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How much we can ask for a non-game app per year subscription or perpetual?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AlanMattano, Oct 5, 2018.

?

How much we can ask for a non-game app perpetual or per year subscription?

This poll will close on Jan 5, 2027 at 7:23 PM.
  1. 10.000 usd

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 5.000 usd

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. 1.000 usd

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 500 usd

    22.2%
  5. 200 usd

    66.7%
  6. 100 usd

    33.3%
  7. 50 usd

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 20 usd

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 10 usd

    11.1%
  10. 5 usd

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    I wish to sell my App [link] but I do not have any idea of how to prize it.
    Start hi and then go down?

    I was thinking 500~200$ Usd and then move the price down to 20$ Usd

    Here is a video for a draft game prize estimation and how prize are going down.


    What do you think?
     
  2. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    If you plan on lowering the price to $20, why would anyone pay... more than that?
     
  3. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Thanks, @Murgilod if you can vote, helps me and others reading this thread.
    Is a good point. I read some start-up engineer books: Lowering the prize long years workes well if is a hi quality product. If the product is draft and with bad finish quality the technic is to start low and push the prize up, specially where there is more competition.
    I need some external feedback on the starting price. Thanks you so much
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  4. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I actually voted for $200 because this is clearly software designed with a pretty niche market in mind and that market can probably serve to pay a little bit more. It looks to be very in depth and with very particular use cases in mind. While a lower price might bring in some sales, odds are that a $200 price tag will bring you the best return.
     
  5. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    Whats the target audience? I can't see this being of interest to commercial entities who use stuff like Altair HyperWorks:




    BUT it could be interesting for model making community. I have a connect in this industry (owner of multiple shops and websites), please reach out via PM and I'll see if I can get you in touch with them.
     
    Ryiah and angrypenguin like this.
  6. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    An interesting thought was mentioned in another thread a while back. Businesses tend to avoid software and services that are unusually inexpensive compared to the competition. Udemy, for example, typically sells their tutorials for an affordable price but then proceed to list a much larger price that is slashed out.

    That price, according to the theory in the post, is what a business would see when looking at Udemy courses.

    If there is any accuracy to this theory then driving the cost of your product from a normal price (for the competition) down to a ridiculously low price (way lower than your competition) may very well drive businesses away from you rather than to you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  7. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    You are really asking in the wrong place. Try out an aerospace engineering forum or similar.

    It wouldn't surprise me if there is no market for this tool at all.
     
  8. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    This.

    What problem are you solving? Who is it a problem for? What is your solution worth to them?

    Without that info all anyone can do is make a generic guess.
     
    Socrates, AlanMattano and Ryiah like this.
  9. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Yee... Rc, Soaring and popular aviation, in general, is in agony dying slowly.

    These are nice questions! it keeps me focused. So happy that you have asked them.
    Actually, Xfoil is very complex to use, unstable and difficult for the creation of a new airfoil or modification of the existing one. Especially if you are a new user the Xfoil interface has a slow learning curve via repeating console inputs. Other 2D CFD tools are full of useful tools but with a slow UI when the operator tries to modify the airfoil shape and compare the results. Some software let you only build the airfoil shape and other only inspect the aerodynamic characteristics. Was missing an airfoil editor tool that allows the designer to build and modify on the fly the airfoil searching for the aerodynamic characteristics in real-time.

    DAD is for making Sails and hydrofoils, fins and foils for windsurfing, surf and kite. For general experimental aviation, ultralight and soaring LD efficiency. For RC and free-flight modellers trying to reduce drag at low Reynolds number (Re). For professionals prototyping of airfoils before testing in a real expensive wind tunnel. For industrial designers searching new airfoils for fan blades. Ailerons, wing and spoilers for car industry can improve downforce lift by searching for a better airfoil. For new aspiring aeronautical engineers and novice Xfoil users that do not want to deal with that complex console intercase hard to understand with poor visual feedback.

    DAD is an airfoil editor tool that allowed the foil designer to move control points using the mouse of a bézier curve to modify wing section, launch the Xfoil 2D CFD solver with one click and look to the result all in the same window. So that in less than a second the designer can obtain the coefficients results of the new shape. If there is no improvement, is simple to rever the airfoil shape to the best previous result. And, when the research is finished, is possible to convert, save or fast export the airfoil shape in a standard ".DAT" format. It is possible to make a screenshot and use it in a presentation.

    Thanks @Ryiah ! Usually I tend to give for free but in this case, I will keep that in mind!! I wish to keep this up in businesses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  10. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Your answer to "who is it a problem for?" is given in a different context to the other two questions.

