How to create a MMORPG?

A few years after you starve from lack of work and funds... If someone more important hasn't starved before you and already won it.

-Dane

 

How to create a MMORPG?
Just not.

Do MMO...
Strategy games
Racing games
Point and Click adventures
Jump 'n' Runs
Beat 'em Up
Text based game
or anything else you can find here.

But please no MMORPG anymore.

 

Oh good, I was getting worried that I might never get it : )


JK, No seriously, I'm designing my own MMO, and I'm not some kid wanting to be the next Club Penguin. Anyway, to answer the question that's the whole point of this topic: Storyline. I think that that, apart from good graphics and regular updates, is the most important thing in making an MMORPG. After all, it is a Role Playing Game, so the player want to play a character, and he needs a good setting. All the successful MMO games, WoW, EVE online, they all have a central storyline that the players base their roleplay on. Without a good setting or background storyline, you can take the RP out of MMORPG and just have a game where people race to be the one that destroys the most goblins.

 

Not to be rude, but: Why not?

 

Typical. I post and the whole topic goes inactive

 

Yea, there might be a problem with you
Regarding my post, I just feel like there goes one MMORPG down and two arise. At least commercial publishers do that.

 

It's a habit it happens everywhere, here, Lego message boards, RP forums...

 

i know its an old post but i want to encourage developpers and new people to try and make mmo's.

because the ones on the throne are far from perfect. wow only regained its playerbase because those people tried out all other mmo but most did not find anything on equal footing.

the main reason here (out of my point of view) lies in the combat system and in the grinding farming.
if i go to another mmo and make max lvl in 1 week and then i see a tremendous list of things i need to farm grind just to be able to beat people in pvp or to take part in a raid...i just uninstall and go back to my well equipped wow character
well in my case i just went to dota after trying nearly every mmo on high lvl.
unless!!!! there is finally an mmo with a good combat system that is balanced.. and not this S***ty rock paper scissor stuff where it just gets frustrating to loose a 1v1 arena because my class is simply not good against my enemy and despite im above him in skill he wins by spamming macros... hi bns...*cough*
yeah you could say im just bad but if you check some finals in korea you see the same...the one who actually played better the sin lost to the bladedancer in the end. it was close but still...he lost.

so if you want to do a mmo first check if the players will like it. then do the coding.
there are actually whole books about this...like will i have npc's do i have events what makes my game different from others in this and that aspect...its a long list of questions and i think you only have success if you can answer them all.

but then again there are not many mmo's out with success so you might be lucky if the following points bring innovation but thats just my guess.

grafics:
forget about it. it really does not matter much in the beginning if your game is good you grow and can invest in better looks. wow did the same so did dota and so on. just make it work maybe look fun or cute whatever.


1. story!
its still an rpg so the story should be appealing to some extend. so players like the world and want to find out what happens to it and most important they can identify with theyr character. that keeps them hooked.
but dont spend to much time on story since many players just klick through quests for speed reasons but make the base story interesting--> the red string. connect some minor stuff to it... gg but let it open so you can add more later on or the rpg fans can roleplay in the gaps. just check some anime's with good character developpment. dont paint all out leave stuff unknown...so people get interested create theyr theories and so on.
implement some humor. dragon age has a good way of funny dialogues fitting in the story if u need some inspiration.
and seriously if you are a genius at writing storys better write a fantasy book. i need new stuff to read haha

2. lvling
make it special. let them do pvp or pve so everyone can do the thing he likes. and be creative. let us do puzzles make it even a little hard. and by hard i dont mean kill 1000 spiders instead of 100. thats boring. make one spider we have to try 20 times or even find friends... its called mmo for a reason. most publishers forgot that fact...here u can get plus points if you dont forget that fact. and we only lvl once so instead of making it a one week grind to max lvl make it some fun...make us find friends..make us form guilds and discover a world of mistery and danger together...the social aspect is a good factor to make people enjoy the game and stick to it. i mean if i go into a tennisclub i make friends there i do other things with. wow at start was the same. try to find a way to kick that in and your mmo has success.

