How Much Does A Game Developer Entry Level Really Makes?

It's actually standard practice in any of the higher tech industries. I signed a contract as a paper boy that didn't have an IP clause. But everything since then has include something along the lines of 'All IP developed during your time with company XXX remains the property of company XXX'.

This was the case at analytical labs, working for the university, and in chemical manufacturing.

Now the courts have demonstrated that these clauses are only enforceable if the IP is related to your work. So my company has no claim to my games or novels. But they could claim if I developed some novel piping system in my off time.

This gets more complicated if I use work property. If I used a work PC to develop a hit game they might actually be able to claim for it.

 

Did it have a clause that prevented you from delivering the papers of your competitor at the same time as theirs?

 

Well it makes perfect sense in professional tech fields, otherwise small companies could never get ahead on new fronts. Bigger companies would just swipe your employees when things started getting ripe.

Don't underestimate the value of someone who has been working on something for years on end ... the cost to a company (in terms of both time and money) for developing intellectual property can be huge, and a person or team who have gotten a 2 or 3 year head start on something that no one else has even been paying attention to - if their field of research suddenly appears very profitable - can be worth an unimaginable sum.

 

I thought I clearly was asking if I create a totally different game it will not go against non-compete contract because your different game is not competing against the same customers where you work with other studios? And I thought you are not allow to use your money that came from your workplace in the other studios, so you will need to fundraise your own money from kickstarter to make a game instead?
Maybe I was writing too short and too fast description before.

 

Whether or not your project goes against your non-compete/IP contract depends totally on how the non-compete/IP contract is written. Whether your non-compete/IP clauses are enforceable depends on the laws of your country. Personally, I would not rely on clauses being declared unenforceable in court.

Edit: and I've never heard of clauses restricting how you spend the money you make from a job.

 

I have a hard time finding out where did I find that information within over a year ago. But I think I remember finding this information from this youtube link a long time ago. https://www.youtube.com/user/HowToMakeMobileGames/videos . I am not so sure is his youtube channel reliable. This youtube channel also talks about startup business, because he also wish to be a startup as well.

Edit: Also some tips about money law that should be accurate. Is against by law, if your team used fan's fundraised money on something else.

 

Is there such thing as like, a game designer's union? I mean, I guess thats sorta what IDGA is supposed to be? I'm not sure

I just feel like (unless I misunderstand) that the whole point of unions is to stop these kind of ridiculous contracts and under-paying of employees and crappy work conditions

It's like, why would any programmer work on a game instead of pretty much anywhere else in the tech industry if they could make easily twice as much working anywhere else while also getting to work much easier hours, and getting paid for all of them!

 

I think it won't be game designer's union. But. it will be a regular government union like my old animation teacher said "the Canada government want to make internship or coop must get paid if their intern's piece of work is released to the public to make company profit." So the student can easily pay back the student loans. That was like two years ago but I think nothing have changed much.

 

IDGA does some of the things a Union does, like campaigning for better conditions. But its not a true union, you won't find it organizing industrial action or taking part in contract negotiations.

Individual countries have their own unions that cover the industry. Games are typically covered by the same union that covers film, tv, art ect.

 

But I feel like games probably need their own Union. Film and TV people don't understand games, thats why they keep trying to make crappy game movies.

But beyond that, clearly we need to protection if people are signing some of these insane contracts they are, because they don't have anyone who has their back. It just seems very unfortunate that these contracts are even allowed to happen in the first place.

 

Go make one then.

But realize that Unions need a certain critical size before they can do anything. Globally games is still a pretty small industry. And that means that in many individual centers the number of game devs is small.

Plus many of the same people are working in game dev and film anyway. So sharing a union makes sense.

 

like film vfx unions have been doing so great... >.<

i remember a while ago this: https://thebillfold.com/why-there-w...testing-at-the-oscars-aea5cf822697#.m9bpxba64

they've got it really bad in that industry... constant job flipping, poor wages, long hours and failed businesses while producers and such get the recognition and spoils.

not sure a union is the solution.