    The problem you're solving is "existing tools have poor user interfaces". But when you said who it's a problem for, you just generically listed people who design aerofoils. Among people who design aerofoils, who finds the UI of their existing software to be a problem?
     
    AlanMattano likes this.
  11. LurkingNinjaDev

    LurkingNinjaDev

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    This whole conversation should have happened _before_ the development cycle. The who is this for, what kind of features they need, how much they tend to pay for such features are planning questions, not sales questions.
     
  12. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Yes, In general, I do and follow marketing development guide.
    But in this case, when you know what is missing in your workflow, you create tools fast, by instinct, that fills that gap and resolve those particular problems. And then, marketing ask you a lot of explanations!!! LOL

    This tool came out naturally in the process of making a new Soaring Simulator as a plugin that was missing out there. I'm elaborating the answers right now thanks to you, useful to push them later into the website page. thanks!

    @angrypenguin a second attempt very bad draft answer can be:

    Who is it a problem for?
    Aspiring aeronautical engineers and aerodynamic novice users that do not want to deal with complex "Xfoil" console interface. And instead, wish for smart visual feedback in one simple clean interface. For those who believe that current existing software UIs have complex interfaces that are rich but incomprehensible, complex to learn, slow or simply inefficient.

    Who is this for?
    For Engineers or Industrial Designers in the hydrodynamic and aerodynamic field that needs more speed in the production workflow and often compare and search for better airfoil characteristics in a fast working environment.

    For those who need to draw a particular smooth profile curve and converter it to .dat before importing them into the traditional software.

    For those professionals that are looking for a less expensive airfoil prototyping tool before testing them in a real expensive wind tunnel. Useful for how wants to jump wind tunnel iterations or how do not have an access to a real wind tunnel.


    What kind of features do they need?
    • Xfoil fast simple small interface for Re, angles, turbulence, etc…
    • A simple tool for simple tasks.
    • Speed: Fast iteration between modifications to contain anxiety.
    • Ai can help to achieve better goals without using operator time in front of the monitor.
    • Better Visual feedback:
    • Big coefficient charts to inspect the results and history.
    • Hi-density information in a simple interface for one monitor users.
    • Use of VR interface for getting more dpi information.
    • Big buttons simple to click that display information and warnings.
    • Exciting appealing clean and nice futuristic interface.
    • Making curved shapes from scratch using Bézier curves.
    • Modification of parametric curves in an intelligent way using control points.
    • Control points movement in tangent to the relevant task without losing smoothness.
    • Modification of the edges angles, thickness and thickness position.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  13. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    None of which hang out here. I'm the closest thing we have to a traditional engineer, and I work in chemical manufacturing. Literally the only advice we can offer is to google similar software, and show you the prices for that.
     
  14. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    So, how much is a solution to that problem worth to those people?

    This is a pretty nebulous question. Two broad ways to approach it are:
    • Consider how much your solution "saves" them in terms of money, time, resources.
    • Consider how much new "value" your solution gives them, in terms of increased quality, speed, comfort, etc.
    Past that super generic advice... as @Kiwasi says, I'm not your audience so can't provide any specific feedback.
     
  15. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    You're asking the wrong people. Generally speaking, we only know about games, which this is not. The people who will want this tool probably think very differently from the average gamer, both in terms of the way they evaluate the product and what they will pay for it.

    I would ask this kind of question on RC aircraft forums, hobby aeronautical forums, sailing dinghy racing forums, alternative energy (wind) forums, and so on. Anywhere where the people there might be dabbling in creating something involving airfoils.
     
    AlanMattano and Kiwasi like this.
  16. ChazBass

    ChazBass

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    I used to work at The MathWorks (maker of MATLAB) and I just did some checking. So an aerospace toolbox set, plus MATLAB and Simulink (and needed toolboxes like Optimization) is going to run you abou $20K per year. I did find a few very specific third party MATLAB airfoil design tools that run from free to a few hundred dollars. I know nothing about those other tools you mention above, but I I think the pricing spectrum you face is that range: 0$ for something from some guy hawking software on the web (in this case on the MATLAB Exchange web site) hoping to I make money off of consulting, up to an industry standard solution (like The Mathworks tool set).

    The challenge for you is credentials I think. If someone buys a tool/toolset from The Mathworks, for example, the credentials of the company and its well known engineers in the field are standing behind the product. The random guy on the internet may have a good tool, but not the credentials necessarily to back it up. And it would seem to me (the ignorant guys who knows nothing about aerospace or airfoils) that a slick user interface alone, probably won't win you any business unless you have the credentials to back up the program behind the interface so that people can trust the output.