3. combat system
here should your focus be. seriously i saw some amazing mmo's good looks nice story...but that static boring combat that is unbalanced kills them off.

does it have a good combat system that you can balance?
and here is your best chance to be successful!! especially in a mud game.
if your grafics are behind and the story is somewhat 0815 who cares aslong as you manage a pvp system where new players have a chance vs veterans u win. and if you manage to find something different than rock paper scissor... u win big times. because then we would finally have a totally balanced mmo! here is where you really stand out. there will always be someone with better graphics better story smoother code...but if your combat system is revolutionary...you are the man.

the solution for new players to be able to do pvp vs veterans without farming gear for ages... so far is a pvp server where everyone has the same items. or you make pve easy mode so everyone gets the items like in wow. but yeah...please dont. haha

just keep in mind if u do that pve looses a lot of meaning both ways..... who farms 2 month a dungeon for a legendary if he cannot use it except for the next boss? be creative. open world is a solution but well it should not be faction whise... those are rarely balanced out. just dump all players in a pot and split them according to theyr stats in 2 equal teams would be my solution. but im studying prgramming only a year now so until i start something myself it will take some years i fear. or make legendary items very very rare and let people use them as skin only in pvp like dota. like this people dont look all the same even with crappy graphics. we like individualism.

4. pve
as said in lvl'ng make it a challenge. it does not have to be insane...maybe do one optional boss per dungeon on insane difficulty for the freaks but keep it at some lvl where we the player has to grow together with his class.
the main problem here is u need to keep players busy until you bring new content.
solutions so far:
make it easy but low drop rates so they have to farm it over and over and over again. problem here boring but everyone has the same chance.

make it hard so they have at least 1 week per boss...problem here bad players will never get any good items. in rl it is like this if u suck at soccer u dont score a goal... but in games ...bad players pay the same so they want items aswell...error. oh well dumb it down for them to some extent.
im still thinking of how to make it fair for good and bad players and still keep the challenge. actually one piece treasure cruise app game has an interesting approach.
make an very easy a medium and a very hard dungeon. all of them drop the same...just the hard ones drop with high percentage while the easy have really low percentage. wow tried the same with heroic just that some items only dropped in heroic so people needed heroic anyway so they made those easy aswell. i think.

5. proffessions. well i dunno mayn people are into this... and love a good crafting system...for me its mostly the same as grinding...i mean i was the first in burning crusade who built a 2h sword but still it felt like hard work and not like fun...
maybe make crafting more fun oriented? but for me sitting there 2h to fish for a potion ingredient or to hunt 100 boars for a rare pelt... or gather 200 ore mines for a crystal...never seemed fun yet it is part of every mmo for some reason. uhhm yes ask someone else about the crafting section

events has become a thing...nothing i ever enjoyed much aswell but the idea itself is a nice way to keep people busy.
i would probaly do limited time dungeons with exclusive skins for pvp you can trade but that only appear once a year. and many of them

once u have figured out those things make your plan as previously noted. because now u know better what you need.
do i need someone for the story? for the balancing? or is coding my problem?

and then u can just start. buy a world u like and models modify them or create them from scratch (lot of work and needs some skill or you hire someone)
i mean people here wrote you need server/networking to go online...and it costs or needs alot of knowledge.
that is certainly true but is it not the last step you take? i mean you can just create a single player game
there you can code everything except for raid boss balancing and pvp balancing. and there you just have to adapt some variables in general. or am i mistaken here? do you start coding it server based from the beginning? or is it possible to code as singleplayer and then just do the server stuff in the end?

of course then the last step is the hardest how to make the server stable how to do rolebacks how to make that localization works how to save characters and theyr inventory and so on. but unlike in a shooter you only have a rng check to see if you can cast hit.

