you know about it, the more you'll typically develop two things: first, a broad, fundamental knowledge that covers the whole skill set in a little detail, and secondly a detailed knowledge of one or two specific areas, your "specialization".

Also, back to C# just being a tool... it really is like a hammer. In and of itself no one programming language is the whole answer. Even if you're in an environment where there's only one language in use, use of the language is only one of many tasks you need to be good at. Software design is language independent, is arguably far more important than writing code, and has a bunch of its own tools (such as UML - a whole other language, parts of which are designed just to describe things you'll do in other languages without knowing what those languages are).

Check out the concept of the "Software Development Life Cycle". There are loads of different approaches, and a common factor between many of them is that code is only a fraction of the overall work in creating a piece of software. Take a look at the other stuff that happens in the various different approaches to the SDLC, and you'll have an idea of some of the other tools that are important to learn.

 

The thing is if you want to work in the game industry (making games) take any of those figures and half it... then half it again.

That is because of a few things. One is that so many young people want to work in the gaming industry that they are willing to work on low salaries. Another is that gaming companies will often exploit young people by hiring them as unpaid interns "for the experience". Another is that they won't pay high salaries because "this job will look good on your CV". (Why do they need a good CV if they are all ready in their ideal job???)

Also, another is that they will expect you to work long hours with no overtime. So your hourly wage is not so good.

If you want good salaries you will have to get a "boring" job writing software for banks, aerospace, or the government.

Sources: Working in games companies.

Obviously there are always exceptions. But gaming jobs are "glamour jobs" just like wanting to work on a film set. Unfortunately there is no "equity" for game developers or game artists. There should be. Am I right comrades? Fight the power.

 

Or at a much reduced rate. I have a friend who was interning, and may still be I don't recall if he is being kept on or not, for Zenimax Online doing QA work in addition to learning other aspects of development. Quite a number of students from his college are doing the same thing. It is cheap labor in exchange for experience and work references.

 

Simply don't bother. If you need to be spoon-fed and babied about which programming language to learn, then you're likely not to get very far anyway. I normally wouldn't be this blunt, except that you've repeatedly wasted other peoples' time in the past asking for quotes and free consultations, and showing no regard or gratitude for their time in doing so.

 

Well, just go to C# classes and learn it. Should take a year before you know the language. C# isn't that complex providing you have a solid grasp of what programming is. It's by far one of the easiest languages to learn.

 

Oh, this is that dude..

Well, at least he's thinking about learning to do it, himself.

 

Well geez you can watch DeVry commercials the rest of your life and it's not going to help you.

I know a guy that only does C programming only and did most of the programming that runs casinos and ATM security and such that gets $100 an hour 8 yeas ago in inexpensive locations across America but you need the right connections to get that money in US. With 2 - 5 years though you should be able to make $40 - $50 as programmer or sys admin or archival guy or .... with no special connections at all.

Now this stuff about interns is most of them actually aren't given any meaningful work to earn a good salary with. Also once you graduate you cease being an intern. I was given 2 interns once and I did give them difficult work and they enjoyed it. And no they did not work long hours either. When they graduated they were hired for excellent starting salaries then. We were afraid someone else would hire them.

Now myself graduating before the computer boom I had a very hard time finding a job and the pay was like only 3 times minimum wage with in that time in the US was awful. Actually in those days headhunter firms wanted the programmer to pay a search fee up front for them to find you a job and then 10% of your salary the 1st year after they got you a job. Needless to say I said no.

Since then of course computer science jobs and those VoTech job salaries went through the roof such that in the US at least you'd have to take a job from a headhunter firm as a help desk technician to get less then $35K a year as a new graduate. By the way don't take a job as a sys admin or help desk tech or anything other than a programmer in the language you most wish to become expert in, in the industry you wish to work in. It's difficult to change industries and it's difficult to change languages and it's difficult to change computer science specialties - but mostly in their head.