 

Are you sure that article supports your post? It literally states that "every other film trade has a dedicated union that defines how overtime can work, how high wages should be, whether work can get sent abroad. VFX artists don’t, leading to awful hours and late pay".

 

Well, first, that isn't really true. Engineers in the game industry certainly can get paid well, it depends on the level and where you work. Certainly there are low paying and entry level positions, but that is the same anywhere. Second, you can't compare one field to the entirety of the general skill set. There are many software engineering jobs that pay, on average, less. And many that, on average, pay more. All will be affected by the market for your skillset and the level you are at. A senior graphics engineer at Naughty Dog will be making significantly more than a scripter hired at a kickstarter startup working on their first game. An front-end app engineer will make much less than an enterprise networking engineer at a financial institution.

And lastly, programming is not a completely interchangeable skill set. A highly skilled AI programmer isn't necessarily going to be able to jump into a network engineering job, at least not at remotely the same level. And vice-versa. It would be like saying a auto mechanic could make a lot more money by just switching to commercial jet repair.

An engineer can make a lot money in game development, with right (and desirable) abilities. Just like an engineer in any field. And the reverse is true.

 

it also says that in the state that their situation is in, it would be very difficult to get a union together to do anything about it... so I'm just not sure a union would fix anything, at least not right away... it could take years before anything would possibly have the potential to have a positive effect. It's a fact that subsidies by governments cause disruptions and add to a migratory situation for them.

So, 'just' having a union may not do much... something has to change though.

If a large number of game developers joined an international union, perhaps.. "if" that union had significant influence over many government policy changes. Otherwise a regional change would just cause that business to out-source it's labor... I would suspect.

 

I'm not sure an international union would do much. It would be to easy to break. The laws respecting unions in different countries are too divesre. And international industrial action isn't likely to acheive much.

Outsourcing labour has its own down sides and costs. Some businesses will do it, others won't.

Governmental policy changes are not likely to come as a result of the small segment that is games. But if you throw in film and digital media and call it the 'creative industries' you start to get big enough to get attention.

At least that's what is happening here in Melbourne. And it seems to be working fairly well for the local game dev industry.

 

Supply & demand is right as greggtwep16 puts it.

In DK one of the banks have pretty much specialised in pickin up burnt-out gamedevs and setting them up with internal dev gigs. They're cruising around in fancy cars now

Similarly there's a pricing war going on in the UK between freelancer agencies which with CPH living expenses pretty much closes the UK market for me.

 

I think Extra Creditz is sometimes like a small union as well. Because they sometimes talking about trying to solve game working conditions, and some game schools that does not really fullfill job reqirements.
https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz

 

A union would just kill startups and small studios, i have already seen small vfx studios die to unions here. The problem of crappy wages, ridiculous contracts and crunch time won't go away, till the supply of people willing to work under such conditions goes away.

 

I get that it seems to be quite common but there are exceptions for sure. Each company I have worked at has not had such a thing. Well I take that back. The last big corporation I worked for did have that agreement.... I could not work for a competing Consulting agency for one year after quitting my job. I simply told them up front yeah that is not going to fly. If I am not working here then I need to be working somewhere. And it definitely is not up to you where I am working, who I am working for or what I am doing if I am not here, right? How much will you be paying for my retainer fee all of this time that I am not supposed to be working in my industry? The guy simply laughed and said well we don't need you to sign that.

So, I think most folks out there have enough brain to realize that it is a real a-hole kind of move to ask someone to do that. When you spell it right out for them. I worked for that company for 8 years. Was a great place. My current company never had such a contract to begin with.

I do see that yes every company gets a little terrified that a person can go out and work for a competitor or even start their own business and become a new competitor. But that's just the way it is. That is completely normal. The way to avoid such things is to treat your employees very well so they don't leave to begin with. Or at least if they do leave to have made such a positive impression on them they don't think about trying to screw you over.

