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How long do you think it will take to make this game? Any tips?

Discussion in 'AR/VR (XR) Discussion' started by kukewilly, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Hi All,

    I've been learning to code for about 6 months and I think I'm getting the hang of it. I definitely understand how most things work, just building my knowledge base of different unity functions and coding techniques. I'm making a relatively simple VR (Oculus), Multiplayer, FPS game and I'm wondering if some people with experience can let me know how long it might take to have the following in my game:

    - 6/7 weapons
    - Multiplayer functionality
    - Score system (points, kills, deaths, assists, captures)
    - 1 map, something similar in size too counterstrikes gungame levels (~5000-10000 sqft)
    - XP/Currency system for unlocking new guns and avatar looks
    - 4 types of in game power ups
    - Player health, pts, xp/currency
    - Player controls (only grab, triggers, start, thumbstick pop-up interface for selecting items/guns)
    - Avatar creation system
    - Available servers/game interface
    - Main menu

    The whole game is going to be low poly with a retro art style. What assets do you recommend (especially on the coding side of things) to help me get the fundamentals in place fast?

    I know this might be difficult to guess, pretty dependent on details, but I'll take anything +/- 5 months... I'll be doing this alone and have a full time job, probably can dedicate ~12-13 hours per week to this. Thanks!

    Kukewilly
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  2. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    "This" game take you nothing, because you even din't specified, what you want.
    Any other game (other than small puzzle size), specially VR, probably solid few years minimum.
     
  3. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    I know - apologies. I pressed enter and it sent too early, please see the edit. Thanks!
     
  4. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    So here it is how this looks like, being realistic.
    You can work on game only partime. That need cut at least halve of that, since .... well life.
    Then you talking about tons of features, while you have just learning basics.
    Not only you need face basics game mechanics, but multiplier, which is beyond anything simple. And on top of that VR.
    Calculating that ... well, few solid years minimum.

    You could probably accelerate learning, by trying adapt Unity FPS sample. But that may be massive learning curve.
     
  5. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    I would estimate between 0 and 80 years.
     
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  6. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    There is nothing relatively simple about the game you're describing. A member of the community (@AndersMalmgren) has been working on a realistic VR FPS. I don't know exactly how long he's been at it but it's been at least a few years now and he's neither solo nor was he a beginner when he started developing it.
     
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  7. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    3 years. We are two devs, though I would say currently we dont even hit one person full time together.
     
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  8. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    I know that that may seem like a simple game. And as a consumer it would be simple.

    But as a developer, those 3 things alone mentioned above would take probably 1 year each to do well for a single developer working part time who is a seasoned developer, let alone a beginner.


    You could use UMA for avatar creation system, and a bunch of other assets and "knit" them together, but the end result would be a game that feels like it is created from assets, and it would certainly be hard for you to debug any issues as you would not understand much of your code base as you would not have written most of it.

    Multiplayer to be honest on its own is enough to say you are shooting too high for your first time project.

    The available servers part is even harder, how are you going to determine what servers are available and deal with IP address problems like NAT punchthrough? You will need to maintain your own relay server, or purchase hosting on one.

    You could also make that easier by renting a linux server in the cloud to act as a relay, but it doesnt change the fact that what you mention is a lot of moving parts. If you are unable to determine how long it will take you to do the basic bits such as "score, player movement, powerups" then you are never going to be able to determine how long it will take you to do the bits you have no idea how to do like multiplayer.

    Couple that with the fact that noone can tell you how long it will take but you. For example, person A may take 5 hours to do one task , while B may take 10. There is no "average speed" to development. On top of which, the features you mention (such as multiplayer) have a chance of creating a ton of bugs and noone can tell how long it would take you to resolve them.


    I personally would say that based on your current skill level, other comittments, and what you have described it would take you 5 years + minimum to get this launched if you started right now.

    It has taken experienced teams 3 -4 years to get similar things off the ground so to be honest my "quote" is actually being generous and you should add 2-3 years to it as buffer to be safe.

    As a good example, a game called "owl boy" which is a 2d metroidvania pixel art game with no multiplayer, character generation etc, took the developer around 10 years to make. They were on their own, and had to restart multiple times due to not understanding the entirey of systems they were making etc which threw their design out of wack constantly. The same game could have taken 2 years if the developer had better focus, and had a strong initial design that was well thought out (and wasnt learning as they went along like you will be if you undertake this).

    What I am not saying is that you should'nt make this game.

    What I am saying is that you should rescope to something more managable, and definately take out multiplayer without a question.

