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How I learned not to care about the indiepocalyse and just be happy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Deleted User, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. Deleted User

    Deleted User

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    So a few days ago I had a eureka moment (the how part).

    Game development is about passion for the craft, not making money. In my opinion if you're in this to earn your millions you're in it for the wrong reasons.

    The present shall we call it "professional" game industry is by reports, toxic. Crunch-time, and relatively low pay compared to other developer jobs, make it a tough industry to bare working in.

    The indie scene is a bit different. There's not lots of treasure to be had but there is the freedom to create whatever you want, (resources limiting) and less stress!

    What I realized is that you have a choice here, you can (try) get a job as a professional game dev at a large studio, or you can go indie, potentially make less money but have the freedom to create whatever you want.

    From other reports its been said that its still possible to make money in game development, however with many people making mediocre games, its important to release the most polished, quality game that you can and market it heavily, in any way that you can!

    These are just my thoughts, and I honestly feel much better about this instead of thinking "I'll never make any money with this so I may as well try not". I actually feel quite happy about it. I won't be deterred, but go ahead and post your thoughts!
     
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  2. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    If you're not in it for money the idea of never making any money from it would not have been a deterrent. Or am I missing something here?
     
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  3. N1warhead

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    I'm trying to figure out why every couple of weeks posts about an impending indiepocalypse is coming.
    You get what you make out of it, there's no such thing as an indiepocalypse.

    yes there is a flood of junk on the markets, so go where there isn't no junk, or at least as much.
    Screw the mobile market - yeah more people on phones, but more junk as well. Then you have the free crap, screw free crap. I deserve to get some kind of value towards my work. But then again - does any game deserve value if people are releasing things they made in a week? No not really in my opinion. Junk is what it is - junk.

    Now I mean there's a difference in releasing your first game - it's an accomplishment.
    However - don't continue releasing junk crap.

    So with that being said - go where there isn't at least as much junk - Console Market perhaps?
    Even PC Market. Goodluck releasing junk on Console market, they'll never give you a devkit just to make junk crap.
    So with that in mind - you have to push your self to make something worth value of actually getting paid.

    Whether or not your in it for the money/fun or anything else, it always feels nice to get the gratitude you deserve.
    But purposely releasing games that take a week to make or even a month = junk. The Mechanics of a game can be bombing good, but just because of that doesn't mean you have a good game.

    So in my opinion - make something worth an actual dollar value and you will get the respect you deserve and your place in the Market. Let the crap mobile market crash why you chase bigger and better markets that actually show respect towards hard work. It won't be easy, but there's no such freaking thing as an indiepocalypse - only the work you put into something.
     
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  4. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    You make games or you don't. Period.

    If you spend all your time worrying about the "industry" (which virtually no one talking it about is actually part of), what others are doing, obsessing and quantifying and debating over things like labels and making assumptions about things they don't have experience or understand then you are pretty much a game development fan, like a wrestling fan.
     
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  5. Aiursrage2k

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    They were practically giving away kits to anyone who was willing to pony up $1500 for the Wii U. People can put 2 years into there game and it might not do that well, someone can come along and put like a few weeks into something IE "block lives matter" and its a home run. I saw one developer who sold 54k units with there first game and only 3.5k with the next one. I think because its such a crapshoot I wouldnt put that much time into something
     
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  6. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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    I'd rather say that if you're entering the industry with the expectation of earning millions, you're setting yourself up for a huge disappointment.
    To make this kind of money in the games industry, you need to either develop a game like Minecraft or build a huge and successful company.
    The former isn't something you can realistically expect, because there are far too many unknown variables. If it happens great, if it doesn't but you expected it, you were an idiot.
    The latter is something that takes years of hard work, dedication and many different skills. Having some luck also helps.
    Either way none of them are things you should enter the games industry for, expecting them to "just happen".

    Sadly this is true. The "EA spouse" incident and the recent leaks regarding the working conditions over at Konami should be enough to make people want to throw up.