and i think if you really make it that far and have an awesome prototype of your game already done its not gonna stop you. most stop way sooner...after modeling a weapon or two xD
and for the last wall it depends on how big you plan. for n mmo u need millions...so probably forget about it for now. but certainly you can start small with a mud game and gradually improve your game and grow if your idea is good and some gamers really love your concept.

i was a pro gamer before so my view is certainly not casual...and im studying programming only since 1 year so my knowledge is small when it comes to coding and yes it is hard work but all that goes to waste if you dont have a good concept first.

oh and i dont plan on a mmo myself. at least not yet. that comes later. it makes more sense to me to first study coding and then to start small. get to know what you do in a small area and then if you helped to produce some games you do it in large scale... but as a former pro i can say mmo's right now are all meh...so with some luck and kickstarter...but even then u need some sort of a fanbase from a mudgame that helps you promote your idea. and if you only start with one server for 50 people the paywall is not as high. then you can gradually expand and improve grafics and mechanics until you feel ready for the big leap of faith . but as me there are many gamers on the lookout for a mmo that finally is how they really want it to be. and a few got funded over kickstarter. but by veteran designers...and they did not turn out so well

 

The reason why people recommend to avoid trying to make an MMO is because it is very complex and very expensive. VERY expensive.

Encouraging people to make MMORPGs is not a good idea, because they'll almost certainly fail (winning a lottery is more likely). If you only started learning programming very recently, then you have no idea of the cost/complexity involved. It is comparable to "build your own spaceship from scratch".

 

I agree. That DEFINITELY used to be the case. Absolutely.

With the content and the tech available nowadays that is not so true any more, though. I was just saying to a friend of mine yesterday that I want to make a MiMORPG (Mini Multiplayer Online RPG) and just get rid of the Mini part later on. Start with a small open world (100 CCU from Photon) and once you start making some money, upgrade to a larger package etc). Networking has come a long way since 5 years ago and a lot of the challenges have been simplified via kits like UMMO, UMMORPG and Ultimate MMO Toolkit on the asset store (just as an example).

Heck here is one for only $10 where they supposedly only removed the world from a completed game and left you with the rest: RatSpell MMO Toolkit


I don't think for a second that one person can make a great MMO (or even complete a crappy one) all on their own EASILY... but hell, if you start while in high school, have your parents fed you and give you free accommodation so you have a few years to work on the project for free (minus asset purchases) I'm pretty sure one guy can pull it off with enough determination and elbow grease...

Others (like me) might have to take years to get started and then a lot more years to get it finished but can, in between other stuff, with enough determination and elbow grease release an MiMORPG and then work his way up to MMORPG... Super small chance of one guy doing it, very small chance of a small team of n00bs doing it but the odds just go up from there... In Unity2019 they will have a "3D, 2D or MMO" drop down on the new project creation screen...

In the old days or yore, not a chance... nowadays, a chance... in the very near future, everyone will be making MMOs... most likely using "retro" or "Low poly" or "Mobile ready" content because even though every phone will have a GPU that dwarves the then current GTX1290, mobile games will still not be able to handle 3D models that have more than 250 triangles.

Seriously, there is a greater chance of everyone and their dog making MMOs than there is of content developers stopping this downpour of pixel art 2D graphics and models that look crap so they can be called "mobile ready". The future is coming and speaking from experience, 5 years from now can become NOW faster than you think...

 

Networking is the least problematic and the least expensive aspect of an MMO. A couple thousand dollars a month for the necessary server hardware and backup solution is peanuts compared to the cost of actually creating the game and its assets.

Typical figures for developing an MMO are double digit millions of dollars. A single individual sponging off their parents for a few years wouldn't be sufficient because a single individual cannot create the content by themselves while simultaneously developing the other aspects of the project.

If it were truly possible don't you think the big corporations would already be doing it? Big studios are always ahead of indie developers when it comes to having access to the latest techniques and software. If it were doable they would already be doing it.

 

I have known single individuals who have made MMOs and they actually were quite popular. However, the work to maintain was a huge burden and they ended up closing down. It happens, but most likely these are not what you would think of as MMOs. 500 to 1000 players is more realistic for an indie MMO and unlike a single player game, it is never done until you pull it off the market.