That I'd completely agree with. People shouldn't be using their employer's hardware and software nor their employer's time to work on personal projects. Although admittedly there are times that I have thought about game dev during my workday I have never actually worked on any of my personal projects during work hours. That is their time. I'm already being rewarded for not working on my own stuff in the form of pay.

I'd agree with the notion that anything I developed during my day job work hours (which does not include lunch break unless I am using their equipment) belongs to my employer.

 

I need to give others the benefit of a doubt moreso.

However, reading English which is obviously spelled and punctuated incorrectly and very obviously is one thing. Yet when someone manages to do it correctly but still won't put the words in a logical order with run-on sentences is a complete mindf*** for most people (including myself).

I don't want to lecture you on English, that's not my business, but please try to put words in a logical order!!

You have my apologies if this is rude but its not a pleasure to try to read a block of poorly written text!

As for the discussion...

IMO there's many clever things companies do to prevent unionization of workers these days. From "buying out" new workers by encouraging them not to join a union through one legal means of coercion or another, to operating small workforces which have little hope of achieving anything by going on strike.

IE. Mcdonalds. They typically have fewer than 150 workers at any given time. How are they supposed to go on strike when their jobs are so basic anyone could do them? Any strike would be pointless because believe it or not those jobs would be filled in a few weeks at worst. These restaurants are always located in busy areas of a given city. If they were factories with thousands of workers in a small city then going on strike may be an option because its not easy to find people in that small city which would be able to fill all those positions.

Really instead of relying on old means of getting fairer conditions and payment I think the workers of today should try new things. The companies which operate workplaces are always thinking of new ways to both screw the worker and get around unionization and workers well being.

The same goes for the game dev industry. Conditions suck. The pay sucks (relatively). There are way too many people who want those jobs. Its just like Mcds, if we all quit one day an army of eager people would move in to take those jobs. There has to be other ways of achieving fairer conditions.

I think for one thing a social campaign (not entirely social media) to advertise the conditions and comparable job pay would be perfect. Discourage others from wanting to work there by showing them the truth. As workers we can use those tools employers use against them. The main problem is too many people want these jobs, and these jobs offer poor pay and work-life balance. Those can be used as discouragement to potential employees.

Its really a game of cat and mouse...

 

I was asking two different questions only that can be a bit hard and confusing to answer. I think I will need to add a introduction to my question to show out what I am asking about. In case it is too hard for others to understand. I do sometime agree that I have too many run on sentences. Hopefully my rewording will be more clear now, because this time I have spend more time writing.

1. I was asking about the non compete contract if I want to be a startup. If I sign their non compete contract from the other studio, I cannot really make a game to compete my workplace in that other studio. So, my question is "When I made a totally different game that is targeting the other consumer. Will it be still against the non compete contract, because my company is not competing their customers?"

2. I have heard that there is such things as the money law that depends where the money came from illegally. For example, in this video link. It shows that their team is not allow to spend their fan's fundraised money to purchase something else that is not related on developing your games. Such as you cannot use fan's fundraised money to purchase drinks.

So, I was thinking... If I sign their non compete contract from the other studio. "Will I go against the non compete contract, if I have developed my own game company by using my own money. Which that money is coming from my workplace in the other studio?"
Two years ago, I think I have heard from an other Youtuber saying this can be true, if the contract have written this kind of money law.

 

if that was such it would not hold up in court. Having it defined how you are allowed and not allowed to use your money is pretty BS, and has call back to the idea of the "company store".

 

lol Ark distributed the Jurassic Park theme song along their files at some point, seen it, had it lol
.. not sure if the word got out or not... dont think so? most people modding it at that time were probably real fanboys of the game.
(there was a modding contest while back)

someone attempting to sabotage or something??? (idk thats what i thought.. found it odd)
suppose they used the song as a placeholder during development??
anyway, it was distributed .. although, i suppose for free.. but still..