    I agreed until "and less stress" which is wrong.
    You have to understand the implications of being independent. AAA games are funded by publishers who get their money from investors. When your AAA title runs out of money, there's still a pool with millions and millions there. Whoever is responsible for a mismanagement of resources at that scale is obviously in serious trouble, but there's at least a chance that things will work out.
    When you're independent and run out of money, not only will you only find yourself in a situation where you're unable to feed your family and yourself, but also left without the means to continue development to get out of it. You are F***ed, if you don't have anything to fall back on. There are no safety nets.

    It's one of the most fundamental trade-offs between self-employment and working for somebody else. When working for someone else, that person takes care of a lot of things for you. There are many things you don't need to worry about. When self-employed, you need to handle every last thing yourself.

    Being independent means carrying a lot of responsibility. Don't forget that.

    It's a bit naïve to put it that way.
    What about:
    "You can (try) get a job as a professional game dev at a large studio, or you can try to go indie, potentially not making enough money to get by, but having the freedom to create whatever you want."

    True words.
    I often heard the argument that quality doesn't guarantee sales. What does though? Nothing. There are no guarantees to become successful. Quality isn't a guarantee, but a prerequisite.
    With quality you might not be successful. Without it, you won't.
     
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  7. Kiwasi

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    Come join us on the hobbyist side. We have full time jobs and work on what we want. We have more creative freedom then the indie. We have absolutely no need to make any money, so we can literally do what we like.

    Of course we also have very little time to spend on game development. But hey, our mediocre games can certainly help drive the indiepocalypse.
     
  8. BFGames

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    I work full time as a developer with my buddy. We work from project to project and i like it a lot! And when we have time we play around with our own projects.
     
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  9. RichCodes

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    I feel a lot like @N1warhead.

    I worked for years to get myself up over 500k downloads on Google Play, so you think I would be set for life with a revenue stream right? Thing is, with the current state of that market I may have 500k downloads but I can count on my hands and feet the number of "fans" that got me. So with every game I published I would basically have to start the whole process over of trying to get people to notice/buy my game. Trying out a free model for one of my games netted me even less, and left me feeling sick about the amount of work I had put into it. It turned me off from making my own games for several years.

    I'm getting back in the development game now, but with a much different focus. Give me 10,000 raving fans who appreciate my hardwork over those old 500k "followers" on the mobile market any day.

    Granted so far my number of "raving fans" is about at.... uhm... hold on, let me count my family...
     
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  10. N1warhead

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    @aT Games - Just gotta find the proper niche. I strongly believe I hit one with my current game I'm making. But only time will tell lol. But yeah, I strongly discourage people to think there is a such thing as an indiepocalypse. If there's people out there who are still willing to spend money, then there is a market. So until then, dev on man lol.
     
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  11. Gigiwoo

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    May I offer some thoughts? Your eureka is perfect for you. You might find it's stronger if you avoid broad judgements about everyone else, such as, "Game development is about passion ... not making money. If you're in this to earn your millions you're in it for the wrong reasons."

    For many of us, Game Development is a job, and a passion. While I'm striving to provide a nice life for my family, I am also passionate about doing work that is meaningful, appeals to me, and takes advantage of my skills. I'm quite good at what I do. Congratulations on your eureka.

    Gigi
     
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  12. Kiwasi

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    It's not about does the market exist. It never has been. It's about how many devs the market can support. And the indiepocalypse assertion is that the market can support less devs then there currently are.
     
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  13. SteveJ

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    To me, making games at an "indie" or even "hobbyist" level is a lot like any other creative career pursuit - acting, starting a band, painting, writing, etc. It's an uphill battle to ever REALLY make a mark, but you do it because it's something that you really enjoy doing, and something that you simply can't switch off. So, talking about whether or not it's a "good idea", whether or not you're ever going to make money from it, and all that other stuff, is really without any purpose because you're going to do it anyway. Sometimes logic just isn't a factor; passion is an overruling, driving force, and the sooner you just give into it and stop worrying about the decision, the sooner you can get on with your work and maybe make something truly wonderful someday :)
     
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  14. SteveJ

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    Don't get me wrong though - I would never side with these people that argue that if you're trying to make money from it, then you're not a "real artist" and you're never going to succeed. We all need money. Money is good.
     
