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How do you make money as a freelance game developer

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stranger-Games, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. Stranger-Games

    Stranger-Games

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    Hi,

    How do you make money if you are a freelancer game developer with no extra money to invest.
    Most freelance game developers I know face the following problems. I think discussing it would benefit everybody.
    1. Without good investment (time and a little bit of money at least) it's very hard to make successful indie game that makes enough revenue for living especially in saturated stores like android, iOS, steam.
    2. It's extremely hard to find long term clients on places like upwork or unity connect. Most people who post jobs there are enthusiast and not companies that needs long term developer.
    3. When you find a long term freelance job from a respectable company, no matter how good your portfolio is, they rarely contact you for an interview especially if you are asking for around $2500/month or more.
    4. Creating assets and selling it is definitely worth it, but still not making enough money for living for most people
    5. Even if you have experience managing a whole game project from planning, recruiting other freelancer team, create a whole game then release it, it's hard to find clients who are willing to assign you as a project manager for a whole new game project where you can handle everything and deliver a complete game. Except of course if the game you created and released is extremely successful, but if it's successful, you will probably not need any clients. They might think your game is not that good, and it probably is because it was self funded, but they don't understand that if he is willing to invest more in his game, you will be able to make a better game.
    Would you share with the community how/where do you find your clients and how do you invest your time?
    Where do you publish your games and what kind of games you create?

    Thanks for advance.
     
  2. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    In my opinion, there are two kinds of jobs in this world: there are ones you get so that you can do them, and there are ones you get because you can do them.

    I can get a job at McDonald's with no requisite experience. They'll train me to do anything I don't know how to do like work a cash register, operate a fryer, or cook 20 burgers at a time on a big grill.

    Game development is the other type. To be a professional game developer, you have to be able to make games. And you have to prove that you can. And the best way to prove it, is to do it. So if you want to work and make your primary income as a game developer, whether as a freelancer, an indie, or part of a studio, you gotta make games on your own first.

    I think the trap a lot of people starting off fall into is thinking they can start out, watch a few tutorial videos, and make their magnum opus that will earn them famous and/or wealthy. It doesn't help that most of the industry seems to encourage this thinking with deluges of articles about Flappy Bird's runaway success, the deification of Notch, and Unity's own marketing plan of suggesting that its engine and the Asset Store are all you need to find success beyond your wildest dreams.

    Game design and development is tricky because it's part art, part science. You need to have the technical knowledge to do the work, and to be able to do it efficiently enough to make it viable (working for 10 years on your dream game is not viable for almost anyone). But it's also an art, and you need to refine your taste, explore the medium, and understand how quality isn't always quantitative. Both the science and the art of it require experience, and I'm not aware of any shortcut to acquiring that.

    I'm a hobbyist game developer. My BitBucket account looks like a whittler's garage. But I'm building up that experience and slowly finding which projects warrant finishing, and the portfolio is gradually taking shape. I'm also a professional web developer, so that kinda helps. I charge a steep rate for freelance development work and do not compromise on it since I believe in the value I provide. I don't win a lot of contracts I bid on, but I quite often get the invitation. I think it's a matter of building up that portfolio a bit more and showing potential clients right off the bat that I know what I'm doing and that I'm worth the cost.

    Anyway, maybe this is off topic from what you wanted to discuss. I just think it's another point to bring up. Just make games and game-related things, people. Find what you're good at, get even better at it, and find a way to make it work for you.
     
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  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    That is not what a freelancer does. Freelancer gets hired to work for someone else. You're literally a gun, I mean, developer for hire.

    If you're making things to sell them on steam, you're acting as self-employed. Same applies to selling stuff on asset store... or trying to release a game.

    If you're asking how to make a living off game development that's a different question.

    -------

    In my experience in the end it is a matter of non-stop hunting for more clients, trying to impress them with stuff you can do, and then working with them for a while.

    Then, once you think you've got a decent supply of clients, somebody shuts down the marketplace you've been utilizing.

    It is also possible that I simply have bad luck, though.

    -------

    Oh, and one more thing. You indeed need to be very skilled. Even If you aren't selling your own games on steam, you should still be to make a prototype in 2 days, or participate in events like ludum dare.
     