 

Also depends if we are talking big established AAA studios, or small Indie outfits.

Expect the latter to pay minimum wages, or even below that (for example here in switzerland I have heard the few Indies working in the country that they couldn't even afford paying minimum wage...)

Games are sold for the same price on the global market no matter where they are produced, which results in a wage dumping mentality (which is not meant to critizise it, I can understand that Studios have to make every buck count they spend on development). And in studios evading the more expensive countries and cities like the plague. Might not be true for the bigger AAA studios, IDK.
At least here in Switzerland (which is most probably one of, if not THE most expensive country to live in in the world), we have 0 big studios, no established dev which REALLY built up a smaller studio in the country (Ubisoft once planned to, never heard about it since), and just some few Indies trying to make a living. I wouldn't be surprised if the high cost of labour and infrastructure would be the main factor why it is that way.

So it really also depends on the country you are looking at too. The lower the average wage, the more I would expect the average wage of game developers to fall in line with other industries.

 

If you are being paid less then minimum wage, stop. Report the practice to the appropriate authorities. Accepting less then minimum wage legitimizes the practice, and harms everyone.

 

Yes, but many startups could close shop immidiatly if they had to pay minimum wage.

Should those startups exist if they cannot pay more? Are they being mismanaged? Are people being taken advantage off? I think we can discuss that all. Fact is, not many companys start off with huge coffers lined with enough cash to pay their employees. Arguably, in these cases its more appropriate to say "at least those guys get paid". Many have to work for free when getting into a start up.

Now, the thing is these guys have a point. If the minimum wage in a country is so high that you cannot really start up a business in a certain industry, the minimum wage should be lowered. Of course that isn't possible without the cost of living coming down, which in the end is a hen and egg problem.
But the fact remains: you want an industry in a country that has to sell its products on a hypercompetitive global market with thin margins, competing with guys developing in easter europe and india? Well, either forget about that minimum wage, or forget about having this industry in your country.

I am all for employee protection. And I don't think just abandoning the minimum wage or lowering it for a single industry is solving the main problem. But the real problem here is not the low wages. Its the high cost of living.


The few guys working in switzerland for such low wages are basically accepting below minimum wage to be able to work in the industry they love without having to work abroad. Given the nearest game development hubs is an 8 hour train ride away in germany, maybe not such a good idea. Then again, I would bet the same dev would earn more in germany. It just wouldn't be below minimum wage there. And the lower cost of living might be eaten up by the additional costs involved with working abroad.
And then there is the loss of time travelling if the person still has roots here in switzerland.

So after all, it does not sound SO insane if you tally up everything.


EDIT: Oh, and before someone bring up angel investors and stuff like that.
Not going to happen here in europe, certainly not in switzerland. Investors are EXTREMLY conservative in this country. Which is why outside of universities, you only really get "innovation investments" in very few well known industries... the fads of the day, so to speak.

Getting investors to invest into a gaming company located in switzerland is night impossible... so really, people have to bootstrap their start ups with their own cash, and just save money wherever they can...

 

What I've noticed is, and I can't figure it out for the life of me. is WHY are these COMPANIES ALWAYS located in the most expensive places in the USA.... Literally ALWAYS.

(San Francisco, LA, Redmond, WA, NYC, Austin and Dallas TX) That's literally where 95% of all tech jobs are, at least big ones at least, heck even a lot of startups are in them areas.

And what makes it worse is they'd rather spend 30 grand a month for a building for employees, when they could just move to somewhere and spend 1200 a month for the same dang thing.... It's not only a smart move, but business sense it's quite a lot of money saved (30 grand times 12 = 360 grand) a year.... versus 1200 a month = 14,400.

So not only would you save hundreds of thousands of dollars, the cost of living drops very considerably less. Where I live you can get a 3 bedroom apartment for like 1300 dollars. in NYC that would cost you anywhere from 12 grand to 120 grand a month.

It's freaking ridiculous why they have to be in such expensive places.