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  15. RichCodes

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    I think the big markets are past their saturation point for crap, and that there is plenty of room in small niches like @N1warhead suggests. Just have to find the one that I enjoy working in.
     
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  16. GarBenjamin

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    Yeah I think people confuse what the term means too. Nobody ever said gamers suddenly stopped buying Indie games. As @BoredMormon stated lots of people are buying Indie games but there are loads of people making Indie games. It is definitely a real thing and no sense in people trying to explain it away as not happening.

    You only need to read a bit to find out about the people who were making x amount from their games 5 years ago who are now making a % of X amount from their games the past year or so. You can read the firsthand experience of @Ony on these forums. Someone who made a living from it for 15 years and now it seems like that is just not a happening thing anymore.

    When the tools became available for everyone to make games and those first big hits happened it caused a massive number of people to come into game dev. Some make crap games. Some make great games. All are things gamers need to dig through. It's a simple thing really. Where before if a person wanted to play X game they may have found 3 different options. Now they look and find 3,000 different options. Those numbers are just thrown out to illustrate the point.

    BUT... this is no reason for you or anybody else to not make a game and even try to make some money. There is always a chance you may get lucky. I just personally think it will be a much more enjoyable experience for you and others if they get the making money part out of their head. Get a job. Then just relax and make what you want to make and not fret over how many pennies, dimes or dollars your game is making today.
     
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  17. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    I don't know about you but if I want to make a game but if the game I want to make is like 10 grand on art I want to be able to do if, and not care if it makes money or not. Well if your games are making money it seems like it be an easier to justify
     
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  18. JamesLeeNZ

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    Never really cared about the indie-apocalyse... think its stupid personally.
     
  19. GarBenjamin

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    No doubt about that. If the game sells well enough to bring in enough money to cover the $10k on art that'd be cool. For me, I just don't take on such projects to begin with. Stick with stuff I can knock out with minimal time, find on the asset store cheap or contract out to artists. And I carefully choose which things to spend money on. But heck I make a good living and I wouldn't spend $10k on art assets for any game. Low poly is ideal. ;)

    For things that allow me to build stuff quickly I am more inclined to spend on those. World building tools and so forth. Although I have bought a lot of 2D & 3D content on the asset store over the past couple of years still it is in the hundreds of dollars total.

    I am debating between building a simple waypoint system, buying an easy-to-use waypoint system from the asset store or just doing it the normal way (well what I normally do anyway) of having the enemies scan the environment and move about that "more natural" way. But still even this will be no more than $30 if I buy one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016
  20. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I think it would take real artist to make money out of it.

    Unity has NavMeshAgent. Use that.
     
  21. RichCodes

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    I bought one, then ended up building my own anyways. Its actually relatively easy, and then you have total control.
     
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  22. GarBenjamin

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    I agree. Just a list of nodes containing positions at the most basic level. I am leaning toward building my own because then I can easily add any info I want to those nodes.

    I've always just went with no predefined paths and have the enemies/NPC characters scan their environment and move accordingly. So I may just do that again. Not sure. Will decide tonight when I get back to the project.
     
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  23. RichCodes

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    That's what I ended up doing. In my situation it was quite useful, my AI would use information stored on the nodes to make decisions about the path itself. I also used the messaging system on some nodes where the paths were used by multiple different types of characters.

    We seem to be heading a tad off-topic. Sorry! :p
     
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  24. Master-Frog

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    I would go a step further.

    Get making games out of your head. Get MVP, demos, testing... Get everything cleared out of there.

    Now, remember back to when this was supposed to be fun. What happened that changed that?