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  4. Stranger-Games

    Stranger-Games

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    That's unfortunate. Can you tell me what marketplace were you utilizing before getting shutdown?
     
  5. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    People send me emails. I pick the jobs I want. I do the jobs. Then they pay me.

    Its not a super complex system. But it pays the mortgage.
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  6. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Under what circumstances do you think that a company would want to hire a freelancer into a long term job or to project manage and recruit for them?

    Repeat business I can very much understand, but if they want to fill a "long term" position then why wouldn't they just hire someone into the company?

    Moreso, if they want to outsource the creation of a whole product then why would they want to do that to someone who needs to start by recruiting a team? Depending on their goals I would think that they would find an already established team or, again, hire a person to recruit for them directly?

    This could be me misunderstanding what you're saying, but it sounds to me like you're looking for things that are ideal for you rather than figuring how you can be ideal to someone else. What is the value you can provide, and how can you "package" that value to be of maximum use to someone else? If you want to be a freelancer then my guess is that it would involve being prepared to work short stints on highly specialist things on an as-needed basis.
     
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  7. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    There is a niche for it, but its rare. I've hired a project manager once before for a single project because the company did not have the expertise or inclination to do it ourselves. It was a project well outside of our core business, and it wasn't something we were likely to do again for another twenty years.

    We picked a guy that had been doing project management for 30 years. And he wasn't a true freelancer, we called up another local company that we knew well and said 'hey, we need a project manager, you guys do lots of project management, can we pretty please borrow one of your guys for six months'.
     
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  8. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Yeah, that makes sense.

    Since writing my post it also occured to me that if you're not talking about full time work then it could make sense. For instance, someone could be a regular concept artist for a whole bunch of studios on an ongoing basis, but not be an employee of any of them (because that might be a pain), and move between them as needed.

    When I wrote that I was very much in a mind of "whole game project", since that's what was being asked about.
     
  9. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    That makes sense. Also, I was very much thinking in terms of "whole game projects" when I wrote that. I can think of plenty of cases where a long-term relationship with a freelancer makes a lot of sense if they're not needed on a regular basis over that long term.

    An example that springs to mind could be a concept artist working regularly with a bunch of studios, but on an as-needed basis with each of them. Might not make sense to be an "employee" of all of them.
     
  10. Stranger-Games

    Stranger-Games

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    Thank everyone for their precious contribution.
    That sounds too cool. However would you share with us how have you advertised your service to get the e-mails in the first place?
    From the experience, it's not as easy as creating a web page with your portfolio and contact form.
     
  11. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I'm not a game Dev but enterprise system arcitecht, I get several job offers per week sometimes multiple per day on LinkedIn. Don't know if game Dev customers are using linkedin though
     
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  12. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Have a look around this place. Its almost impossible to google something Unity scripting related without coming up with my name within a few pages. Its also quite likely you will find me if you start searching though Unity tutorials on YouTube.

    That's literally the extent of my marketing. I'm simply in the place that my customers are.

    In fairness its worth noting that my freelance plate fills up pretty quick. I work a normal full time day job unrelated to games. A couple of project requests a months ends up with more then I can realistically do. That said, if I was to go full time, I would follow the same basic strategy. Simply spend time where my customers naturally are, and demonstrate my value in that environment. Doing this full time would involve turning up to all of the conventions in my country, as well as attending the various game development meetups, and hanging out in the places that game developers hang out.
     
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  13. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Yup. LinkedIn as well. (sadly the best offers always come when I am happily employed already) That is the primary source for most folks I know, though really is just past contacts reaching out.

    --

    Like anything else, it depends on your experience and skill level. Once you've built a your name/rep, you don't have to look anymore, you basically spend most of your time politely turning down offers while keeping positive relationships for the future. Stay in contact with past peers and contacts.
     
  14. ikazrima

    ikazrima

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    Build a good relationship with your clients & colleagues if you have a full time job. Most of my jobs came from recommendation from one client to the other.
     
  15. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I used vworker and unity job forums among the other things.