A company that can afford 30 grand a month for a 600 sq foot building can afford to relocate all employees to a cheaper area.

Then it gets to, well, if they relocated, it would spread the economic growth towards other cities, and start inviting new employees in the area.

 

@gian-reto-alig If a company cant pay minimum wage it should not be one, wether it be a startup or not.

 

@JamesArndt : Yeah it's crazy man.... I mean i could take a job in any of the places, I just don't like the price of living. My biggest enemy is my credit score though... In them places, it's kind of easy to get 75 an hour (being the cost of living is higher). At least for a Seniority position. (never been turned away from 75 an hour, which is my minimum in places like that).... But my credit is my main enemy. So very hard to find a place to live.

 

As said, that is fine with me. I am not really defending the practice, just showing one alternative reason why it exists in high cost of living countries (usually the only reason you hear about is "those evil bosses taking advantage of their employees").
Some people would like to work in a certain industry (like the gaming industry) without having to work abroad. They are willing to compromise. And a below minimum wage here might be above minimum wage in a neighbouring country (yes, you still need to pay swiss prices, so still not a good deal... but at least you most probably would not earn more by moving abroad).

You can be certain that IF these employees for some reason are no longer happy with their job or company, and want to do more damage than just walking away from it and finding a new job, they can always report the company. Guess the company will either have to change their wages then, pack their stuff and move into a neighbouring country, or just close shop.
So its a bad deal for both sides... but sadly, there is no easy solution for the problem, and the gaming industry has literaly zero political weight in this country.

This is something that has irked me for a long time.

Whats the point of moving to a "hub", when literally the only time you see the people working at other companies is something like GDC, or smaller more local conventions?
What is the point of moving close to a university or other "innovation hub", when you can work with them just as well from the other end of the country? This is the 21st century, yet people in the professional space treat teleworking as if it was some sci-fi tech that does not yet exists.

Really, I understand that a company most probably cannot operate from the most remote place in the country, where every place for your employees to find a flat to live in is at least a 1 hour train ride away *cough*that is just as true for cities like London*cough*...
I understand that you might want an airport close by for those consultants you fly in for whatever reason, or you want a flashy building at a high street showing off how well your company does (when it probably does not do very well).

But setting up shop in the most expensive place of the country is just stupid. People will have to commute MORE, as most are actually living outside of that place, because of the cost of living, no free appartments, to evade noisy city life, or to evade high taxes.
You might do your employees a favour by picking a different location.

 

The reason for this n1warhead is probably not due to the direct fault of Google, IBM, etc. (those tech companies). In our modern times tech companies make lots and lots of money, which they use to pay their engineers and other employees.

We saw this in the Bakkan Shale a few years ago. Once the oil fields were opened up and money flowed in due to high gas prices the price of everything shot up. The highest paying walmart and mcdonalds were in North Dakota for a few years! Granted the ND gov could have stepped in and made things more sustainable (and affordable for everyone) but that didn't happen. This phenomenon is whats happened in CA and other places where a lot of money is coming in.

Google's army of engineers has actually pushed local residents out of the area, many have become homeless in fact because those Google employees can afford to pay the skyrocketing cost of housing and living.

Its not that these companies choose to exist in places with high standards of living, its that what they pay their employees forces prices to go up all around them.

@gian-reto-altag I get what you are saying. The bottom line (IMO mind you) is that those startups should not exist if they can't afford to pay their employee's greater than minimum wage.

I've taken a business class and something which I learned was that european nations have more socialist economies than the United States. Keep in mind that Socialism and Communism are not the same thing. Communism is a political view, and socialism is economic.

The problem with being more socialist is you have more public services, which cost more money to run. Therefore taxes are higher, it disincentiveizes people to start and run a business, and the cost of living is higher. In places which are (IMO) capitalism on steroids like the United States you get to keep your profits at the cost of fewer public services.

Its really a balancing act.