 

//Opinion

MMOs go too fast. Before launch, or before you have a decent organic growth, you can take all the time in the world. But once the ball gets rolling, players have expectations and you need to retain all that you can to finance your activities. At that point, you'll have all kinds of issues showing up and you need to be confident that you know how to handle most of these beforehand.

It's too easy to say you'll deal with problems as they show. Reality is you don't really understand the complexity of an issue unless you have dealt with it in the past. You anticipate some of it. Industry veterans who have dealt with most development-related issues prior to a given MMO project are mandatory in order for things to work smoothly.

 

So you still fail miserably and enter the adult life with one hell of a disappointment due to having a dream crushed? If "you start while in high school", the project will most likely fail, even if it is not a MMO game - due to lack of experience.

There were few projects on a "small MMO scale" as in they support 75..500 players. Those are Neverwinter 1 (up to 500) and Neverwinter 2 (Up to 75 players theoretically, 35 if things needs to be stable).

The thing is, it was still a truckload of work. And the dude who necromanced this thread aims at WoW of all things.

2019 is only two years from now, so it is safe to assume this feature won't be there.
Typically unity seems to take a year or two after something is announced before it goes live.
For example, see how situation with progressive lightmapping went.

And the way I see it "Make a MMO" button is not even on the roadmap.

 

Consider this:
Assassins Creed had 250 people in total and took 5 years to make. Sure that cost them more than $50.
Crossy Roads took 2 guys 3 months. I think they made a return on their investment, if I remember correctly...

One of my beloved games from the original Xbox days was being redone for the XBO. After spending $10million on this glorified shooter Microsoft cut their losses when the studio said they simply CANNOT make the game for under $16million. Know why? Because they take client lunches where they spend $1000 on a lunch, pay their developer's moving costs and help them furnish their apartments, pay their staff enough money to drive the kind of cars that would make the Fast and Furious's cars look like entry model toys...

Given the game mechanics of that particular game, I could have easily done that game on my own in a matter of months. If not for wanting custom characters and just using the ones on the asset store, the entire game would have cost around $500 + how much I pay the guys who do the CGI cutscenes. That's that. run around, throw exploding projectiles at the other guy in the scene and watch as the environment crumbles around you. There is the entire game.

Just because one or two games cost $30 billion to make doesn't mean that every single game that follows must meet or exceed the budget of the game before it in order to be successful. Like Tella said, she knows of individuals who actually did it... but had to close it down. that just proves the point that it CAN be done.

Who says you have to spend $50 million on making a game that 100 people can play together using all those simple characters created by Synty Studios? I.e. Simple Apocalypse. Combine it with all the other "low poly" stuff out there and you have a truckload of assets at your disposal for peanuts.

It all depends on what you want to do. One guy, in High School, trying to topple WoW... feel free to point your finger and laugh at him. I will back you!
I guy wanting to make something simple, can't see why it will need double figure millions to do...

Hell, there was this one company once who wanted to do something simple and so they created Minecraft. I don't know if you've ever heard of the game but apparently it's not doing too poorly. Personally, I don't like it, though, and never play it... but those guys managed to take S*** and make people love it more than their spouses!

Nobody plays games because it cost a fortune to make. People play it because it is fun. If you can make it fun then you are golden... Here's an idea...

Do a 3D remake of a game similar to Streets of Rage or Double Dragon. The entire town is open to travel through and as many people who wants to can join. Every person you kill before you get killed counts as your score. So make a game that never ends where players can just walk around and beat the crap out of a never ending supply of opponents. They get to upgrade themselves and become stronger the longer they last and eventually they can become so strong that they become boss characters and have to contend with multiple people attacking them. Drop in an array of weapons and introduce a new character every now and then...

100 characters walking around an open world, collecting power ups, who have something to do while there and make it fun for them to kick the S*** out of others... The collecting of stuff and the upgrades make it an RPG, otherwise it can be considered an MMO Beat Em Up... but why the heck not?