Why those help test technician job nowadays don't even require a degree they require minimum wage and someone who can tolerate being forced to follow a checklist of troubleshooting procedures they looked up in a database and be fired if they vary from reading back that page verbatim. And they must complete the call in 5 minutes. It was honestly the worst and most dishonest work environment I'd ever seen. However the company that owned the online remedial schooling solution was making out like bandits with governments at multiple jurisdiction levels vastly over paying them. However the value of the solution was the actually course work mostly created by teachers and contributed free at their typically small salaries.

 

Well since you seem to know what you're talking about, here's my situation: I have about one year of college level courses that I took in high school, but that was 10 years ago, I have been learning a lot lately and I feel like I'm starting to catch up with all the new crazy languages to some degree, I can program anything that I imagined and well I'm not very fast at it and I'm still learning I know that I'm better than most average people... Average salary programmers, I just mean people in general. So if I was to pursue a career in computer programming would I need a degree?

 

Hmmm, I did about the opposite of you....I failed 3 years high school and had to do really well on the college entrance exam to be admitted and even then the first 2 years of college had many remedial classes I should have taken in high school had they been available.

Stating my general experience earlier in several paragraphs hardly qualifiers as everything but in the US generally speaking you will need a computer science degree to get hired at most places for most IT jobs. I even watched a guy with a degree in music get fired after company changed policy and declare he had to have a degree in computer science to work the job he had.

Then again, I've worked at a place in the US where you didn't have to have a degree in computer science to have a computer programming job with them but were paid likewise substantially less then you'd other wise be paid.

Good programming is never fast. Oh, the first 90% of the code can be written pretty fast usually but the last 10% usually is a clock eating headache. Also, I don't know how you feel about programming but I've always enjoyed it most when it was done and worked and would work long hours to get there sooner. That's not conducive to long term productivity or health. By comparison, I've worked as a systems administrator and for comparable and often better pay I have much less stressful work and more goof off time at work.

As far as Unity goes it's something I mess with and drop but as it's finally starting to deliver on it's platform independence and working games I'm planning on for every 3 parts time spent in Blender to have 1 part time spent in Unity programming in C#.

I'm being long winded but yes for most programming jobs in the USA you would be required to have a computer science degree put you can probably get hired with an associates degree which you shouldn't be too far from having. In Switzerland however I've trained folks as varied as mechanical, civil, and chemical engineers to be UNIX systems administrators - that company's main motivation was to train Swiss so they could stop importing expensive foreign workers to do what's really mostly an easy job.

You should also know in the US and most countries for some an Associate Degree in programming is enough, for most a Bachelor's is enough, but for some really hotty-totty places you need a Master's or PhD with special fields of concentration - some really are being 'snooty' but for some you really need the extra graduate study for intensive expertise.

 

The idea you need many years experience to get a professional job programming is simply a lie in some cases. What you need is talent and understanding of how to program. Although the competence of your employer and your ability to prove your ability will always increase chances (just like a degree would) but it is not an absolute requirement.

I have a very good friend who knew literally nothing about programming, and within a year learned by himself (self-taught), to land a job working for a software company making something like 60k. Why? Because he knew how to program.

99% of programmers are quite incompetent, so if you're any good, you shoot up to the top. Seriously, it's scary. His peers didnt go with him as he flew up because they were idiots who you wouldnt want programming anything for you.

Within a single year, he shot to the top of his company making $80,000+ and was making a lot of money. A few years after that, he was at literal top and now he's making $120,000+ a year as one of the major players.

We live in a state with very little in terms of technological opportunities. There are like 2-3 game dev companies here, and not too many more software companies. Although he had to move to get the bigger 120k+ salary.

So this guy working a factory job teaches himself to program and within a year (during his downtime) and then lands a job with 2x-4x the pay, then skyrockets to even more pay. Not every job requires every person to have decades of experience.

The reason he got the job in the first place, is that the place where he worked had an obvious (software) problem, and so he told the manager how to fix it and then fixed it himself- which got his name connected with a software employer who saw his potential.

 

"I know a girl; she lives down the hill. She won't do it, but her sister will."

