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How to let the gamer have emotions from game? ....More data!

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by hongwaixuexi, Sep 1, 2019.

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  1. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Some of my thoughts on game design.

    Games are not films, so they create emotions by different means. In films emotions can arise when the characters talked each other. While in game the player just skip the same dialogues quickly.

    In game, emotions lie in data. Have more data, then have more emotions. For instance if you want the gamer interact with other NPCs, then create a attribute for measuring the relationship with NPC.
    c6323cd3d539b6007ea80849e050352ac45cb7e2.jpg

    For instance, In RPG, STR DEX VIT INT MEN are too common to be unique.
    Add more another attributes never used before to get unique emotions.

    3838bd4543a9822627a72cd98382b9014890ebe3.jpg timg.jpg
     
  2. SparrowGS

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    Lemme just grab some popcorn..
     
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  3. Deleted User

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    Their fault then if they miss the emotion...
     
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  4. Volcanicus

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    Completely and utterly false. Your notions of emotions are completely wrong on this. You are going about it from a numbers perspective, calculating it. As with actual intelligence, emotions are driven by symbolism and myths, not point systems.
    You cannot just talk emotions into people. That is why sometimes forced conflicts in movies suck and don't sit well with the audience. Because the intent, the meaning, the method, matter more than the content.

    Please read the following books and get a better grasp of symbolism and emotions from Carl Jung:
    - Psychology of the Unconscious
    - The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious
    - Man and his Symbols

    If I told you a chinese folk tale about how a lowly peasant managed to usurp the ranks of the noble-driven city and raise not only above the nobles in terms of power, influence and money but even above that, to the heavens and beyond through sheer cunning, you'd probably feel at ease with the tale, regardless of who the hero is. Whether it is Sun Wu Kong, Harry Potter, Jesus himself, a Fox and a Bear, He-Born-of-Ashes (Askkeladd) or Nie Li. The point being that it never mattered to us Humans WHO it was but WHAT he did. And this is done through symbolism, mythology and emotions.

    Literally, a painting can evoke the strongest and deepest emotions. That is a still image.
    Books, can evoke emotions based on the sensibility implied and the symbolism involved.
    Music, can evoke emotions. Heck even the "bling" from picking up coins or rings in mario or sonic evokes a sense of gradual achievement.
    Movies evoke emotions through a narrative, a myth or sequence of symbols.
    Video games are even greater as the player can become the agent of those symbols and myths, thus he is the agent responsible of driving the story through actions. Bioshock is an amazing example of this where the game IS the story and the emotions are driven not by points but by game play.

    I recommend you go Tabula rasa on this and read and understand what Carl Jung meant.
     
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  5. YBtheS

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    It is not true that emotions cannot arise when characters talk to each other in games. If the user decides to potentially ruin their experience by skipping through dialogue, they have the choice to. Just as one has the choice to fast forward through parts of movies that are perceived as boring (unless you're in a movie theater).
    People get emotions from... some statistics? Perhaps "emotions" is the wrong term for what you are trying to describe. I don't feel particularly happy, sad, mad, evious, etc because I see an NPC with heaps of stats and numbers tied to them.
     
  6. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Do you mean emotions are driven by game play?
    If this is your meaning, then it is not useful for game design. Because similar game play games can have very different results on emotions. Game play is too general.

    In my opinion data ( and its derivative) evoke the gamer's emotions, not the story or the dialogue or the game play.
    If the game can't evoke emotions, then add some data into the game. If the game evoke wrong emotions, then modify the data.

    For instance if you want the gamer has fluctuating emotions, just increase or decrease the important data which the gamer cares.
    And the gamer won't care the beggar NPC unless the beggar can increase one attribute which the gamer cares.

    The symbols and myths work for data. The gamer will be in love with data with the help of symbols and myths.
    02fcb0a1cd11728bce12e1c0c1fcc3cec2fd2c15.jpg
     
  7. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    from all statistics (especially their variations) and the rest data.
    For instance visual novels have very less data. So they focus on hentai style to evoke instinct.
     
  8. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I believe nobody here will read these old books.
     