    The general issue is that owner of the portal in general doesn't give a damn about people that work there, and might suddenly reach some sort of "enlightement" and get an "amazing idea" to modify the portal. Freelancers on the portal will be the ones dealing with consequences.

    Basically, for example, right now unity decided to shut down job forums (which was dumb), and play linkedln (which is also dumb). For me it would mean that I need to adapt to yet another goddamn social-focused marketplace that doesn't seem to have my interests in mind.

    And when I get used to that system, I bet they'll shut it down again, or break it another amazing way I couldn't foresee.

    This is tiresome.

    How many times did the portals I used disappear by now?

    *sigh*

    My advise would be to find 12 or so guys that would be feeding you manageable contracts for the next 30 years and work for them exclusively. That would be more stable than another portal that may go under or get an "amazing idea" tomorrow.

    Weren't you a chemical engineer with a day job, though? (-_-)
     
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  16. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    In these threads, people rarely mention getting experience as a regular full-time employee first. (Assuming Abdalla was talking about full time freelancing in the original post.) I know there isn't a game studio hiring on every corner, but you can still find them in all kinds of unexpected places. Not only does it build your credentials and network of friends in the industry who can help and refer each other, but you also learn how things work at the kinds of companies that may hire you as a freelancer. If you don't have any experience, it may seem less intimidating to hang out a freelance shingle. But what does it hurt to apply for a job? The worst they can say is no, and then you're no less employed than if you hadn't applied at all. And if they say yes, you get some great experience and get to meet interesting people.

    Apart from that, local meetups are great, although I admit I only have experience with them in the USA. In my area, companies always wander into local game dev meetups to poach people for AR/VR work.
     
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  17. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    In larger companies its often much more difficult to get budget for a full time position. Getting a contractor on a 3-6 month contract is often quite easy (in terms of the process). These contracts then get renewed over and over again.

    Even a small company like my previous employer was about 50% full-time, 50% contractor. Some of those contractors had been on the books for five or more years.

    Its certainly not rare in Australia, maybe a bit more so in the US (presumably as its easier to get rid of full-time employees)?
     
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  18. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    @Stranger-Games
    Are you sure your portfolio is as good as you think it is? Because from what I can see from clicking on your links you haven't really done much at all. Two assets without enough reviews to get a rating, an empty youtube channel, and a website with no released games and amateurish graphics. The Age of Grit project looks to have a bit of polish (still very indie) but its unclear what your role is in the project, and its still unreleased.

    Your portfolio doesn't have to have complete games, but it needs to have complete 'things'. Tutorials are an easy one to complete, but they need to be very interesting or you need to have a lot of them. Asset store products are fine, but your current offering are niche and don't look very polished. Obviously complete games are better again, particularly if you played a major role.

    And if you don't have a great portfolio, then you have to build up client relationships by starting small, doing good work, and being nice to deal with.

    EDIT: I hope this doesn't come across as harsh, its not meant to be. I hire people now and again (including a few from this thread), and this is my impression of how you present. Doesn't mean you don't do great work, but I can't tell from what I can see.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  19. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Perhaps I should rephrase it.

     
  20. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    It's cheaper for the company because they don't have to guarantee hours, pay benefits and tax withholding, etc., and they can terminate the contract whenever they want. It's not so good for the contractor, however, unless you can negotiate a rate that compensates for that, which is probably higher than you think, so it's something to keep in mind when setting rates.
     
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  21. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Indeed. I'm also from Aus, and when we asked the relevant government department about this we were told that contractors in scenarios similar to the described would likely pass an employee status test, and be legally considered as such. That would mean that we could be held liable for a bunch of the things you mentioned despite what the contract said. That was quite some time ago, but it's not the kind of thing I'd expect to have changed. To be fair, that was the interpretation of a government representative who clearly wanted us to do things a certain way. It could be that if we'd got a second opinion we'd have been advised differently.

    In any case, as much as that's an inconvenience for creative industries and other areas where that approach could be valid, in some it's a common way to exploit people. Businesses could get their labor as contractors rather than employees, and sidestep a bunch of responsibilities that they should have.
     