    TLDR: Much longer than you were probably hoping for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  9. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Hey All,

    Really appreciate the feedback and definitely understand where you're all coming from...

    As an alternative, lets say I needed this game to be made in 1 year as I intend to use it as part of a business. Do you think some indie developers with a pre-existing game that fit this profile (VR, multiplayer, and FPS) would be interested in making some adaptations if I can manage to get them paid? I was planning on applying for a fairly attainable federal grant with a full business plan (which I've already made over the course of the last 6 months) and a proof of concept game (a pre-existing game would more than suffice) which would easily pay them for the rest of development and cover my business start up costs. But we would have to reach a partnership agreement/plan/timeline before applying. I would need the game to be maintained and updated according to feedback no different than most games. That being said I would want the development group on board and incentivized through licensing, profit-sharing, or equity.

    Let me be clear; the idea of just plugging in someones else's blood sweat and tears isn't my preference, and is the main reason I wanted to do this alone. I can tell there's a lot of DIY and anti-profiteering in the culture so I'm a bit nervous to go around asking because I don't want to sound like a suited clown. I also think game design is the most god-like skill on the planet so there's a bit of sheepish admiration behind it... Either way, I clearly don't have the background to accomplish this on my own in the necessary time frame. My background is part geology, part business. I have a career in spacial construction technology (laser scanning, GPS, drones, software, etc). And of course I've spent countless hours gaming - CRPGs and MMOs mainly...

    How do you think I should approach these developers? Again, any tips or resources that might help me get in touch?

    Thanks again.

    Kukewilly
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  10. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Just saying, that while you asking about some form of prototype, this puts you nowhere, even if you pay for it.
    Why, because, then you need learn software, how was written, that is heck a lot of job by itself, then you need do actual development.

    With such prototype, you will simply cheat for the grand. And since you don't have skills for developing, at least haven't presented anything, I doubt that anyone will get into any form of agreement with you, for taking for a word.

    If you want actually further develop prototype, you need a developer full time. And here we starting talking solid amount of $$$.
     
  11. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    If you're asking developers to do work for nothing more than profit-sharing/equity, you're not going to get anyone worth having.

    Talented developers know they're talented and can get paid for their work. You might find a person here or there who is desperate to prove themselves and is fine playing the long game, but these people would be vastly under-qualified, and there's no way you'd get even a valid POC done in a year.

    If you want a good developer, you need to buy one. Get some seed capital that can pay your developer (making sure it's a competitive developer wage for your area) full-time for a year. Establish with that person early on what the deliverables are at each (frequent!) stage of the project, so that if things go south you can keep yourself covered and not walk away empty-handed.

    If you can't get that money, and you want to do it yourself... well, you're still in for a rough time. It's one thing to do a tutorial on moving a FPS controller around and call it a day, saying you know how to do FPS controls now. Getting an FPS controller set up isn't what takes developers time, though. It's integrating it with your other systems (animation, networking, sound, inventory, avatar, etc). It's fixing issues when something breaks. It's building those systems so that you don't get 60% there and find yourself with an unmaintainable pile of useless code.

    There's absolutely no shortcut to gaining experience. And with your limited time budget, it doesn't seem feasible to me for you to learn everything you'd need to learn to be able to do this yourself.

    I don't say this to try and convince you to give up the idea. I just want you to have as much information and understanding as possible before you dive in and get yourself into trouble. If you're committed to this idea, find a way to make it happen. But the two options I've seen you present so far don't sound like proper solutions to me.

    Good luck!
     
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  12. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Sorry I may not have communicated clearly. I would still work with the developer after the submission for the grant. The grant's purpose would be to acquire funding to pay the developer for the remaining of development. With this grant I could get access to anywhere from 100k-150k just for the developer(s). On top of that I would work with them to figure out a long term compensation for maintenance and updates through licensing/profit-share/equity.
     
  13. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Looks like your best bet, is just post job offer on the internet, with detailed description.
    And from what you describe, you will be acting as a manager at most.
     
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  14. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Really appreciate the sincerity in your feedback. I fully believe I can both compensate for a developers time during design with the grant money, as well as offer them long term compensation through the 3 modes I mentioned previously after the business is launched.