Hell, do it with 2D graphics if you want... Who says Double Dragon Online HAS to be 3D? It CAN be done, it HAS been done, it WILL be done again... will it succeed? Most likely not... until it does. And then all the internet will blow up over how this MMO was created for $500 and this kid is richer than Bill Gates and hasn't even lost his baby teeth yet. Just watch how every single 10 year old with a 12 year old PC is gonna start releasing crap MMOs just because it can be done and they too want to be billionaires.

Cost is only a concern to those with money. Those without money are forced to focus on what is REALLY important: Making a game that is fun

 

You have noooooooo idea why games cost a lot to make at all, dude.

 

I will agree with all of you on one thing, no argument or sarcasm:
Getting it made is one thing and YES, sorting out the problems... unless you have the experience, you won't know which way is up or down and you will most likely fail. Hard.

I am not attempting to say that everyone will make a successful game and get away with it. I myself will probably fail hard with my intention of making it small and if it become successful enough to warrant upgrading my CCU and if it becomes more popular then quitting everything else and focussing on how to make the game work, adding staff and jut doing what it takes...

My argument is simply this: It can be DONE.
My argument is not that you will succeed and become the next world power with the country you will buy with your earnings.
...and as I said, thinking you can compete with WoW as your first attempt, that is just laughable.

...but the "Make my MMO" button... Watch me, it's coming
I might be off with the date, but its coming... ( and in case you missed it, I'm trying to be real funny on this point )

 

You all DO realise I go out of my way to make all my examples extreme overkill and that I am not all about being 100% accurate about my example's figures right? Billionare with baby teeth? 1 game costing 30 billion...

I'm arguing "nothing is impossible". The response is "only people with truckloads of money can make successful games. Otherwise, why hasn't everyone made successful games?"

MMO's are without a doubt the hardest genre to target but, hey, to each their own. If you pick up a book on C# on Monday, decide to make WoW 2 on Wednesday and by Saturday you live a life of crushed dreams as you failed at making an MMO on your own as your first ever foray into games development... well then good riddance and lucky all of us. Clearly that was not a person who was gonna make AAA games so we are not loosing out on anything.

Seriously? Do people really think they are going to become game devs and quit after their first failure? Guess there must be... but I totally disregard their existence. I have a host of simpler games that I have planned while on my way to doing my MMO but the sole reason for me WANTING to make an MMO is the sheer challenge behind it. It is for this very reason why I don't use any of the kits I mentioned above. I want to do it on my own or not at all... if it takes me a year or 3 more decades, I don't care. It can be done, I will do it and that is that. It will either fail miserably and never even get 5 CCU or it will enjoy mild success for a short while and then my dream was realised... or it will topple WoW and I will make enough money to hire industry veterans to deal with the complexities I can't even begin to foresee right now. (again with the overkill examples, in case anyone was still wondering)

 

Making an MMO is like making a dozen games at once. It is possible, of course, but it is slow. You also will learn a lot doing it though. Really though, most of the game development is the same as with single player games. The huge world......you really won't need it unless you are successful..exactly like a single player open world.

The big difference is the networking. If you can do that, then you can build an MMO. Again though, the work seems to go on and on and on. The game we are making now is my second experience with building MMOs and while it is so much fun, it also feels endless. lol

I like to say MOG as the massively part is so subjective. I just ignore that part.

 

It's been nearly seven years since you first started this thread. Did you complete a MMORPG in that time?

 

You greatly underestimate complexity and amount of trouble you are going to run into with any game.

If you didn't do it, then you couldn't do it.

I wouldn't laugh, because it ain't funny. It is sad. Basically the dude in question would be pretty much trying to learn to fly by flapping his arm very fast, just because someone told him to "believe in himself" or some other nonsense like that.

