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How I learned not to care about the indiepocalyse and just be happy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TenKHoursDev, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    If Steam's tag system were a little more stringent I'd show you, but the number of actual survival games there is dwarfed by "survival horror" or some variant (I suppose that depends on what you consider horror).
     
  2. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    The problem is all those games don't sell well. There's a bunch of graphs and data out there on google and it turns out only a tiny % of indie titles make anything meaningful. They get press for being rubbish or outlandish then fade to nothing. But just in case we're talking about different things, you can try linking them. There's not much evidence these games ever have any real popularity. Making 100k from a game does not mean it is popular in mainstream, it merely means it earned less than 0.01% of a popular title.

    To clarify, I would call something like GTA5 or Destiny a popular title, and indicative of what the vast majority of gamers do play.

    I'm currently making a game that's probably nothing like the games I've mentioned. I don't have to like what I'm typing, only observe what I think is the logical answer, ie free from personal desire and bias.
     
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  3. Master-Frog

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    I guess I am just a jaded person who has been in a business-oriented world for too many years, but my response to this is... well, no S***.

    I tried to work with some people for years who wanted to make a game that would end up on XBOX and make them rich. I told them that was unrealistic. I showed them that even if we made $100,000 and had to split it three ways, after taxes and paying for whatever licenses/fees and the equipment we would buy and everything we might end up with $15,000 or more in our pockets. $15,000 for a year of work, that's a little over a thousand a month. And that's IF you are an unquestionable success compared to most others.

    Look, it's really simple, and I am saying it for what feels like the 1000th time... if you're trying to make indie games to get rich, go to vegas, the odds are better. Not because Vegas odds are in your favor, but because for the majority of people, the odds are effectively zero. At least having some chance of winning is nice. Don't play the lottery, either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  4. RichardKain

    RichardKain

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    This is why I'm still not a full-time indie developer. I have acquired and practiced all of the skills I would need to go full-time indie. But I'm just not a gambler. Sticking to a day-job that pays the bills and doing game development in my free time is just a way less risky proposition.

    I have the utmost respect for those who do choose to go the indie route. That can be a rough life, and more often than not they aren't doing it out of some misguided quest for riches, but rather a dedication to and passion for their craft. I'm just not brave enough for that kind of lifestyle.
     
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  5. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    It could also be that you have too many responsibilities for that lifestyle. Maybe someone depending on you, maybe you are planning for the future. They're called starving artists for a reason.
     
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  6. RichardKain

    RichardKain

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    You give me too much credit. I have been prioritizing spending time with my family, but I don't have a wife or kids. I just spend time with my parents, siblings, and nieces and nephews. So no dependents. (aside from my adorable cat) That's part of the reason why I'm able to scrounge up enough free time to work on game development. I can understand why anyone who is raising their own family might feel that they don't have enough time to pursue game development as a hobby.
     
  7. Master-Frog

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    Mobile games that exist for no other reason than a blatant cash grab...
     
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  8. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    I fully admit to being a little too pretentious for my own good when it comes to mobile games in general (not just the obvious ones, but any mobile game). Probably a bad thing to indiscriminately dislike some games simply based on their platform (though I fear that typically has heavy impact on the design of the game, which is my main point of contention).
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
  9. Master-Frog

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    When I see a bevy of atrocious PC games with no redeeming artistic quality built by amateurs being pushed on people like meth rocks, with incessant epiliptic spasm ad banners jumping out every ten seconds in some shameless microtransaction business model... I will stop hating mobile so much.

    Terrible mobile games built by money motivated non-creatives are the problem.

    You can call some PC games bad, and that is certainly a matter of taste. Unless you're a furry or a brony, I respect your right to have your own likes and dislikes. But at least with concern to PC games, I always see some element of trying. And I can't say that about mobile games.
     
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  10. TenKHoursDev

    TenKHoursDev

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    I agree with MasterFrog completely. I'm quite surprised to find someone else with the same neutral, decent, viewpoint like my own regarding "good" <insert entertainment medium here>. The thing is every form of creative work is completely subjective. Those who say one piece of art is "better" than another are making a statement, not expressing their opinion. They're saying their opinion "rules" and everyone who disagrees is wrong.