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  22. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    It's similar in the USA. It's also why companies like JohnnyA's previous employer had a 50-50 mix. You can't legally have a company that's just full-time "contractors." But if you can shave off, say, 20% of your costs by making half of them contractors, that's 20% profit for the company. The only reason why I'm harping on it in this thread is that a lot of freelancers, especially those without a lot of experience, get taken advantage of. On the flip side, vetting often isn't as thorough for contractors, so the company is taking a risk. This is why freelancers need a strong portfolio and strong references.
     
  23. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    In my previous company we had usually had a handful of freelancers/contractors at any given time, but the were usually there for something very specialized, and typically the type of folks who never took full time gigs anyway.
     
  24. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I wish it was like that in Aus. The current law lets us massively abuse contract and temporary laborers via labor hire arrangements. In my day job I've got guys who have been working for the company for a decade who I don't have to pay holiday or sick leave to. I can fire them at a moments notice without any reason or compensation. I don't need to pay them overtime, no matter how many hours they work. And I don't need to give them any guaranteed hours.

    Its a loophole that really needs to be closed up.

    Edit: For the record the company is nice and tends not to abuse the relationship that much. But the fact is we could. Relying on corporations to be nice and non exploitative is a bad idea.
     
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  25. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    Not always the case. At previously mentioned company they wanted people to become full-time permanent employees, contractors were much more expensive for them (contract rates were close to double the full-time rates which more than made up for holidays, sick leave, long service, termination payments, etc).
     
  26. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Was this the case around a decade ago? That's when we were asking questions about it. Could be your loophole is different to what we were asking about at the time, though.
     
  27. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Dunno. I've only been involved in employing people in Australia for about 18 months.
     
  28. Stranger-Games

    Stranger-Games

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    Thank you for your constructive feedback. I believe the portfolio page underrepresented my skills since I believe I have complete things and even games.
    Here is a new page that I rushed with more comprehensive history of me as the owner of Stranger Games and more comprehensive portfolio. It still needs a lot of improvement, and more explanation. Initial feedback will be greatly appreciated.
     
  29. Stranger-Games

    Stranger-Games

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    @JohnnyA
    Actually you are right, I should update the portfolio to make it clear what I worked on exactly in what project. I did nearly 80% of programming for Age of Grit which the steam early access release is scheduled to be soon.

    Andy from @iqsoup , the owner of Age of Grit is a long term client and I believe he is very satisfied. Getting new clients is tough though if you can't convince them to actually start working with you. I believe if a client who has good vision of what he wants to create actually started worked with us he will definitely get satisfied because of the long and diverse experience with unity and game development we have.

    The problem is not my individual problem. I know other designers, 3d modelers, programmers with actual great experience and portfolio having difficulties making living working online.
    Perhaps one common cause is the bad marketing and misrepresentation of the skills. Also from the comments I guess being inactive on social media, is another common reason. Thank you everyone for your constructive feedback and I hope everybody can learn something from the thread.
     
  30. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Not necessarily, I don’t do social media almost at all, a lot of folks I know don’t. But staying in touch with past contacts and people irl helps. I use LinkedIn, but my contacts are only people I actually know, it’s just a way for them to ping me when something comes up.
     
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  31. eatsleepindie

    eatsleepindie

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    My two cents: if you think it's bad now, wait until the next recession. I've been through several as a freelancer and the work dries up because fewer people can afford to hire someone. Then people tend to get in a position where they need a financial miracle, and the percentage of non-paying jobs goes through roof.

    The only way to survive long-term as a freelancer is to be adamant in saving money to ride out the lulls, and they can be brutal in how long they can last. There is a very long list of circumstances and coincidences that can affect the outcome of searching for work, and your skill sets are sadly just one of them - it can literally come down to the fact that the potential client had a chat with another developer last night and it turns out they both loved playing Ultima Online, and that sense of kinship and nostalgia will be hard to top even if you're a better candidate. If you do find long-term work - if you work full-time for a single client then your income is reliant on their ability to pay you - then if they screw up financially, have an emergency, bail on the game, etc. you are suddenly back to looking for work, often times without warning.