There's also something called the Peter Paul Principle in Economics, which is very simple and you might look up on Youtube. It may suck to not be able to keep most of your wages but tbh, you have a more protective (and accountable!) government.

 

Yeah tax incentives make a huge difference, i live in a pretty small city that is starting to have a very fast growing Industry, and pulling people away from places like Montreal or Vancouver. Though it does start very slow, since due to Halifax being so new in the industry there is not that many experienced people in this province so places like Ubisoft are having to ship in talent from Montreal. Works out great for me though, since i gathers lots of experience doing freelance, and there are lots of jobs for good game programmers here now.

 

Still it should not be a thing, if they need cheap labour, try to make some deals with the local universities, not sure about your country, but in Canada you can get good tax incentives for employing students on their work terms and co-ops.

Also i really have to question the level of experience and quality of work for those that are willing to work for such little money, the really good engineers and artists know what they are worth.

 

Well, cannot comment on the quality of the people willing to work under such conditions. I would hazard the guess that most of the top of the crop will work abroad anyway, as there are just small fry studios here in switzerland. And with germany and their game dev hubs just a (long) trainride away, you can work on bigger and better acts without much dislocation.

But I wouldn't be surprised if some of those guys are actually not that bad. After all, we are not talking about bad wages on an international scale. Just below minimum wage on a local scale.
The figures I have seen was for example a company that was only able to pay their devs 2700$ on average when minimum wage in switzerland is 3200$ (AFAIK, at least the ballpark is correct)... so we are talking about roughly 18% below minimum wage. That is still about 60% above the german minimum wage. I guess its similar for france, or the UK.
There is a reason why we have so many foreigners working in good positions here in switzerland.


Now, yes, we also have a ton of companys that are abusing students or people without working expierience as cheap labour. Hardly a good practice though, as long as its not a temporary thing, and benefitting the guy working as intern just as much as the company not paying him a regular salary. This is just the legal way of paying below minimum wages, IMO, when companys are starting to create longterm internship positions after an employee leaves or is fired.
Seems like people working in science got it the worst, but it is spreading like the plague.


@Braineeee
Sums it up pretty well. Problem is, while nobody around here REALLY wants the economy to become the sink-or-swim capitalism of the US, the high cost and reluctance for driving innovation and taking on risks are really keeping out new and emerging industries from the country.

As said, I don't think this is a problem with an immidiate solution. Because it means taking away things from people long before they see any benefit.
See how france had to fight to reform some of their ultra-socialist employee protection laws and regulations.

 

You can't guarantee the quality of work from people being paid less than minimum wage either.

 

The company is in a worse bargaining position, yes. As you constantly risk being reported and getting into trouble.
Still there are companys that feel they cannot pay the minimum wage, and obviously people ready to work for them. Don't know if these are still in business, never was interested enough to follow them. If they still are, obviously it worked out for them (both the company and the employees).

One might hope it was a temporary thing. One might hope that somebody really starts to drum up political support to aid the employees being paid to little, AND the companys obviously not being able to pay enough. One might say "let them go under, we are better off without them", and see yet some more devs either leaving the country to work abroad or switch careers.
As said, I am neither defending the practice, nor trying to judge it.

All I am saying in a time were the companys sticking to "legal practices" switch more and more to shady practices like longterm internships, outsourcing labour to third world countries and hiring-and-firing, I feel that I can no longer muster the amount of disgust over the practice of paying below minimum wages I would have been able to 10 or 15 years ago.

 

I agree with @gian-reto-alig , as I said from before most indie game will only makes like 11k to 50k. Which cannot even really hire anyone. Only games that makes around 250k can hire at least a few yearly contract. Unless you want to make a non profit game for almost everything for free.

 

That is their problem than, if you are a studio there are more ways to make money than just working on your own IP, and if you can't afford to pay your people only working on your own projects you should take on some work for hire projects. Running a business of any kinda takes some work and takes some hussle to pull in all the contracts, grants and tax incentives it takes to survive.