    The trouble is proving out the technical risks before I have to invest too much $$ - which I've actually seen accomplished on Youtube already. Basically I would need them to scrap the game's regular movement functionality (no thumb-stick movement or teleporting). It would be fully replaced by actual player movement. This would be accomplished by generating a guardian for multiple HMDs in the same physical space, and then have each players positional data in the guardian used as their position in the game - and then connect them in the game over LAN. So you would have 2 players tracking in the same room but their in-game characters are connected over LAN, calibrating their actual space to the game space. Quite honestly it seems like the Oculus already works like this because when you move within the guardian you move in the game...? It seems like its more a matter of tying the game map to the guardian correctly. If this is WAY more complicated than I'm leading on I'd definitely like to know.

    Other than that, if the game is already a VR/Multiplayer/FPS game, I'm not really sure how much else would need to be done after that technical constraint is proven and the grant is accepted. It would depend on how close the game is already to being what I described above, and even that is very flexible as long as it's a fun game. And I fully intend to maintain the game for what it is - as in it would be named the exact same game and be made clear who the developers of the game are and that it's available on steam etc. It'd be made clear that it's from a third party. Which is why something like a licensing and profit sharing model would probably work best for the long term.

    Kukewilly
     
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  15. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Thanks for the advice :D I'd planned on trying this, but based on your feedback I'm not sure a game from the ground up is going to be achievable due to time and cost. If I need to pay a couple developers 3-4 years full-time salary I'm not sure I can accomplish that. But it's worth a try to see if there are any people that are particularly enthused about the idea and are willing to delay their full return on things until after the game is complete.
     
  16. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I would charge 110 USD an hour per developer. Not included license costs if we would use existing work by us.
     
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  17. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    I believe you're referencing the Dead and Buried demo for the Oculus Quest shown at OC5. The thing you should know about that game is that it was created by Gunfire Games, a studio of about 60 people, who had many many years of experience prior to this working on commercial games like Darksiders and Darksiders 2. They also collaborated directly with Oculus to create the arena-scale experience shown at OC5.

    Even ignoring the cost of development for the time being, there's a lot of other costs to consider. You'd need a bare minimum of 4 HMDs to work with, right? Probably extras to account for breakages and charging and whatnot. I don't think you'd want to do P2P multiplayer on a mobile platform, so you'll need a server or cloud multiplayer hosting solution. You need the physical space for testing and development. You may need to buy development machines. Parking costs? There's just a lot that goes into setting up a small studio, which is really what you need to make something like this, in my opinion.

    Frankly, you either need a lot more time, or way more money.

    I'm happy to provide sincere, semi-educated opinions! I honestly hope it helps you make the right decision.

    Maybe another option would be to pursue a much, much simpler prototype. Cut that feature list by like 80%. That might be doable by a single developer within the time frame you're limited to. Use that to secure additional funding or to entice VC investment. Have a clear vision of where you want to go, but be flexible in how it is that you get there, so to speak.
     
  18. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Thats exactly what I’m referring too. I had been exploring how I could do this for a while looking into various tracking tech that’s out there. I also was waiting for PV backpacks to take a hike so I thought I’d have to wait for 5g. Then I saw the demo and though that is f***ing it right there. But Oculus said it was a “for the future” thing and couldn’t help but wonder if it’s for the future why is it happening it right in front of my face...?

    They said it took a lot of performance tinkering and optimizing but Dead and Buried is still a pretty advanced game... The best part about VR is that as long as you have a solid art style and functional game play just about everything can look good and be enjoyable (I’m thinking of the game Compound). A game like that would be perfect for what I’m going for because it’s lean/gorgeous/highly functional. I do plan on reaching out to the creator who’s been developing it on his own.

    Regarding the surrounding elements you mentioned; I’ve done my due-diligence of all the costs for the exception of software dev which is the last question mark in my capital costs. I’ve already put a formal business plan and revenue model together with capital/op costs as well as a revenue and reinvestment model. Most of it is based on real quotes and historical data. It works out to be very analogous to a laser tag business model but the equipment and reno/arena capital costs are way lower.

    I have one last question for you if you don’t mind... You’ve been a huge help already. What features would you cut? What would you consider software “fat”, as in features that are labour intensive but kind of unnecessary? Thanks!!

    Kukewilly
     
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  19. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Is your intent here to inform me of a typical rate I’d be dealing with or are you actually expressing interest? If so can I see some of your past work? Any links I could check out? Thanks!
     
  20. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I have no idea about the going rate in general for VR devs, but thats what I charge when doing consultant work. Actually I charge a bit above that.

    You could probably find Devs for cheaper.
    We are doing a VR MP shooter

     
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  21. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    So, you obviously want all the features you originally listed to make it to the final build. And probably more in addition to that.

    I guess instead of "cutting" features, maybe I should say you'd be best off structuring your features into organizational sets that, at each step of the process, have a functioning prototype that gives a better and better idea of your vision.