I saw it many times - people think that "the world is theirs" or some other nonsense, boldy start with their ambitious project and then fail miserably. Happens most of the time, actually. If someone just wants to tinker with a network code for fun, it is one thing, but trying to take out WoW alone in a high school is a waste of time (that could be better spent on other things) and nothing more.

 

Oh Tella... if only I didn't have so much other stuff going on I so wish I could join you and work on an MMO with someone.... Sigh... lol

I totally agree with every single thing you just said. So nice to meet someone I don't have to try and convince of the way I think

But seriously, though, my way of writing makes me come off as stand-offish and my examples tend to make me sound like an idiot; combined the two makes it easy to turn a conversation into a battle as people get the impression that I think they are idiots. The simple fact of the matter is that I have 2 golden rules that I live by and that I teach my students:
1. Nothing is impossible. If it can't be done, find a way
2. A program will never do what you want it to but it will always do what you tell it to.

The second one is not real relevant here but the first, combined with my love of a programming challenge, I simply can't agree with anyone who says anything code related is impossible. It is only the coder who is not capable, but anything can be done. That has been my philosophy for the past 20 years and I am sticking to it.

I don't know everything about everything and my game will most likely fail but I am still gonna give it my best shot and I greatly respect you for doing so also! Ganbatte!

I think that wraps up what I have to say on this matter so I will end my opinions and input here. Hope my input provokes some thought but from here on out I will leave the rest of the discussion to the rest of the participants. (I actually only came to this thread, originally, to unfollow it lol)

 

Failure only happens if you don't learn anything at all from the experience. I tell my team that if we fail, we will have a very cool single player game instead. We are already talking about the next game. lol Ganbaro!

 

Those kind of beliefs are not very good, in my opinion.
There ARE things that absolutely can't be done no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try. It is important to recognize those things and separate them from ideas that are within realm of possibility.

A good example of "impossible" would be "Visit another galaxy and return back during your lifetime". Or, a more realistic example: "rewrite Windows OS alone from scratch in one month". Same thing.

 

Ouch. That burned
That would shut anyone up lol

But to answer your question, no... I haven't even completed the sample projects I wanted to do by combining my own kits... I've been kept so busy with other people's projects that I haven't had time to even update my own work for nearly 2 years now. I only recently got back into that racket and in fact, after I hit send I am getting back to doing that... It's been 7 years (wow, that long, huh?)... it might take 27 more. See above.

@neginfinity
You sound like a real sincere person as I read your replies. Respect. Again, though, I go overboard in my examples to really drive my point home. I find it hard to place myself in other people's shoes. I think like me. I thrive on challenge and love doing what I am told can't be done. Failure to me means 'What have I learned from this?" and then I move on and do it right or I do something else while being better than I was before. Failure does not scare me, it encourages me. No coding practice is ever a waste of time if you leaned from it.

Clearly, I am not most people. :/
Consider it my way of the ninja.
K, anyone else have anything to say to me directly, please PM me. I'm off this thread. Ganbatte

 

I was actually curious. Seven years seems like a reasonable amount of time to create a simple MMORPG single-handed.

 

So many words.

Anyone can create an MMO, the real challenge is making enough content to keep people playing.

 

Large companies take years. 7 years for 1 person would be amazing, depending on the size.

 

I've just set out to do that myself, and actually the reason why I started learning Unity is to make my MMORPG, well, someday.

Fortunately, I know a bit of programming and I usually don't have much problem with technical stuffs. And I don't really intend to make money with it, so I don't care if it'd be commercially viable or not. I just want to create a MMORPG which suits my preferences, and will be happy if I could find a few players who agree with my vision.

I chose MMORPG, because I'm quite good at programming but not so in creative part. Even if I can somehow manage to get all the design resources my game needs, there'd be the problem of voice acting, scripts (I'm not a native speaker of English) and etc. So, I just plan to make a MMORPG sandbox and let other talented people to provide the contents.

The biggest problem I have so far is time, since I have another full time job and I'm already 40 years old. But at least I don't have any time constraints, so maybe, I might be able to do that in next 10 years, I hope.