Also 50k is not even 1 full time programmer.

 

Are there examples of studios that paid less than minimum wage? (obviously they would be defunct now). In my experience most indie studios that I know that are so strapped for cash that they can't pay minimum wage are usually one man companies so they do both the art and the programming without needing to hire anyone. If there is something they especially stink at they will contract out a small piece for a fixed rate on the deliverable, avoiding the hourly conundrum (not to mention the bidders are usually from a place with a low cost of living).

Any of the small studios (under 20 people) in the area will usually partner up with the local art institutes and offer internships to lower their cost burden, but the actual employees are paid above the requirements. I'm sure there are shady studios out there, but at least for the indies, contracting out work by bid I think would be cheaper than even thinking about employees.

 

Went looking for the original report by an university here in switzerland, couldn't find it. But found a newer article in a swiss newspaper that mentions this particular example. Well, the article is from 2015 and sounds a little bit more positive than earlier reports, so maybe things changed a little bit. But of course the headline is "Saleswoman earns more than game developers", go figure

Please excuse the google translate gibberish, article is in german, french or italian, but not english:
https://translate.google.ch/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.20min.ch/digital/games/story/Verkaeuferinnen-verdienen-mehr-als-Game-Entwickler-26059963&edit-text=


Thankfully there are names mentioned of the studio and game. Looked it up:
http://steamspy.com/app/255300

Seems like they sold 130k copies at 15$ on Steam alone... around 1.5M$ income from that title, if we take into acount steam sales and all.... 1M$ at least. And that is just steam.

But this is a 5 man/woman team, don't know if they have other titles that made any money, and of course after tax that is not a ton of money if it needs to feed the studio for 2-3 years here in switzerland.


I guess things would change for the better if the local government would aknowledge that this industry has a hard time developing unless they are somehow supported by the state.
Tax Breaks like the UK knows them, maybe the option to use university assets as temporary working spaces and stuff like that could relief some of the burden of high wages and living costs around here.

No going to hold my breath for the swiss government to do that though. They are busy paying our farmers for landscape conservation and for milk surplus production, and supporting our financial industry's shenigans.

 

Why should government pick up after this "race to the bottom" video games have got themselves into?

Seeing the game, maybe charge 30 bucks for it instead of 15? Oh thats right, most gamers would happily spend that extra money on 2 sittings at Starbucks than on a game with potentially HOURS of entertainment value.

Market is saturated, industry needs a correction, let studios fail. Only way to have a functional society in the long run is to let the market forces decide what companies survive on an even playing field. (mind you I think not just games but all other things mentioned, milk, finance etc should also not be supported by gov)

 

You , we should unite under the programmer or game designer union and should not contract under $100K a year gamedev job. Why? Investor normally will earn ten thousand times more than your salary. So you are just a little part of big machine.

If they (money holders) really want big money, even if game programmer's salary is $200K, $500K, they will hire.

Why? If those game programmers does not exist, game will never be made.

And if the project is surely big pranchise (Halo, Call of Duty, ETC), money holder have no choice but hiring programmers with exceptionary high wages like Wall Street's stock broker or money broker who is nearly con artist.

 

That might be. There still is the point that in a global market, some countries can no longer support some industries which are working on lower margins than others.
See how most of the electronics are today produced in asia, or most of the clothing is coming from burma.

Yes of course, its all the fault of consumers buying the cheapest thing on the market. Little you can do against that other than protectionist stunts that will hurt everyone in the end.

Yes of course its the companys faults for running with it. I am not sure if that particular game has a chance of demanding a higher price, but you could try. And I feel like many are not even trying and giving in to consumers calls for sales and price breaks.


But I am not sure I can buy into the gung-ho capitalistic "let the market sort it out" mantra. If we let the market sort itself out, we might as well roll a dice, or let a random number generator decide the result.
Maybe the end result is that the Indie movement dies off again, and we just have AAA and then free to play mobile shovelware next to it?
Maybe Game Development will vanish from most countries, as companys move their studios were labour is cheapest?