    So, looking at your list:
    1. 6/7 weapons
      • Start with one weapon (pistol, or something basic)
      • BASIC implementation (click makes a raycast and does damage. leave the sound and visual effects for later)
      • Add in more weapons after other features have basic implementations
    2. Multiplayer functionality
      • You'll spend a large portion of your development time getting this up. So it should also be one of your primary focuses. Easiest way to get started would probably be something like Photon? I don't have a lot of experience with realtime multiplayer, so I can't offer much on that.
    3. Score system (points, kills, deaths, assists, captures)
      • This part isn't all that complicated and can be implemented with the first build
    4. 1 map, something similar in size too counterstrikes gungame levels (~5000-10000 sqft)
      • Build a small demo arena, like what you saw in the Dead and Buried demo.
      • Use prototyping visual assets. Straight up boxes and plain walls. Nothing fancy.
      • Remember that the hardware doesn't scan anything inside the guardian boundary as limiting. In the Dead and Buried demo, they intentionally built the arena to match the level they had designed in the game (and designed the level in the game knowing it would be built IRL).
    5. XP/Currency system for unlocking new guns and avatar looks
      • Not difficult, per se, but can be surprising in the complexity you can introduce. This can wait until late in your prototyping, after you have the core gameplay functioning perfectly.
    6. 4 types of in game power ups
      • Somewhat trivial, but not essential for the first build. Throw them in mid-development as sort of a break from the more tedious stuff you'll need to do.
    7. Player health, pts, xp/currency
      • Health is part of the basic game loop, so this will be done in tandem with your gun mechanics. XP/currency can wait and be handled along with the system integration from item 5.
    8. Player controls (only grab, triggers, start, thumbstick pop-up interface for selecting items/guns)
      • This, along with the multiplayer portion, is your primary game functionality. This must be where you start. Using the platform (Oculus, I presume) SDK, it's fairly easy to get going, but it's imperative you get it working with your networking solution from the get-go to avoid having to do entire system rewrites later.
    9. Avatar creation system
      • This can be a rabbit hole. Avoid until late in prototyping. Even then, consider making it as basic as possible, because you will have scope creep here that'll keep working its way in.
    10. Available servers/game interface
      • Pretty much an enhancement to your basic networking established from item 2. Mid-to-late stage prototyping. (early on, everyone joins the same server)
    11. Main menu
      • In your first build, your main menu will be one button: Play.
      • As you add more systems, expand the menu to allow interfacing with those systems.
      • All your UI should be basic, plain buttons until you're getting into the "make it pretty" stage. Your UI will change a dozen times or more throughout the project, and there's no sense in spending precious time making it beautiful only to throw that stuff away.
    Out of curiosity, where are you based out of? I may be interested in applying for the position. ;)
     
  22. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    Oh my god the assembly features and gun interaction looks UNREAL in this! Kudos on the general look of it too - it’s beautiful . I also like the rag doll on killing blow with the ghost left behind. I knew I would need something like this for safety reasons so kills looked like kills but players could still see their real location. Good luck with development and I will definitely be trying this when it comes out :) or is it out on early access?

    I think as is this would be too performance demanding for the Quest. I think they said 6 players in 4000sqft was the best they could do with the simplified Dead and Buried demo. Though I’m sure the architecture is already there. Would just have to implement different model assets for basically everything. I’ve already built an asset list in the unity store of low poly models I could use for for <$200 (thank you unity...). I unfortunately don’t know much about how demanding code is on performance VS graphics so it’s hard for me to say if even dumbing down the graphics would get 16 players running at 75 FPS (I think that’s Quest’s spec). Part of the technical risk I’d like to sort out..

    Regardless I’m wondering if you would be open to a 1-2 hr consultation at the rate you described? Just asking for now as I would maybe look around for someone with a lower rate. Nothing personal of course, and I don’t mean to say it wouldn’t be more than worth it. I helped build a start up industrial tech company for a couple years so I’m aware what kind of $$ you can save long term just by exploring your options.

    A couple hours with someone like yourself would be a huge for me to scope out what I’m dealing with on the software side and get a chance to more elaborately describe the business I’m trying to create. Would you be open to this?

    Kukewilly
     
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  23. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    There might be a small misunderstanding of how the guardian system works, which I tried to allude to before. The guardian is a perimeter boundary only. It does not alert you to any obstacles within that boundary. In the Dead and Buried demo, they set up the guardian to match the outer limits of the arena.