What you should prepare for aren't the low probabilities and then use those to call everybody uninformed liars, but the fact that most established businesses that aren't using their programmers to create gaming throwaways will require you to have a computer science degree to program.

As for the quote from the famous song above I bet if either of those hypothetical girls knew the song targeted them what you'd get is a slap in the face.

 

I don't think it's an improbability type situation. I hear this story often enough. I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time not pursuing a job in this asap.

 

It is common enough for me to mention it.

Also, if someone states "You have to have a degree." but the reality is you don't- that means they are a literal liar, telling a lie. I know he was offended that I said that, but its true. When you say something false like "You need a degree." then you are lying. A more true statement would be, "You don't need a degree, but you will want one because..." That would be truthful.

All it takes is a competent employer. Although I'm sure those are quite uncommon (Just like a competent employee), but competent people know what to look for. They know the true value of a college degree and what it means. (i.e. they understand a moron can graduate with a PHd and a potential genius can be entirely self-taught.)

As long as people have the capacity to prove in tangible ways they are entirely competent or have great potential, competent employers will see that (considering everything else besides actual talent and potential to be unimportant, as it literally is).

No one will dispute that a degree helps to land a job and is a requirement for less competent employers. However a degree is literally worthless on its own if the person holding it doesn't understand their field.

 

http://www.techrepublic.com/article...-computer-science-degree-to-land-a-great-job/

Some companies actually see NOT having a degree as a GOOD thing. Having a degree means LESS of a chance of landing a job.

 

Probably best to check via a jobsite as they often have more salary data and often provide regional breakdowns of salaries for technical skills. Also check out the adverts for programming jobs, you will quickly realise that most jobs require a set of often very specific skills on top of one or more programming languages. E.g. XML, HTML, SQL, CSS.

It's a career where you will continually have to keep up to date with the newest technologies or you can find yourself relegated to the dreaded support staff role. On a treadmill of bug fixing and asking users to turn the computer off and back on again.

Also the world of game development and traditional software development are very separate career paths and industries.

PS Read the Dilbert Comic it will give you an insight into the world of IT or watch the IT Crowd!

 

Well you're in the wrong place that I can tell you. I had to delete my Dice account and I still get offers to go back overseas to work via LinkedIn although I've took early retirement. There is demand and you don't need to be a subject matter expert every time you open your mouth, just competent in your niche. TMI is not a selling point. Good advertisers avoid TMI while still avoiding lying or politically styled truth and accountability evasiveness.

I've never been contacted for anything regarding Unity that wasn't purely speculative and relatively poor paying in comparison to my experienced work but there are definitely non-speculative Unity grunt work jobs if you live in the right locations.

University taught competence in discrete and other branches of mathematics and other subject matter is relevant in many jobs. Actually encountering and fixing bugs created by others and in HW is relevant. Most games would never see light of day compared to the Test & QA standards most SW goes through. A series of 0s and 1s in a subject matter vacuum is useless.

Most jobs ain't going to asking to create a game or other programs that you find visually rewarding. They're going to ask you to create and manage ledgers that have no reward except an average salary, crummy hours and too long commute times and lack of complaining. At least you hope you don't make a mistake that brings complaints. There is nothing like being told a code change you did took over 6000 stores offline or the telephone service of the US Eastern seaboard. Imagine that; working as hard as being as competent as any game programmer rock star and your reward is simply no one recognizing that your work. You code simply and quietly did what it was supposed to do. No harm, no foul.

However, even without experience or a degree, if you can create a good resume with skills they are looking for they will fly you to interviews continentally and sometimes even internationally but you will not be able to disguise your real world experience or lack of it. Heck, it even takes experience to know not to stuff your resume you with every field specific acronym that's been birthed faddishly and discarded over the course of your career. Once you become experience you actually need to tailor your resume for individual jobs.