    So, I would suggest you answer the question of where your credentials put you on that pricing spectrum and go from there.
     
  17. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    This is something that I am struggling with myself. My project is in a niche area and is a bit unique so there are not direct comparables.

    After looking at your video, I just realized that your program is just the interface for Xfoil, correct? That makes a difference in pricing. Also xfoil is GPL licensed software. Your program looks like a combined program with Xfoil which may mean it needs to be GPL licensed as well. This is not possible if you developed your program in Unity. I don't know the technicalities of this but you will want to make sure that you are compliant with the xfoil license.
     
  18. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Yes

    No: Xfoil is GPL licensed -> Yes. Read Drela and GPL licenses.
    Anyway, you can do what you want with Drela code if is good for humanity. DAD contains a [RUN Digital Wind Tunnel] button that is the actual interface to Xfoil. All that is in subfolder Assets/StreamingAssets/GPL software folder as for example Xfoil contain the GPL license. In other subfolders, there is other software with different licenses. And the Drela, later GPL licenses allowed a lot of things. And the jurisdiction for each license covers that particular folder where it seats and same software subfolders. No way up. If you think that the license is tree up then, all the software in the world has multiple licenses. Internet>OS-Windows>Programs>Installer>Updater>Unity>DAD>Xfoil
     
  19. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    Your answer suggests that you do not understand the GPL. The folder that the software is in does not matter.
     
  20. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    GPL does allow non GPL software to interact with GPL software, as long as they are treated as separate programs. Technically there is no reason why this can't be done with unity developed software as well. You can't integrate GPL software into Unity software. But you can allow them to talk to one another.

    One would assume this is the approach that the OP has taken.
     
  21. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    I don't think that you can assume that. Just having the programs in separate directories does not satisfy the GPL. This question in the FAQ looks to be relevant:

    By that reading, if his program is sending the complex input data into xfoil and then receiving complex data back, it may not be GPL compliant.
     
  22. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Agreed.

    You can build this thing GPL compliant. Or you can build it non GPL compliant. Without diving into the OPs actual product, I don't have enough information to make a call either way.
     
  23. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    I would try look into academic area too. For example student licences.
    Why not start price low and go up if app gets traction?

    But as said, I also don't think it is best forum for getting best answer to such question.
     
  24. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    GPL is a license
    you mean Give each file the proper copyright notices?
    The user can download and install Xfoil where he/she wants. But for using DAD need to sign and respect a contract.

    I became a Dad this month. And There is so little time. This forum is fast for me and good enough.
    Student licences? DAD will be included in FSS (for students) as a plugin probably with fewer options but free or little cost. A low price and go up is a good market penetration technic in a very difficult environment where the competition is strong. Or when you have a good gold of community growing spirit. I love giving things for free. As soon as I can in good stable versions. I love Unity approach example!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018 at 2:12 AM
  25. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    This question is relevant too.
    This one may be relevant if the other program is accessed through an API.
     
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  26. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    That's what I was looking for but only quickly scanned through the questions. Thanks.
     
  27. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Correct me if I'm wrong.

    The Drela intention was to give Xfoil software free. The GPL born as a license and was attached to it later. The intention of Drela was a free software that others can develop it improve it and modify it giving the commertial right (
    World Heritage
    ) . Not how other claim a cancer restriction that eats other development. Imagine if Xfoil and GPL are in my brain at some point in the future. My brain is not owned by MIT software and became open source. And I think this is the reason:

    The GPL is a License, a unilateral permission made by one side: "an authorization to..." do something.
    As a developer, the copyright low allowed my rights to make code. Copyright protection is granted automatically
    A License can claim my copyright but in case of DAD, the low protect me as the author and developer of my own code work (in this case DAD not Xfoil). As a freelancer, I own my two types of copyright (Intelectual=I'm the author and commercial=I can sell it or make it for general public use). BuenosAires 1933 copyright law from 1853 probably a copy of English tradition or maybe common law and BsAs1940s universal agreement and universal law.

    So the GPL is under the law jurisdiction and incapable of stilling my own work (DAD). But is capable or not of giving the second type of right (commercial type). In this case, Xfoil is "public".

    Vr 1 After 20Yr it became of public domain like other inventions unless someone has pasomeoneother 20yr.