    That's a fallacy. I really wish the ole' preference "wars" (bickering) would just die off. Why can't people just be neutral, like what they like without trying to force it on others? I had an annoying af coworker who would always tell me when he heard whether the latest comic book movie was good or not, regardless of my lack of interest in his opinion, anyone else's, or F***ing comic book movies.

    -.-

    When you say a good game doesn't get the proper attention and success it deserves you're basically saying you disagree with the vast majority of people who don't like the game. Even if you state the game deserved more success, by extension you're still just stating an opinion, and in that case a will to see it be played more. There's really no facts to back it up, because its an opinion.

    I have a friend who won't play my favorite games with me because though he owns them, he played them for < 10 minutes years ago and hated it. I try to convince him to listen to some music that I know to be in good taste, and he says "no I don't like it" ten seconds in. I asked him if he would judge a book by its cover, he likes books. I told him that if he wouldn't why the hell would you do that with music? He goes on to violate his own integrity and say "Yes" to the whole judging a book by its cover. Which brings me back to the point: the phrase "Don't judge a book by its cover" essentially argues for you not to knock something creative, and completely subjective just based on a passing glance (or mention). It applies to everything.

    Ugh. I wish people weren't so pigheaded. It seems to get worse every year. I love science because its factual, I don't get to hear many facts on the internet, so it was a surprise when I read some facts on climate change recently.
    It was quite refreshing. I say that because its related to everything I just wrote. Opinions are never based in science, or facts, regardless of how strongly you argue for them or believe in them.

    Something else, those who go on to claim that those who don't believe in science are "stupid" or lesser humans are just being asshats. It solves nothing! You don't convince someone of the good in science by insulting them. Its essentially fruitless too, my friend sends me a link to some people on facebook who believe in the "top down turtle flat earth" theory or something and because those people won't hear our conversation.. If you're going to make fun of someone, do it to their face! Otherwise you're just wasting my time because what can become of this? Reinforcing the idea that we are good and great because we believe science and others don't? I cannot think of a greater waste of words.

    Hearing opinions, oops I mean biases every friggin' day gets tiresome.
     
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  11. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    You stopped talking about the topic, and started bitching about people. Can you not?
     
  12. TenKHoursDev

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    I could but then what fun would that be? :p Yea. I just thought those were good example's of people being pigheaded. Sometimes I can't control myself :p
     
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  13. Master-Frog

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    That was quite a tangent, even by Unity standards.

    Perhaps it can be salvaged by saying, yes people have different tastes and we can't go around expecting to be taken completely seriously when we label things bad when thousands of others enjoy them daily. But we can have our own opinions, as long as we realize that they're just a manifestation of our own little biases and not actually a substitute for objective analysis.

    So, what makes an indie game 'terrible' by your standards may make it 'great' by someone else's standards. And therefore, the whole concept of a "flood of bad games" is really different in each person's perception. Maybe we are not talking about the same thing.

    Someone said in this thread they never want to see another survival horror game... and I feel, sometimes, like I would like to play a new, really disturbing horror game every once in a while and it never gets old.

    That said, I still maintain that mobile profit driven games are poisoning the well of modern gaming, but there are people on here who that's all they make and they're having a blast.
     
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  14. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    It's not so much mobile profit driven games are poisoning the well, it's just that's mobile. It's not a platform that developed to be friendly to important purchases, but frivolous on the move purchases, microtransactions. It's things that customers responded to. This along with Unity being so accessible has led to a flood of really bad quality.

    This is why you should never do it on consoles. The moment you do, the rush to the bottom actually kills practically anyone who wanted to try and make something good. Because it's more cost effective not to.

    Steam is going the same way as mobile. I now only use steam for AAA titles. This isn't good business for indies who want to try and make something special and different. Instead it's a pile of wank simulators. WTF, really? If hating on that means I have bad taste, then that's fine.

    Also all these people are disrespecting customers at large. Indies get a bad rep and it spreads. Little wonder many of us now ask for curated stores.
     
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  15. GarBenjamin

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    It seems like the popularity of game dev has brought in a load of freaks basically. Making games that would have been best left sitting in the attic of their own minds. The fact that many of these games seem to connect with a lot people is probably more cause for concern.
     
  16. Prototypetheta

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    At least you aren't the guy who makes his first generic mobile game and then calls himself an "entrepreneur", gambling his everything on it.