And let me tell you good writing is more difficult than good programming. There are no compilers. For me personally English is what nearly kept me out of college. I learned to write, read, rewrite, and then rinse, lather, and repeat again. All for a 150 word essay in college English, a resume, a cover letter that would say I worked to make it concise, correct, and as interesting as something like that could be in a way that I didn't pare down, proof read, and edit these paragraphs here to you.

I've throw out resumes that look like they were written by programmers waiting for a compiler to go through them. It's indicative of the effort they'd make in production code. No thank you very much. I throw out resumes by programmers that look like they have a poor work - life balance. Of course government and business leadership should do more for the average workers themselves but hey, do what you can yourself. You only live once. I went from remedial jock head at birth to merely acceptably and obscurely competent at niche work that I was luckily became something in demand through sheer drudgery. Nothing to prove except trying to avoid flunking out and not having a job that would pay back those student loans. It was fun to finally do things I didn't think I could do at all, day after day, week after week, semester after semester.

And that's what I'm going to enjoy about Unity once they advance it enough - making interactive animations without using the language, the math and the programming that was so unnatural for me to learn.

That was the biggest difference between the college buck version of my interviews and my experienced versions of my interviews. And enjoyment of your work and enjoying helping your colleagues counts - I've been hired after speaking no more than 5 minutes in an interview based on being enthusiastic and the pre-reading of my resume. It's hard to fake.

You'll see people like that in these forums too.

 

You capitalize good as if it is better than having no degree and being less competent is better than being more getting a degree and more competence for your chosen vocation. Those that dismiss a college degree as irrelevant are throwing away 4 years of college campus fun and growth. As I skipped 3 years of high school to play sports you can bet I didn't want to attend college but it was fun. Stop listening to those that tell you that being educated about the task at hand is a bad ideal. What's a bad ideal is not listening to other's viewpoints. No need to follow through but listen. College is a good place to learn to listen. Being locked away in your bedroom kludging together games is not a good place to learn to listen. Well if you consider listening to like-minded boys planning war and zombie games on forums listening; have at it.

Yes, I worked for a such a company when I got bored with early retirement and they were the most dishonest company and their workers were implicitly told to lie to students the company was hired to serve.

That company used decrepit amateurish java web app server solution several years old and full of security holes and content created for next to free by school teachers as a requirement of continue employment by various school districts around the country. I was fired for resetting the exam so she could retake it of a girl who's father lied to me about his wife being in the hospital to elicit pity. But hey, they knew the right people and profit margins are through the roof.

I also once paid thousands of dollars for what clear to me the SW was a technical disaster written by a self-taught in programming autism subject matter expert for my autistic nephew in the late 1990s. But hey, it was the only SW that had government approval as being relevant and allowed in school to teach. Nevermind that I could have wrote something better in a month. But as an aside I was already working in 64 bit & touch screen and that SW for autism was touchscreen.

How is a company not caring for competence a good thing? Are they in business for who they know or for their competence in product?

I've also bought a wearable technology solution 911 pager for my mother from such a company and was humiliated in front of my mother when I tested the solution. It didn't work and I spoke with their tech support line who proceeded to tell me they know it didn't work for many mobile phone networks. He read that out of the tech support database. Furthermore, the company was claiming to be based out of Louisville, Kentucky but simply had a phony headquarters set up there because a senator from the state had a buddy that would farm out the design and manufacture of the HW and SW to China while only hiring a staff in the US for tech support. So why didn't that company hire people from Kentucky as politicians invariably say they want to create good jobs for their constituents? Well it's because they claimed to base the company in Kentucky only to superficially look good to the voters in order to get the funding from this powerful Senator with those loose purse strings? Why because, the company could use the cost of living index in the Washington, DC area to charge much higher rates for the labour to the government the company hired, that's why. That company simply figured out an easy way to milk the government (taxpayers) for maximum profit all while selling a product their staff had next to no competence in supporting or even a good understanding of the telecom system in the United States. If it weren't for the competence of the Chinese engineers they wouldn't have even managed a blueprint.