    It's never too late to go back to that.

    I guess if you came into the world of games just to make money, you're doing it wrong. And by it, I mean life.

    Games need to be fun to become popular and, therefore, fun is the main barrier to making money. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there's no rhyme or reason why some games become popular and others don't.

    How can you make a fun game when you're not having any fun? By quitting this insanely restrictive nightmare reality of being a serious game developer and trying to gain a massive following, you will not only enjoy the creative process far more, you will also increase your chances of people liking your games.

    Indieapocalypse?

    Sounds like a good excuse for financial failure.

    But there's no excuse for making something you don't love.
     
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  25. hippocoder

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    All I can say is OP's assumptions from the get-go about both industries is horrifically wrong. The truth is neither AAA or Indie has any actual rulebook here. One AAA company may work dramatically different to another. And of course, the same is for indie.

    This is an industry which is forever changing, along with the hardware and tools, and even how games are made. Please, don't assume.

    And I've been in crunch for years. That's my call though, not anyone else's. And I'm indie.
     
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  26. N1warhead

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    I still believe it has to do with a solid Marketing Plan and a good beautifully polished game.
    Now I'm talking about PC and Console Markets here. But I'm sure it would work with any other platform.

    Anywho, I'm sure if I marketed my game out to literally millions of people to know about it, I'm sure my game would do good, as long as it is producing quality content worth something. But not many people can afford to reach to millions of people, I'm just lucky enough to know business owners that are willing to let me advertise my game with them for free.

    From what I've learned, it's good to get Marketing going along before you ever release your game.
    So that's exactly what I'm doing.

    I guess time will tell when it comes to release date huh? lol.
     
  27. hippocoder

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    I've been struggling to find a good word or phrase that's nicer than wannabe and you have it right there. A lot of people play games or are interested in development but aren't motivated enough to do anything worthwhile.
     
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  28. Master-Frog

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    And are generally interesting people.

    When I started, I made a lot of little things but never finished. Then I stopped making anything at all. Then I talked about it for a while. Then I pretended like I was working on things. Then I made something just to prove that I could. But, have I ever consistently made good things over a period of time? No.

    So for me, it's no surprise at all that I am not some indie gaming rockstar, lol. I am just some guy. But for the rest of the people who truly believe that they are not to blame for their shortcomings, but that the indie gaming market is the culprit... that's just plain dishonest.

    You get back what you put out. Nobody should be complaining unless they've put out at least 10 or 15 decent quality games that look like effort was put into them. I am not complaining about being unable to make cash from games. I know I haven't done the work.

    But I think we are all tired of hearing excuses from people, for their lack of effort and poor quality of games they are putting out. When I make something, I try. I really do. I stress over it. If it's lousy... it's because I have a lot to learn.

    And I do need to seriously step it up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016
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  29. hippocoder

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    Well the indiepocalypse isn't about hobbyists. It's nothing to do with those guys pottering about. It's about the flood of utter crap pushed toward people who are actually interested in playing a decent game instead.

    Anyone doing this for fun or pleasure ie non financially, has my respect, it's there the best little games get made. That can't ever cause an "indiepocalypse".

    I don't think your situation is the same, Master Frog.
     
  30. Kiwasi

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    This.

    I went to a game jam planning meeting the other day. The point was to build teams in advance of the jam. There were a lot of game dev students mid degree or just finishing their degree. About 90 % of them could not tell me about games they had worked on or were currently working on. That seems to be a total waste of a degree to me.

    I ended up with a journalist, a corporate iOS developer, and a chemical engineer. None of us have game design qualifications or work directly in games. But we are all motivated enough to be working on games in our spare time.
     
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  31. GarBenjamin

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    I agree with you on the fun thing. I have worked on many game projects over the last couple of years. When I no longer am having fun or am just bored I move on to something else. Sure I try to get them to a playable release. But for me this stuff is all done for fun and it is about having fun while doing it.