  9. YBtheS

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    Can you give an example of a time when you've played a game where data has made you emotional?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
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  10. Volcanicus

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    Yes, that is what I mean.
    Why is it so fulfilling to play mario games? Because it addresses the age-old mythology of dragonslaying. In all myths, the princess represents adulthood while the dragon stands in the way of the hero trying to achieve it. Bowser is a dragon.
    Why does Bioshock trigger a gut-wrenching feeling midway when you find out you are but a slave to the game all along? And the finale shows how your actions, whether good or evil, were rewarded in the little sisters helping you! We have all experienced this: betrayal and support. And it was evoked through the gameplay. Not by shooting splicers, but by progressing through the story and the actions you are forced to take to progress the story. In fact you are encouraged to slay/save the sisters in order to get stronger while providing the story with


    Please provide several CONSISTENT examples of games that evoke emotions through data/numbers/derivatives. And not the dx/dy kind...
    I am curious to see what you will come up with.
    Games like final fantasy, dragon quest, paper mario, Dragon Age and golden sun weren't great because of numbers or items and did not evoke any emotions past the "cool!" when you get a lucky crit or something. They were amazing because they evoked the Odyssey/Journey to the West myth and in each stage/chapter you had to resolve a conflict through various means, often symbolic, other than combat.

    Then you will remain at the feet of the dead titans that built everything wondering how to get to the heavens and reinventing fire; while the rest of humanity pushes past the heavens by reading these old books. This is stuff over 50 years ago that you have not yet learned or mastered.

    I am going to take a break from replying to you and give you a very constructive suggestion:
    Pick any children's folktale you like, one that evokes a positive emotion in you. Now, take that tale and make a game out of it. It can be about a character, about getting places, about anything you want as long as the main reference to the folktale is present.
    I would like to see how you would apply numerology to this in a way to evoke emotions.
     
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  11. hongwaixuexi

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    I think emergence games are good examples. For instance:
    In Darkest dungeon, when leveling up, the NPC gets good trait not bad trait. Feel lucky.
    In Rimworld, the prisoner has lower resistance.
    In Diabolo, you get different weapons.
     
  12. Ryiah

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    I don't think you can find enough popcorn to cover this entire thread.
     
  13. hongwaixuexi

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    Nobody will play slot machine all day at home, because no money transferred in this process. While people do this thing with all intentions at Casinos, because money transferred in every play.

    Make the data feel as important as money or similar things.
     
  14. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Great. I invested some money on popcorn makers last year.
     
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  15. YBtheS

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    Sounds like cherry picking. I can't see how you'd derive any emotions from knowing that your character has a hair length stat that determines how long his hair is. It seems like you're describing feeling emotion due to good mechanics that use data; not feeling emotion due to just the data being there. For example, if prisoners have a statistic for resistance, that means nothing unless there is a mechanic in place that actually uses that stat (ie making them more likely to try to break free).
     
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  16. hongwaixuexi

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    Design the data which the gamer will care. If the gamer can get a big reward due to knowing the hair length, then the data is worth caring.

    If data don't evoke emotions. So what evoke emotions? What elements beyond data can evoke emotions?
     
  17. Murgilod

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    I have read literally all of these books.

    Weird that you'd say this considering how much you obsess over theory and reading rather than actually doing something related to game dev.
     
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  18. hongwaixuexi

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    There is no evidence you read these books and understand them.
    "literally" means not really.
     
  19. Murgilod

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    "People with experiences other than mine exist! Better call them a liar!"

    That's you right now.

    Like everyone said, your fundamental understanding of emotions is so far off base that it ends up being completely gibberish. Data is meaningless, context is everything.
     
  20. hongwaixuexi

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    It's useless in game design. Do I focus on all elements? Do I spend time on all elements? You can't get priority by this statement.

    While if data is so important, then you will put data design as a priority, and you will put more time on data design. My thoughts on game design focus on useness. Easily understand, and easily to follow.
     
  21. hongwaixuexi

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    I never think that. Don't make it look like as I said that.
     
  22. Ryiah

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    It's either that or we start making the assumption that you have no idea what the words you type mean.
     
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  23. hongwaixuexi

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    I conclude it by science - probability.
    First, Murgilod doesn't look like a reading person from her replies in my previous threads.
    Murgilod does read some books, and it's very very few chance some books are exactly
    Psychology of the Unconscious
    - The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious
    - Man and his Symbols

    Because there are many more popular psychology books, why Murgilod read these obscure books instead?