Mud puddle deep they were. There are a lot of service businesses like that in the US. Your wealth is dependent on who you know more than competence then at any other time in history. I actually know a very powerful senator locally that I cleaned his tables as a 15 year old busboy way back in 1979 and my mother knows him too but I won't try to take advantage of that. All I do to him is complain we have no public transportation like Europe and to get businesses to stop abusing farm animals. That type in depth is the type of depth you & I have in the world of game engines. None. Deep as a landed raindrop. Remember that when you go looking for a job and be thankful no one's life depends on your game.

 

I never stated that it is better to be less competent without a degree than more competent than with a degree. That is a weird assumption to take from my posts.

I 100% agree with you that most of wealth is all about WHO you know, not what you can do. Our society is beyond screwed up in this regard, and the distribution of wealth is literal insanity. I entirely agree with you there.

I simply stated it isn't a fact that a degree equates to competence. It just equates to an increased chance of competence...or possibly even an increased chance of incompetence.

There are plenty of people with degrees from associates to doctorates who end up being total frothing idiots who didn't seem to learn a thing. For example, many so-called phd's appear on shows like Fox News to spout insane theories which are contrary to every other professional in their field. Stuff even an amateur knows is malarkey.

That's all I was saying. I don't really disagree with anyone here.

 

No, a degree is a very good indication that you weren't simply passed to get you out of school. That's pretty important. The professional sports leagues are full of people that were passed simply to get them out of school and keep them eligible to play.

 

Not sure what school you went to, but even in US colleges- if you do the work, you'll pass.
A graduating doctor with a 2.0 average is the same as a doctor with a 4.0 average.

If you don't believe me, I don't know what to tell you.

It's overwhelmingly obvious. Most CS graduates can't even pass a simple Fizz-Buzz test.

That degree is not a "very good indication you weren't simply passed to get you out of school."

http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

 

This doesn't make any sense. You're banging on and on about a "competent employer", but the basis of your whole story is that this "competent employer" had predominantly hired programmers with less skill than a guy with only one year's worth of self-taught experience. That's not a "competent employer". That's an employer who doesn't know how to hire programmers. You're holding up the one example of them getting it right by accident, and selectively ignoring what you're suggesting are every other hire they'd made.

What's more, there's no reason to expect that it was in fact programming skill that lead to this guy's success after landing the job. There's far more to a programming job than just writing code.

 

Never heard of the Fizz-Buzz test it sounds cliquish and faddish like Google's earlier intelligence tests were the same.

Wrong - in my college classes in 3 years at a 30,000 University in the Midwest in an 500K urban area there was:

1) one American woman
2) 40% American males
3) 5% female foreigners
4) the rest were male foreigners

Why does the above matter? To show the disdain the mass media has instilled in the population for a rounded education and humble effort. It's embarrassing how in many American social groups flaunt rude behavior and emphasis flaunting your rejection of education and work is to be admired. I would venture that there are even fewer Americans today percentagewise in CS than the late 80s and early 90s. The Chinese are easy to like with their humble manner but they are extremely competent and frankly the technology revolution coming out of China is just starting. They will raise all boats comfort level internationally as they have already done in the US and Europe and world-wide. I am thankful for their efforts, but they suffer for it. Their environment & ours must be cleaned. Honestly, the industrial west should have been a lot better at raising all boats if not for war, crime, and greed. Talk is cheap. American economy talk money and cooks books but Chinese economy creates real tangible products to help everyone. America could and should try the same with ample grains to make substitute meats and solar energy but it's always about maximizing profit so they take what isn't theirs via backroom deals. Hence big interest in Alaska, the Gulf of Mexico, fracking, and irresponsible use of free trees and free grazing on USDA controlled lands. A disgrace really. I'm not a communist or even a liberal either. China has problems but with security and comfort made available with planned restraint rather than outsourcing greed, communism winds up being just another label for another variance of democracy if representation is elected.