    Develop long-term relationships with clients; repeat work can come at the times when you need it most. Meet your deadlines, get the work done, make sure your client is informed and happy, and save your money. If they break a leg and cannot work, you'll likely be put on the back burner until they recover financially, which will take much longer than the time required for the bone to heal. Freelancing is like having any other job with the exception that on any given day, when you show up at the office they'll send you home for good; not because of sub-par work, not because of any lack of dedication of talent on your end, but for a long list of potential reasons that could be out of both you and the clients control. Always, always be ready to lose your job - this is where the savings comes in.

    That's the gig. Pretty much everything you said was difficult comes with the territory along with a very long list of other trials, obstacles, stress, and those days where the gig just sucks everything you love out of that thing you love to do. Personally I love it for all its mind-numbinglly frustrating moments because it makes landing that 40-hour week at your requested rate gig that is scheduled to last 18+ months taste so sweet.

    I've been freelancing since I was 20 and am now 36. The absolute best advice I can give is to save your money, and not just because you'll have lulls to ride out, but it'll also keep you from jumping on that first gig that comes along that you maybe feel hesitant to take but feel obligated to sign on for due to your current financial constraints. It can snowball if you jump at gigs because you need the money, which is why the savings are so important. Your time is better spent honing your craft, investing time into refining your process and even working on your own project versus jumping on the first gig that comes along because you need to pay your bills.

    Best of luck.

    PS. Save your money!
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  32. Stranger-Games

    Stranger-Games

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    Wow, I can relate pretty much to those well crafted words!
    Good luck for both of us!
     
  33. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    This is really important, and is one of the things that inexperienced people overlook that results in undervaluing their time.

    As a full-time employee you get paid for somewhere in the vicinity of ~2000 hours per year. If you're inactive during any of those hours because there isn't a task for you to be doing right that second it's your employer's problem, they haven't fully optimised their resource utilisation.

    As a contractor or freelancer, you get paid for the hours you find contracts for. Assuming you still want to work normal ~40 hour weeks, this puts a maximum income of ~2000 * (hourly rate). But... you will not get 100% resource utilisation. Nowhere near that! For starters, the time you spend looking for contracts? Nobody pays for that. The time you spend following up leads? Nobody pays for that, and most leads won't lead to work. Nobody pays you to negotiate a contract, or network, or get your name / brand out there, or to answer calls/emails making enquiries. And , as in @eatsleepindie's post, there will be dry periods where you just won't find any work. Nobody pays you for that time, either. Between all of that stuff I wouldn't be surprised if your billable hours are significantly less than 1000 per year, even if you're doing 40+ hour weeks most of the time.

    On top of that, there's a whole bunch of costs that you don't have a boss covering. Hardware, office space, software licensing. They're cheap compared to your wages, but don't forget to budget for them, even accounting for non-billable hours.

    So yes, definitely save your money. Also, know your actual value, know your real, full costs, and budget accordingly so you know your savings and expenditure targets for all of your time, not just the billable hours. And if your rate as a freelancer isn't at least double whatever you got paid per-hour at your last (similar) job then chances are that you're under charging.
     
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  34. AndersMalmgren

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    Or get paid for all those 2k hours :p
     
  35. JohnnyA

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    I'm not sure social media is that relevant (unless this forum is social media?!?), but if its your livelihood on the line then you should be looking to polish everything, and be brutal with yourself. Every link in your signature looks, at best, average. You might not be a graphic artist but they all scream to me that you aren't professional.

    Use a nice website template, remove the apps that don't have nice graphics, get some client testimonials, link to actual on store content, etc. If you can't do this stuff, spend a few hundred dollars on someone who can.
     
  36. Kiwasi

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    That's not the way freelancing works. You won't ever get close to 100% billable hours.
     
  37. AndersMalmgren

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    I run my own consultant business and both me and my employees are hired 100 procent time per year. Not counting vacation and sickleave offcourse. Consulting is same thing as freelancing?
     
  38. Kiwasi

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    Well I can't argue with that can I. Well done.
     