    So what prevented them from crashing into the boxes used for cover? Two things: the actual boxes themselves, combined with perfectly aligned geometry in the virtual world. The brain naturally wants to keep you from intersecting with objects it perceives to be real, so players tend to try to avoid things they see in-game. When the in-game items align with the real-world items, it creates a magical sense of presence, but its reliant on the virtual and real world being in perfect alignment.

    So if you're talking multi-story arena, and on the second floor you had what looked like a bridge that could be crossed, and that bridge didn't exist for real, every single player would run right off that ledge and fall to the ground. Which makes it worth bringing it up that insurance liability will obviously be a huge thing for you to deal with, too, as I'm sure you're aware.

    In any case, the Quest should have no problem handling the large outer boundary of your arena, from the sounds of it.

    Ah, I don't know if I'd be able to handle the >2,000 mile commute. I'll just be your friendly Internet advice-provider, I suppose. :)
     
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  24. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    Reference the Dead and Buried demo. See all the bits of tape all around the floor and on the boxes? These are visual clues that the Insight system identifies to know its position within the boundary. I don't pretend to know exactly how it works, though. In fact, I guess I can't even say for certainty whether or not the system can actually handle multiple floors...

    This may be something Oculus would be able to assist with directly. It could be tough to get their attention without being an established developer, but having money helps your chances, I'd guess.

    Yeah, I've only played laser tag once, but after my last post I pretty much pictured you building something like that, with foam-padded corners and perfectly restrictive elevated portions.

    Not sure about drift, but with rigid structures I can't imagine it'd be much of an issue. Definitely something to keep an eye on as you go, though.

    Not yet, I don't! I'm a hobbyist game developer, so that means I have 50 unfinished projects that are all somehow labeled as 'active' in my mind. I'm buying a Quest on Day 1, though, and can't wait to start messing with it, so I'll certainly track you down and send you updates on what I'm working on once that happens. :p
     
  25. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    I’d love it if Oculus replied to my inquiries... I even reached out to about 8 of their employees on Linkedin. No luck yet... My guess is that it uses image offsets frame by frame to generate a multitude of possible locations and then averages them. Some our tech does something similar. But I agree it’s imperetive I talk to them.

    Well good luck with your projects my friend. I can attest to being an uncontrollable creative engine haha. It can be pretty disorienting. I’d love it if you kept in touch with your efforts and I’ll do the same :) thanks again!

    Kukewilly
     
  26. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    Sorry for late reply. Thanks, glad you like it. We have some plans on moving to Quest, will see how popular it grows first. It means alot of tweaking to get the game to run on it.

    If you have some questions ill be happy to answer them here in the forums.

    edit: We are in EA btw on Steam, so yeah, its released
     
  27. kukewilly

    kukewilly

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    I'm definitely going to give the game a go. It looks super fun.

    I do have one question...Do you know anything about what is to be expected of the performance of the quest? I'm a bit concerned about 16 player multiplayer and what kind of graphics constraints it will put on the game. I plan to keep things pretty simple and low poly. I mentioned the game Compound previously...



    I'm under the impression that a game like this would be very easy on the CPU/GPU. Even the lighting is textured onto the walls. The issue is that I don't know what multiplayer does to a CPU. Do you know of any games coming out for quest that will have that much going on?

    Kukewilly
     
  28. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    Most VR games uses baked lighting, realtime lighting is very expensive in forward rendering . We use something called mixed mode. All static items get baked lightmaps while the dynamic items cast realtime shadows. Specularity also work since 2017 in mixed mode.

    I talk about mixed mode here


    You need good compression and lots of tweaks to get VR working well over network since you have more tracking points than in a classic desktop game. Also Quest uses wifi which further complicates things. Also I live in a western country were 1 gigabit fiber is the norm. This is not true for all of the world. I get < 1ms ping to most of Sweden and northern Europe. Make sure to use software like clumsy to test the netcode on high latency connections.

    Whats good with VR is that its alot slower than classic desktop, so you can get away with lower tickrates
     
  29. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    @kukewilly just to put my self into the mix, I would be happy to do this for about £20 GBP an hour FYI

    It would need to be full time or close to full time work though.

    About me: Senior XR developer with lots of experience on multiple platforms, and back when I did my masters I was the sole winner of a fully paid for scolarship by Sony, if thats of any interest. Got experience working with PS4 Dev kit, oculus platforms, vive, hololens and pretty much any XR platform known to man, but my original study and training was in pure (non XR) game development.

    Itll take more than one developer though FYI
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019