See to get a job in a profession you must choose and train for that profession. That's how it works. You just don't spend high school getting that Sega action and get drafted by the NBA. So the fact is programming is not a 1st choice of most people. It's uncool and unpopular and not fun. You have to imagine helping people to tolerate it or at least I do. I chose it after asking the university chancellor not kick me out for having an F average in electrical engineering. I couldn't compete with using pencil & paper with those EE students in the allotted time and doing circuits matrices with their scientific HP calculators. I had to promise to make straight As that semester. No more visiting bars when it seems my friends would always show up before exams to drink.

LMAO, colleges just don't pass failing students to get rid of them. Even with their HP calculators must flunked out of EE like I did and then CS and Math too. The difference was I asked the chancellor for another chance and was lucky enough to be granted the chance.

I can tell you why a lot of programmers can't program from personal experience. I taught them how to make local and global variable changes in my code using vi. Dang man, teaching them vi was hard enough for me after I spent umpteen hours retyping code because I typed the wrong character in the wrong vi mode. You IDE folks don't known how good you got it but I LMAO at the memory of those mistakes now. I've seen fellow students digging through trash cans looking at print outs of discarded code looking for the easiest to cop. LMAO. I loved college. Mostly.

Mind you, we had to sit in a commons with 80x24 tvi910 terminals with all severely burned in screens and hard plastic chairs with no movement.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to witness this at a uni and don't disregard the planning it takes to cheat through 4 years of college and the fact they were able to pass written exams without doing their programing work. It is true though I was given a C as a Senior for better work than some Graduate students products because a C would fail them but as Junior or less in Uni professors had no qualm flunking you out. And not all grads pass - I can remember fixing a guys numerical analysis program and the bug was the code not the formulas and he complained because he got a B or C. I'm like what to you expect. That is undergrad work. You are lucky UT Arlington charges less than $200 a credit hour.

The reason they can't program isn't because they can't program, it's because they are lazy. It takes effort and time.

I say this as someone so bewildered that I was given hearing, speech, and IQ tests in 1st grade so I am not being smart here. This is opinion based on my experience.

 

Fizzbuzz is a really simple program that you're asked to design and code on the spot. Covers io, loops, logic, knowing how to access the mod function. Also tests your ability to identify and solve a problem, design and code a solution without aid. One employer said that as many as 70% of their applicants were falling this test, and therefore were not considered for positions, even some cs master holders they said failed.

 

Yeah, I don't see a problem with that test, and by its stated purpose ("filter out the 99.5% of programming job candidates who can't seem to program their way out of a wet paper bag") it looks perfectly reasonable to me. It's no harder than many a standard, first year university tute question. Really, if you can't pass that you shouldn't be applying for a programming job.

 

Oh, I figured it was one of those 'Heads I win, tails you lose.' type of intelligence tests. I had to do that once while they watched me work out the code. After I stopped blushing I managed it.

I've also taken multiple choice exams of the same sort at Robert Half and other places. Embarrassingly I was given the same exam by several different headhunters in Manhattan so they must have a social brunch for headhunters where they trade exams. And some headhunter insist on Ivy Leaguers and even say so in the ads - if you're not Ivy League they toss your resume.

So you're right in that it's not always about ability there is a social aspect to it as well. US government has made many employment laws regarding social aspects it's just not a few headhunter firms looking for Ivy Leaguers.

So now you have to think well if they can qualify for work based on social aspects then why must we, the non-socially favoured, qualify? And for each social qualification aspect you add to the exception list you spiral down into creating a country were the folk are all treated like royal family. We're all just too down trodden to actually make an effort to survive here doing menial tasks until retirement can you spare a brah a well paying job for which he's not qualified? But Sir! The businesses have outsourced those because they didn't even want to pay the qualified for that work. Well then overpay unqualified via government contractors. Or do you really mean one actually has to be do the job and be competent at it?

 

...........

The guy is very successful, so he obviously knows how to hire people.

I think you're just confused, thinking that hiring good employees is this easy task, especially in software development.