    If it was a constant struggle each day to make myself work on it I wouldn't do it. I've heard some folks around here say it is a struggle for them. I don't get that. If you have to force yourself I'd question whether this is the right thing for you to be doing. A lot of folks have jobs they absolutely hate. Why do game dev if it makes you feel the same way?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016
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  32. zombiegorilla

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    I was trying to avoid that word as well, but it is kinda accurate. I definitely feel there is a huge difference between those folks and true hobbyists.

    One thing I have noticed over the last couple of years here, is that with all the influx of the recent tier of "aspiring" game developers, is that forums topics/discussions have shift more to talking about game development, and less about developing games. Kind of like fantasy football vs. playing football (at any level).
     
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  33. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    And that's pretty good business for Unity. I just hope Unity focuses on practical development needs first :)
     
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  34. Master-Frog

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    To me, it's more like arranging a pick up game, but come Saturday everyone always has a knee problem or an appointnent they can't get out of. Or the grass is too wet, or they were wearing the wrong shoes, or they don't take this game as seriously as other people do... but it's never that they are in bad shape or are not good at football.
     
  35. Aiursrage2k

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    I guess theres an element of not being good enough but Ive seen worse games do better and better games do worse.
     
  36. Master-Frog

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    Allow me to propose an alternative explanation.

    Your tastes don't accurately reflect the majority of people's tastes?
     
  37. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    How would you know?
     
  38. Master-Frog

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    Easy, people wouldn't play those games if they felt the same way. The most accurate reflection of public opinion will come from the public's reception and consumption.

    We are not uniquely able to dictate to the world which games are good and bad, which ones are worthy of being played and which ones are not. People like what they like.

    When you say "crappy games do well and good games do bad", that's like saying, "terrible food is popular and great tasting food is rarely eaten".

    It's just so...

    hipster-ariel.jpg

    I know, I know... the sea is just so mainstream.
     
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  39. GarBenjamin

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    There's definitely games that "should" have done very well but did not. In fact over Thanksgiving or Christmas Break I watched a video by PewDiePie and he commented on this.

    One of the games he covered he said something along the lines of "This game was overlooked when it came out. And a big part of that is probably my fault. I had planned on covering the game and never did because at that time I was just too busy with other things. As a result of that it just never got much attention and wasn't very popular. Most people never even heard about it. But it really is a great game so check it out. You can buy it right now on the Steam sale for very cheap!"

    So there are many reasons really. One of the biggest I've seen is that sometimes a really stupid game gets popular with school kids and it just kind of goes viral. Of course, getting the big name YouTubers can also start that viral effect. It is a chain reaction. Once it starts (for whatever reason) then others pick it up and cover it as well. And that gives it a bit more of a lift.

    I kind of see it like the game is a paper airplane. We stand on a tiny hill and throw it. It goes a tiny ways and starts to drop. If there is no force to lift it that is pretty much the end of it. However if a strong breeze such as PewDiePie or whatever comes along at the right time they can lift it back up much higher than where it started. So it goes a good ways before hitting the ground. If before it hits another person (some game website or whatever) sees it and gives it another lift... up it goes again soaring along. Eventually, it can take on a life of its own. Once it hits a sort of "critical mass" thingy.

    The Indiepocalypse comes into play because with so many games it makes it harder and harder for the lifting forces to be aware of a good game to push them up. And even if they find a bunch of super duper games there are only so many games they can cover in a given week. And next week there are many more released.

    As sad as it seems to be the simple fact is that most of the world are followers. They need to be told what to do. They need to see a gaming website or someone like PewDiePie tell them what games they should be playing. Of course, at the same time, with all of the games out there and coming out today, tomorrow, next week, etc I can kind of see why people are looking for guidance as to where to spend their time and money.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  40. Master-Frog

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    So... one must only release random S***ty games with a certain rhythm to it, and eventually something will get blown by the magical winds of fate to viral success?