    Because Murgilod has programming skills, so she can't have a major in psychology.
     
  24. Ryiah

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    Guessing randomly isn't a science.

    Psychologists would disagree with you.

    https://www.marsja.se/every-psychologist-learn-programming/
    https://skillcrush.com/2017/09/26/who-codes-psychology-major-or-physics-and-math-lover/
    https://computingforpsychologists.w...very-psychology-student-should-learn-to-code/
     
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  25. hongwaixuexi

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    How about the probability a psychologist learns Unity, and makes a living by Unity programming, not by psychology.
    Even Murgilod has a major in psychology. My thinking process is still reasonable. It's called incident in probability.
     
  26. Murgilod

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    Oh my god, what? No, context is not "useless in game design." If anything, context is massively important because it sets up the entire emotional response framework. You can absolutely get priority from this statement because once you understand the context of the game, you can understand what should be focused on to deliver that.

    Data is not a priority. Data is the background. Games are interfaces, not data pumps.


    So, first, you're making some pretty bold assumptions here, considering the other threads are me telling you that you keep focusing entirely on books instead of any practical development.

    On what F***ing planet are the works of Carl Jung, the founder of analytical psychology, whose works are taught across a multitude of disciplines (including anthropology and archaeology, my original field of study), whose works are the foundation of a lot of the core concepts of the Persona series of games, obscure?
     
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  27. hongwaixuexi

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    You can say "context is king" to Netflix, Disney, Google and many other companies.. Now it can be considered as clichés.
     
  28. Murgilod

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    CONTEXT.

    NOT CONTENT.

    CONTEXT.
     
  29. hongwaixuexi

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    OK.
    Context is so abstract. How can you turn context into real coding or design?
     
  30. Murgilod

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    Context is a fundamental of design. It guides your hand so that you can produce something coherent. Coding is not relevant.
     
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  31. SparrowGS

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    Guys im like 90% sure he's just F***ing with ya'll, this is just ridiculous.
     
  32. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    You never use "for instance", so how to catch up with your idea?
     
  33. Murgilod

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    By making a game. By looking at games and identifying what people are relating to or latching on to. By playtesting. By reading some F***ing Jung. By actually listen to people who have actually been doing things instead of sitting on your thumb and finding any excuse you can to put forth untested hypothesis instead of doing the actual work.
     
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  34. YBtheS

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    You're just saying that emotion comes from mechanics, not data. As you just said, data isn't inherently emotional. It needs mechanics behind it do derive emotion. As for what else might cause emotions, voice acting, dialogue, and visuals are some examples. If you don't get emotions from those, I can only assume that you are a robot.
    Perhaps. And if we stop replying, he will just go away eventually to some other forum so.... I'm just not going to reply to @hongwaixuexi again and I would advise that everybody do the same. No reason to get angry over someone who is either trolling or does not listen to anything. Replying, at this point, is only wasting your time.
    That's all :p
    upload_2019-9-2_13-23-13.png
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  35. Volcanicus

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    He isn't.
    You should read asian non-shinto mythologies and stories to better understand Chinese culture. Numbers are very important. So important in fact that in the middle of an odyssey, the hero will engage in some sort of trade where he makes a profit, even if it has nothing to do with the story or the context.
    If you are somewhat curious, read the graphic novel Tales of Demons and Gods or the light novel if you want to deal with 500+ chapters. At many occasions, the hero will engage in trade for absolutely no reason.

    I wish I could agree however this is a failure on our part to be able to communicate ideas across a cultural barrier. Perhaps it is an impossible task or perhaps we aren't employing the correct method of communication.

    This is an age-old example of the idea that specialists cannot move outside of their field.
    Those "old books" as you called them, @Murgilod put it nicely, they are from the father of psychoanalysis and its meanings and methods are applied today in psychiatry amongst other fields. It isn't that hard to read a 100-200 page book...

    Funny enough, if you want solid data-driven research and love numbers, project daedalus from Nick Yee addresses a lot of it and even though it is data driven, the meaning of the data is purely psychological. Meaning you must understand the fundamentals of psychology (i.e. read the works of the father) to even begin grasping what it means.
    Here's a link: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001298.php?page=4
     
  36. YBtheS

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    Intriguing....I didn't know this.
    I disagree. I think that he/she is just making an illogical argument. For example, what he/she described as emotion from data is emotion from mechanics as seen here:
    At first, I figured that this was a language problem and that he/she didn't understand what the word "data" actually meant but then I realized that he/she understands that pieces of data are things like numbers and statistics.