A ton of programmers are incompetent, so that means that all employers who hire them must be incompetent too huh?
The entire premise of this contradicts the fact he hired and groomed a talented potential employee- something that only a competent employer would do. (Incompetent employers would dismiss the talented employee due to the lack of a degree.)

I won't argue here though. Everyone will simply act as if they are fully knowledgeable34 in both who to hire and how running a large business actually works. As for me, I will just stick with people I know who have hired others, legitimate research which shows evidence of this or that (ex. the FizzBuzz test and employers who discuss the % of applicants who are capable of passing it).

@goat
You simply ignore the FizzBuzz test, as if it is somehow a gimmick. Do you even know what it is? It's an incredibly simple test that any programmer can do- or at least attempts. It's a way to weed out people who literally don't know how to program.
Many applicants couldn't even attempt a solution, let alone do a correct answer.

To ignore that as some kind of gimmick is just lunacy. The people in this conversation probably don't even have experience hiring others or owning a business. While I don't either, I don't have an opinion. I am simply discussing things which I have read or articles which I link to which are from people who indeed DO have experience in these areas.

....oi vei.... with comments like this, there is no conversation. It perplexes me that some people in our world think every who graduates MUST be competent in their field. As if the requirements to graduate or get good grades in college are dependent on competence rather than simply completing assignments. I won't even go into more complex topics like memory retention and practical experience.


Anyways...

You guys are more than welcome to accuse people who are successful as being incompetent employers because their employees aren't geniuses or denouncing evidence to suggest many are incompetent at their job simply on an emotional whim. I really could care less.

Just don't flip out when you discover that in real life, a degree doesn't always equate to competence... or even an understanding of basic knowledge.

 

He obviously knows how to run a business. That doesn't mean he's necessarily strong at every aspect of doing so.

No, having done it myself in the past I'm perfectly aware of the difficulties of hiring good people. I'm also not talking about any other aspect of their business. The thing is, it's perfectly common for a business to succeed based on their strengths despite having weaknesses - nobody is perfect, and thankfully you don't need to be.

From your anecdote these guys did have a weakness in the area of hiring good programmers, evidenced by the fact that they had hired a number of programmers who you've described as being less effective than a guy with less than one year's experience.

You're willfully ignoring the fact that he hired "a ton of programmers [who are] incompetent" and using the fact that he hired one who isn't (but had only one year of experience at the time) to demonstrate competence. That's perfect examples of both selective evidence and confirmation bias.

 

You ignore the possibility that the hire is a very talented programmer while everyone else you see as "bad programmers" simply because they were beaten by someone who was self-taught.

It can't be that the "bad hires" were actual typical or even considered good hires by most, and 'good' is just a really low bar we have due to the level of incompetence in the field?

 

*shrug* It can be whatever you want it to be.

Regardless of how we interpret this example, it's only one example, which goes right back to the selective evidence thing. It's fairly easy to find one-off examples of things, but even if we accept that they are what they're presented as they don't bear application to the general case.

Even if I were to accept that this guy is straight up as phenomenally awesome in the programming department as you're saying, I look around at other self-taught people after a year and the same doesn't bear true of even the best of them. It's no more useful in making real world decisions than any other rags to riches story, because even if it's true as presented then the circumstances that lead to it are almost certainly unique.

 

If the majority of CS graduates are not very competent, then the majority of self-taught people will not be very competent either.

It's not as if the college is responsible for making them dumber. Just like how it is not responsible for somehow making them smarter than self-taught. What they learn, their practice, and what they put into learning (in either way) is what matters. That, and perhaps the way their brain is wired (some form of natural talent).

In fact, the natural talent theory goes a long way. Not sure if it was in the article I linked or another one, but one group can accurately predict using a test before they even enter the class, whether or not they will be able to learn programming.

 

And where are you pulling this causality from?

Sure. Back in the early days of programming people were hired for the job based on a logic test and then trained on the job. Anecdotal evidence suggests this approach worked fairly well, and that makes sense - if you break it down and remove the language aspect then programming is about logic, math and problem solving. I think it's fair enough to label pre-existing skill in those areas as "talent" for the purpose of programming.