I like to play good games, thank you. I also would like to play diverse games. Last thing I want is the games industry ending up like the movie industry, were you have to go to small independent cinemas to see the international gems and locally produced movies (besides some artsy shovelware), because the big cinemas only show you hollywood shovelware... Because there actually are almost not BIG movies produced outside of Hollywood!

If the movies I watched lately are any indication on the degree of quality such a monopoly leads to, I rather have a part of my tax money go support some upstart Indie studios here in switzerland. Most of it gets wasted on crap projects, or is shot into the next mountain by the swiss army anyway. Maybe this way, once in a blue moon, the money I waste on taxes allows a gem I do get to enjoy to play.

While I support the formation of unions, overly aggressive unionism has never led to a stable economy.

You really think the studios would pay 500 grands to a programmer? No, they would move their studio to a place were there is no union and someone is ready to work for the 50 grands they are ready to pay.

You really think the studio bosses stuff nearly as much into their pockets as you make it look like? Yes, they MIGHT be greedy and all (or not). But it IS a tough business even for the big boys. One or two big misses and its over, unless you have some reserves. THAT is most probably were most money ends up in, a big fat warchest for that one time when one of your big bets does not work out.


Look, I appreciate that you are pissed about how poorly the average game dev is paid compared to other people working in other industries. I also think given the challenges and working conditions, things are not right.
But then again, games DO NOT have to be made. They are merely an entertainment product. And you can find good programmers and talented artists worldwide.

So sadly, I don't think things are as easy as you make it look like.

 

So squeeze out all innovation by making it nearly impossible for people to start up studios. Your idea of how the world works is rather warped

 

Well the market is (or use to be) nothing but people and what they want or need really, nothing random there.

So suddenly indie games are gone, shovel-ware and evil AAA rule the market. Well if they are that bad, its only a matter of time before people (like yourself) are tired of it, stop buying and studios realize they have to make a change. Its not that the market "sorts itself out", its just that the 'manufacturer' HAS TO face its problems and adjust/adapt.

With the same example above, if Sugar Daddy Gov were subsidizing studios somehow, the studios would say "oh look our sales are down.... well no worries, thanks to that gov money that flows in we will be just fine!" Then rinse and repeat all over again.

And it is annoying to see your Tax money spent of things that you don't approve of, but remember that feeling will be found on others saying "man! they spending ma hard earned money on some crappy games, should be spending it on tax brakes for indie fashion designers etc etc"

Thing is, instead of gov deciding where your money should be spent (outside of critical infrastructure and defence), it should really be up to you to decide where your money goes. So if a gov has so much money flowing in that they can afford to subsidize things like video games, maybe they should be taxing people less. This means you have more money to spend on your fav indie studios, and our fashion fan can spend his extra money on the indie fashionistas.

 

I agree with @passerbycmc . As I stated in my old forum post in the first section. I tell that a game start up studios is almost impossible to make it successfully.
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/game-startups.409852/

I think a lot of side business or startup people rather want to make a restaurant, fixing plumber, gardening services, hair salon, high school tutor schools, music schools, because those business have more successful rates than making a game. Those business might be easier than game development, because making a game company will need a lot of more hard skills requirement.

 

Posted some more glass door, incase you can't see it because it's by location. This is for NYC. Salary varies area to area but as some other posts said before, most developers are located in a few certain cities. Outside of these areas your salary will be much lower.. but also lower cost of living etc.

But then again, if you were in it for the money, other computer science / software engineering jobs will pay much more!

 

And all of those are good money. Of course, a person can spend every penny they make even if they are making $250k per year. Not sure why so many people seem to think the pay is so low. Unless maybe thinking in terms of the few Indies making $50k per month for a very limited time. I thought the main idea was to be doing something you loved to do for a living. Bottom line is for every person unwilling to do the job for $70k per year there are probably 20 more who would be excited to do it for $50k per year.