    If this does actually come down to bad communication, then I'd like to warn those who get upset about these threads. Either don't respond or try to take a new approach to responding to become potentially more clear for people whose first language is not English and whose mindset doesn't necessarily match yours.
     
  37. JoeStrout

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  38. hongwaixuexi

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    Suppose you are right.I separate data from the game purposely. Which thing is easy? Thinking of mechanics from thin air or thinking of data then get the mechanics. If mechanics has a body, then it turns out to be data. There is method from seven habits: let's begin with end. Why not try beginning with data? then get the mechanics.

    “Make a game" is so ambiguous. Childish game or serious game? two-week work or two-year work?
    "Too general" theory doesn't help much in game design.

    My reply is I am still open minded.
     
  39. hongwaixuexi

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    Thanks for you explanation.
    I don't think there exists a culture barrier. I really have a different opinion. The gamer thought he is greatly touched by the story of the game. In fact, he is touched by data controlled by mechanics. Neurology has been used for advertisement, and it shows emotions can be evoked purposely.

    So I believe in future AI will develop the most additive games for people, because AI can control so many data to evoke emotions of gamers.
     
  40. AcidArrow

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    That's for you to decide.
    Eehh, that's a way too broad statement to be true in all cases.

    Also by the way, putting aside that BS about programmers and psychology: Jung is not obscure and people just read psychology books for "fun" some times. I mean I've read Psychology of the Unconscious and I'm not a psychology major or whatever. It's not an extravagant claim to make that you've read a bunch of books.
     
  41. Murgilod

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    You have not once shown yourself to be open minded. Whenever you start a thread, you make bold assumptions that make no sense as you've never made a game, then spend the thread defending the assumptions you've made.
     
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  42. hongwaixuexi

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    Does my assumption come from thin air? I think it a long time. I observed a many successful indie games, and there is no game design book to explain why these games succeed. Then I think maybe we need new thoughts to understand game design.
     
  43. hongwaixuexi

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    Spend several years making one game.
    Spend one year making several games for several years.

    which is better?
     
  44. Murgilod

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    Design is only a small part of why something succeeds.
     
  45. hongwaixuexi

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    I think 80:20 principle applies for successful games. Design take 80%.
     
  46. Murgilod

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    This is not how the Pareto principle works and even if it was you'd still be wrong. There are loads of well designed indie games that go absolutely nowhere and loads of indie games that do nothing particularly remarkable or well that succeed all the time. The biggest things are not design, but polish and accessibility. After those, it's about promotion.
     
  47. hongwaixuexi

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    Examples please.
     
  48. Volcanicus

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    AI is a fantasy. It can never be done, not the way we approach it today.
    Today, AI is a series of IF statements and datamining pattern recognitions. That is as close as you'll get to a worm or a cell.
    If you want true INTELLIGENCE, you need to figure out a way to convey IDEAS, not data (and that means symbolism and here we go again with Carl Jung). Just as the word "small" is relative within contexts and meanings, data is not. And no matter how many times you redefine your class for a word to give it meaning, those meanings fall flat outside of the word itself and into context. Because a 100$ bill is a small item relative to you, or has a small value relative to a house but is big in terms of salary per hour and so on.
    And as a game critic once said, who can define what is a "fun" game if not people and at that point what purpose would AI have other than generating 99% garbage and 1% gems that PEOPLE will have to QA and test anyways!? This is the whole 100 monkeys with typewriters situation!

    Ok, here's a challenge:

    What can we do in this thread to help you accept that your entire premise is incorrect?
     
  49. hongwaixuexi

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    I disagree. Even I don't study machine learning and other similar topics, I know AI made a lot of progress.

    In fact, I read many behavior psychology books because they are much more popular than Jung's book. Conditioned reflex can be used in game. When the gold number increases, the gamer will feel happy automatically. Skinner box are widely used in game design.
    timg.jpg
     
  50. AcidArrow

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    Again that’s for you to decide. I did the former.

    Although judging by your Skinner box mentions it seems you are on your way to make terrible mobile games.
     
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