 

To jump in real quick, as some one in their 30's I know a LOT of people with worthless and/or partial degrees that they could not afford to finish. Every day the cost of college spirals more and more out of control, while class rooms become more about churning out kids and less about critical thinking and life skills.

All the while in public schools we keep cramming more and more "college is the only way to succeed" mentality down kids' throats, when in reality there simply isn't a job demand to match these expectations, which the colleges in turn try to tell you that that means you'll need degrees for things that you didn't in the past.

I won't go so far as to call it a racket (except places like Phoenix and DeVry, they are rackets), I'm just saying that college isn't the only option or necessarily the best option.

Obviously it could be easily pointed out the leagues of self made individuals that dropped out of school, from Dave Thomas to Bill Gates and all the Zuckerberg’s in between, but even if that's an anecdote companies are also caring less and less about degrees (including Google).

Sure college is for SOME people. But not everyone. And I would strongly discourage anyone from going that couldn't give it 100% of their attention and pay for it without massive loans. Because flunking out of college with a debt will straight up destroy your life and make you an indentured servant for life with no means to get out of it.

 

My experience within various programming fields (technical enterprise, insurance, and now indie gaming) is sort of a mixed bag. At some places it certainly is possible to get a job without a degree based on programming and logic aptitude tests alone but at least in the U.S. it does limit the places you can apply. Up the chain the anecdote about the economy playing a factor I would agree with, when the economy is good you can probably get buy without one and when it's not you are really limiting your choices. Even when the economy is good you are taking a chunk of possible employers out as many do require a degree.

In my general experience if I'm to think of the numerous programmers I've worked with over the years (probably over 1000 people) I can't say I've felt any correlation between the degree and their ability as a programmer. On both sides of the fence there have been great ones and terrible ones. I wish (especially the large companies) that hiring would have more aptitude tests and less reliance on just the degree. Obviously other general attributes like motivation and work ethic play a large role as well. To me the degree states that you have the ability to learn and have a very basic technical foundation. In any specific job you are going to need to pick up new skills quickly and while that foundation is somewhat useful your other attributes will quickly become more important to your performance.

 

I just browsed a cruise line's jobs in the city I'm moving to, have a senior programming analyst job opening, pl/net? Anyway, they want a degree OR EQUIVALENT EXPERIENCE right on their web page.

A degree is just one way of demonstrating competency, but if you built and maintained a web flash portal, just as an example, I somehow think that would be a nice little addition to a resume.

In my work, almost nobody had a license, never stopped them from being hired. I get 2% more money with the license, they still don't go get it. I'm assuming it's similar. I mean, even.if a degree earned you 10% more it still isn't *necessary* from what I gather.

 

Gamasutra Game Industry Salary Survey http://www.gamasutra.com/salarysurvey2014.pdf

Computer World IT Salary Survery http://www.computerworld.com/category/salarysurvey2014/

 

Much like gamedev talk is cheap, you have to get out there and apply and see how you do. You might get hammered in the interviews or get no interviews at all, or you might get a job right away, it depends on a lot of factors of which programming skill is just one.

 

You simply don't know how great these numbers are unless you've worked in any other trade or industry. 35-50k without having to pay for your own equipment and travel expenses, with room to grow in your career, without risking life and limb on a daily basis...

 

That's really horrible advice. Just apply, nobody knows what will really happen. Just throw yourself out there. Sounds uninformed and just made up. Kind of like other advice I see here, at times... just make whatever game, spend a year on it or two years. Release it. Who knows. No... that's not an informed mode of conduct. It's based on nothing. What reasonable person recommends just doing whatever at random because anything could happen? You could also send out a resume with practically nothing on it and get rejected all over because you didn't take the time to properly develop your skills and gain documented experience.

Been researching this two days and I could give better advice than this.

 

Sure thing, keep talking about it ad nauseum I'm sure that will work out.

 

Nice, use sarcasm instead of actually making sense. Nobody will notice.