     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018 at 12:05 AM
  28. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    The GPL is commonly referred to as a viral license because of the way the license automatically spreads itself when code licensed under the GPL interacts with code not licensed under the GPL. Just as an example if I write code that links to GPL code my code will now be GPL too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_license
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018 at 8:49 PM
  29. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    I am sorry but it is really hard to understand what your point is because of your English and spelling. The issue is that xfoil is licensed by the GPL. It is not public domain. If you are going to include xfoil with your software you must be compliant with the license or you do not have the right to distribute it. If you do not include it in your software but your users need to download it, then they need to be compliant with the license.

    Whether your use of the program is compliant or not depends on how your program interfaces with xfoil. We do not know that and thus we don't know if you are being compliant.

    Your writing suggests that you do not understand the license or the issue. The issue isn't whether xfoil is stealing your copyright. You cannot license your program under the GPL because Unity licensing is not compatible. The issue is whether your use of xfoil is compliant with their license. If you are not, you are not allowed to use xfoil as part of your software.
     
    Ryiah and Kiwasi like this.
  30. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Yes sorry my baby was crying and I hit replay by accident to the draft. Sorry for the long and bad answer!
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018 at 9:32 PM
  31. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    To understand GPL power we need and understand the local and universal law in first place.[Do not read it I will resume it later]

    Think about what you are saying and be aware and conscious of how dangerous this is. If you write code and you run it, if in the system itself there a single GPL then you lose automatically your rights as the author. And yes is what the FSF is claiming. So If Windows run Xfoil via Unity, DAD then Windows, Unity and DAD lose the commercial rights and became under FSF domain.

    No: They can claim that but under Italian, french argentinian and other law, nobody can steal your rights [comertial right in this way]. A unilateral licence is not a Contract mutual agreement.

    In other words, the authors' rights are two: Moral and Commercial
    The moral right is not in the discussion because is irrevocable "inescindible". The author will be always the author of it.
    The commercial right or commercial law or Property law is in discussion here.{Diritto Patrimoniale}{Derecho comencial} what we can do with it ownership and tenancy. Let's call here for short the "commercial right" instead of "ownership" because you can sell the "ownership".
    How is the owner of this commercial right?
    For Xfoil was Drela the owner. He makes universal distribution via the website giving the "commercial right" or the "ownership".
    Under the Italian law, he is giving the commercial right. So FSF is not the owner nor MIT. Xfoil is patrimonio de la humanidad and probably also by Convenzione di Berna.
    MIT is the owner if MIT has a contract where explicitly say that all student or professors work automatically goes to MIT. If so, is a BAD practice and shame on you. But some University like IED asks me to sign that contract.
    So adding later GNU General Public License means that probably the MIT is the owner of "commercial right" but is selling or giving away the ownership of the contract of ownership. MIT is the owner but gives away or selling the contract administration of the product. Here I'm losing control of my words. And in that type of (US-NY)contract {the GPL1} has the capacity to pick up all what it tachs like a virus that pick up gold. Now Germany accepts the GPL contract in court. but Germany is not EU. That is the reason probably why Unity as you told me do not want it in it.
    If I'm not correct please let me know.

    What I'm doing at the moment is to:
    DAD does not contain Xfoil
    Xfoil is installing by the user
    DAD calls via console Xfoil.exe
    And read the results when finished. Like windows do.
     
  32. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    Again, I am having a really hard time trying to figure out what you are saying for most of your post.

    This looks good so far with respect to compliance.

    What exactly is it reading and how?
     
    AlanMattano likes this.
  33. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I'm going to take this advice and apply it to the majority of your post.

    Because this is the only part that truly matters and if you had understood the GPL FAQ entries (which it's very clear you did not) you would known this is perfectly fine. You only have the potential for problems with the GPL if you try to bundle a non-GPL program with a GPL program or if you have non-GPL code that is linked to GPL code.

    Windows, and other OSes, are fine for a completely different reason. The GPL (both v2 and v3) have clauses that make it permissible to use proprietary system libraries.

    https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#SystemLibraryException
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 PM
    AlanMattano likes this.
  34. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Sorry, @Ryiah @GoesTo11 for taking your time and if I was not good, precise or compact.
    Yes, clearly I do not understand the GPL.
    I'm changing diapers and to finish this in a constructive way:

    How can I make this work?

    Ryiah, I do not know if this is perfectly fine. looks like is a "borderline". @GoesTo11 what do you think? When Xfoil calls, DAD freeze and later DAd reads the Xfoil output .txt file.
     
  35. GoesTo11

    GoesTo11

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    Assuming that you are only passing command line parameters to run xfoil, it looks completely fine.
     
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  36. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    To be sure, Here I put the code