  39. angrypenguin

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    I wouldn't say "ever", because if you hit an area with enough demand you could get months of work queued up and end up turning people away. That won't happen for most people, but it's quite possible. I know of at least one local in game development who I suspect would have reached that point - highly specialist, incredibly good at what they do, lots of demand, limited supply, great reputation. Basically, I suspect that he would be relatively high on the list of people to call for anyone significant who ran into the particular type of problems he solved.

    That said, I don't believe "100% billable" in a literal sense unless you're doing stuff like your own bookkeeping on time that your clients are paying for. But that's more of a linguisitc debate than a practical one.
     
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  40. AndersMalmgren

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    I have outsourced that to a book keeping company, much better use that time to work on stuff that generate money. Plus I can consult them on tax lopeholes. Which here in sweden is very important because of high taxes on salary.
     
  41. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    Thanks, I'm not unique, I know several old co-workers from when I were employed that have done the same thing. Sweden has seen many good years in IT, and I don't think it will slow down, IT is core business for virtually everybody today.
     
  42. ippdev

    ippdev

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    I have been freelancing since 16 and I am 61. Save your cash. Capitalism rocks. Then you won't get stuck with crap clients just to put food in the fridge and a roof over your dev computer. I have had more than my fair share. The one thing I can state is that i have leaned tricks and shortcuts, optimizations and parts of the API I may never have come across whilst satisfying those clients needs and strictures. Or I starved. It has led to being in demand to move to other countries to run their studio..which I have no desire to do..and work I have no time to do. I nailed a great long term gig I can do remotely, show up for two hours every two weeks for a meeting and pick up my paycheque and I am making a difference in the world with the software I am involved in creating as the senior Unity dev on the team.[AEC industries for the creator of Revit and the BIM spec used across the industry] All the experience with crap clients or conversely low paying clients that were not crap to deal with personally but just didn't have the big bucks yet kept me proficient and able to rapidly solve problems in areas that the advanced C# devs on the team were not able to suss out or begin to understand how the underlying systems for rendering come into play...let alone devising rotation systems for cameras and nav. C# folks don't deal much with multiplying quaternions in their windoze business forms paradigms very often. This is a necessary part of Unity dev esoterica. Unity is becoming the immersive 3dOS that ports to any other OS. If you are a freelancer do not assume that games are the biggest slice of that pie. The recent 35% jump. IIRC, in need for Unity devs is not because the game industry exploded. It is because many other industries are adopting Untiy as a viz tool to demonstrate their products or devise interfaces that more adequately express the paradigm of their industry than windoze business forms tables and ledgers with some jpegs.
     
  43. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    Since I added Unity in my portfolio I get the occasional request for Unity assignments, I have even been to a interview and they wanted my services, but when we came to the price point it was too high. I used the same price point I do for enterprise work so it's seems gaming studios are more price sensitive than enterprise companies.
     
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  44. QFSW

    QFSW

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    Whilst an impressive feat (I do mean that) I think you slightly missed what penguin was saying. You may be busy 100% of the time, but not all of that time is paid work (as you said, having an accountant helps, but there's still time where you're doing stuff that isn't billable)
     
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  45. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    No, I do bill for 100 procent of my time actually. Some people stop the clock when they are doing some none billable stuff, I dont and to be honest I don't think there are many hours per year of such stuff.
     
  46. QFSW

    QFSW

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    So do you bill discussing the job before even starting it?
     
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  47. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    No, but let's say I put down 2 hours total for my current assignment, I have been there for 3 years so it's a rounding error in the equation
     
  48. QFSW

    QFSW

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    I don't really feel like penguin was talking about doing a single job for years on end when he was talking about this stuff, but rather various jobs for various different people throughout the year. Anyways, the details aren't the point here, I think we get what he meant. There's unpaid overhead that an equivalent job wouldn't have
     
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  49. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Indeed. For most freelancers a singificant part of their income is from constantly getting new jobs. That's a numbers game, you won't get all of the jobs you pitch for. So immediately there's a bunch of hours you're not billing for, but which have to be budgeted for.

    Yeah, it's an industry lots of people want to work in, so the rates reflect that.
     
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  50. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    Yeah, but also alot of young people who do not know how to charge properly for their services