    I like how this completely prevents the developer from bearing any responsibility as to the ultimate reception of his or her game. There is no varying skill level, all is luck, fate, a toss of the dice. Everyone is equal and nobody is a winner or a loser.

    I don't like that view of the world.
     
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  41. GarBenjamin

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    Well the developer has a responsibility and some control over it. A small amount at least. First by making a good enough game. Not a super duper "best ever game" but just a good enough game. And then more importantly doing everything they can to cut through all of the noise out there and get their games covered by the YouTubers, game websites, gaming communities and so forth.

    That's how someone with a "worse" game can beat a "better" game. How a game that is not so great can end up getting a lot of plays on web game portals, downloads on mobile or sales on Steam. At the same time it is also how someone can labor and make a clearly exceptional game and yet see only a bit of success. Because that is the only part they focused on.

    Games I think are like pretty much everything else in the end. And all through history people have been doing superior marketing of inferior products and making them more successful than other better products.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  42. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    For some reason, I can't help but see parallels between the way someone presents their work of art to the world with the way they present themselves to the world. It's so personal. Imagine going to a job interview wearing what you would wear to paint the house. You wouldn't. Imagine going to a job interview and saying, "I am really not that great. I haven't really applied myself that hard in learning this line of work. But I would appreciate anything you could toss my way." You wouldn't.

    You can always sell yourself short, of course, but how you sell something doesn't matter if it universally sucks and nobody wants it.

    At the moment, I work for a company that really, really sucks. People hate this company. But people still call them. They don't call this company because they can't do the job they say they can do, mind you. This company does what it advertises. It does it quickly. It's just very, very expensive. 2 times market value. And every day, people still call.

    They call because they at least do that one thing well and they advertise out the wazoo.

    You can't just start a competing company and say, "well, I'll just charge less than so-and-so and I'll rake in the millions!" because, at the end of the day, you don't have the resources to do what they do in the first place.

    I think sometimes jealous game developers look at other people's games and say to themselves, "That game sucks. I could do that."

    No, you couldn't. If you could, you would but you can't, so you don't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
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  43. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    I don't think it's fair to call people interested in game development from the sidelines wannabes. Are you a wannabe with you discuss politics with another person? Was Roger Ebert a wannabe movie producer? (I've never read a single review of his, it's just an example) Just because you're interested in something without wanting to take part in it doesn't make you a wannabe everyone should scorn.

    Now when it comes to a place like this, obviously the conversation should trend towards actually developing games. And it is: There are over a dozen subforums devoted to different parts of game development. But discussion of development and the industry doesn't make someone a wannabe.

    Now that's of course different from those people who go around SAYING they're making a game, writing a novel, etc., but have done nothing more than spout grandiose ideas to the nearest victim. I do my best to ignore them :p
     
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  44. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    Depends on who is doing the accusing... some people need to feel superior, it's part of their self image. So, you get lines drawn. "Everyone on this side of the line is inferior to me." So, if someone works in the industry, they might say everyone who isn't is a loser. If someone has made a game, they might say everyone who hasn't completed one is a loser. And so on.

    Best to avoid comparisons and titles like wannabe and veteran and pro, and just focus on the work itself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  45. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Well in theory a "discussion" doesn't have any accusing. I hope not anyway. But I agree with your statement.
     
  46. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    A discussion about ideas shouldn't become about the people having the discussion, at least not in an ideal world. But, that's what always happens, anyhow.
     
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  47. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Sadly true.
     
  48. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    This site has its fair share of genuine wannabes. Just keep an eye out for threads on MMOs, zombie survival game, and asking for monetisation tips.
     
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  49. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    If I never see another survival horror game it will have been too many.

    That's also reflective of the industry as a whole, though. Or at least of survival games.
     
  50. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    Everyone wants to be something they currently are not. If everyone is a wannabe, then what does it mean to call someone a wannabe? I believe it is, perhaps, to a greater degree a declaration of a lack of awareness of one's own self.

    I think this is more of a reflection of your own feelings on survival horror games, than anything else.