How do you learn & make your game without your idea being stolen or after your idea has been stolen?

Honing your craft. Completing something you are proud of. That is what I was stating. Are you trying to be a know it all? I painted 100+ paintings before I finally hit the lick. I drew daily for 20+ years before I could realistically say i could draw anything I put my mind to. I had clients pay me to learn Unity and do what i wanted doing their stuff so i could have the chops honed I needed for my Mission Modules. I recorded 100 versions of crap before I finally made an album that rocked peoples face off. I would not show the crap off as an accomplishment because I knew I could do better given the time and dedication to each craft I have mastered.

 

That's entirely possible and wouldn't be the first time given the medium we're conversing in. From my viewpoint, here's what I see:

You asked whether sharing your idea would result in theft of that idea.

Several developers who have a lot of professional experience in game development (20+ years for me) answered you by essentially saying "don't worry about it." Some developers who have not released games in a professional capacity also answered you by essentially saying "yeah, I'd be worried about that, too."

You took the professional advice as being antagonistic, and you took the non-professional advice as what you wanted to hear.

Instead of simply accepting that different people have different viewpoints based on their experience, you instead accuse those with a different viewpoint from your own as being deliberately antagonistic and trying to persecute you somehow.

Now if you can calmly explain where I went wrong in that analysis, and I agree with your explanation, I'll be more than happy to change my views.

 

I hear the advice I just don't think it's good advice based on my circumstances, regardless of where it comes from, and I think it's delivered in a way that's either intended to be aggressive and/or hostile and antagonistic or that it's just plain chest-beating.

I've said myself that we're different people with different viewpoints here doing different things for different reasons and again you seem to have overlooked that to the extent that you're actually repeating that back to me.

I've been working in the field for twenty plus years therefore I can say what I like and I'm right about all of it, as far as I'm concerned, just isn't a valid response.

 

Or you simply aren't deserving of the advice people are trying to offer.

 

I see. Here's a new answer for you:

Don't share your idea, because people here will absolutely steal it and make the game. In fact, that's why a lot of us are trying to coax you into the idea that the idea doesn't matter, because in reality we're just greedy, antagonistic persecutors waiting with bated breath for you to post your idea so we can steal it and make millions.

Better?

 

@ippdev's path is both admirable and impressive. I offer that @Centigrade should follow @ippdev's path. Take the time to create 100s of products, over the course of many years, to develop the skill that will one day enable him to "rocks peoples faces." I recommend that rather than starting with his magnum opus idea, he might start with something small and trivial. Crawl; walk; run - in order.

Gigi

 

Also...

Are you in the habit of stating opinions that you don't feel are correct? Neither am I. I say what I want and of course I feel as if I'm right about it. That's the whole point of having an opinion. It doesn't mean I AM right about it, and I'm happy to listen to opposing viewpoints, but of course I feel that I'm right about what I say when giving advice. Why the hell else would I give it?

You just don't want to hear opposing advice, and again I'm not sure why you asked for it other than to prove to yourself that it's better to waste time in here than it is to actually make a game.

And that's it. I'm really finished this time. I have no doubt you'll come back with some thought about how much of a meanie I am. Have fun.

 

From my point of view, that's how you're coming across.

Edit: I didn't mean the "meanie" part, that was added after I posted my comment. If we could keep this out of the realm of Lord of the Flies I think it would be helpful.

 

You are correct somewhat and I was a child prodigy in art much to the begrudgement of my drill sergeant father who preferred i be a quarterback or some other bozo the drooldonkey profession and have a "real job". I spent all day in boring school classes I had already learned drawing on every scrap of blank paper and throwing them away promptly if I got one finger wrong or arm foreshortening incorrect. Iterate..hone..trash,,iterate..hone... trash..iterate..voila!. I used them as currency giving the drawings of the Silver Surfer, Mr. Spock, Einstein, John Lennon, Spiderman, Dracula, The Mummy, Vampirella..(No DC bullcrap for me LOL)_ and whatever tweaked my ability to try and master to the bullies who would then cover my ass and tell the other blowhards to leave me alone. We have not seen this fellows work but from his writing about the many things he has tried and commentary about why he dropped them I assess that it is the quality he is concerned about. Being different and not being a run of the mill type. Ergo my advice to hone his craft. That may be a part of what you are stating but the advice to release in short time frames what he is doing does not seem to be the ticket. It has worked for you and you are happy with that. That also is a product of your managing teams of software developers in a different field. I have characters i have for some of my projects that took three or four weeks to detail and redo till I was satisfied..but not totally. Lord help me I release a game and have the wolves and trolls here have a bevy of crap to troll me over..LOL..Unity's shadows piss me off. I have a procedural IK combat system i spent months on it that works dandy but I do not know if I can ever reach the cinematic real world quality i strive for and I will punch it and refactor it and ponder it till it is the best i can do. Then it might go in a folder and never see the light of day..or not..I spent a good long time figuring out the basis of a spline constrained kata system in Cinema 4D I could animate with numbers and not keyframes years prior and resurrected it for Unity and a large project I was hired as lead for.

 

It's been said before but I thought I'd throw in my two cents. The actual idea doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the execution of the idea. There's more to a game than simply an idea. Two people can have the exact same starting idea and the end product can end up being completely different because of all the stuff it takes to get there. Maybe they have completely different art styles, maybe one adds stuff the other doesn't, and so on. You might describe your idea, even show pictures, but they're only going on their interpretation of the idea that exists in your head. As you go developing your game, you make so many little adjustments and changes and personal touches that the end result is just going to be drastically different--a game is a series of ideas.
A great example of execution vs idea would be Minecraft--it's based on mechanics from another game that had a lot of similarities (the same idea), so why did Minecraft go big when the other didn't? Why haven't any of the minecraft clones hit the same level of success? Execution, marketing, timing, etc. An idea alone isn't enough--you need the ability to properly capitalize on the idea. The reverse is also true--just because someone uses your idea doesn't mean they'll be successful with it (look at the gazillions of Minecraft clones).

The other thing is that people mostly aren't interested in raw unproven ideas, they're interested in proven money making ideas--that's when they start paying attention. The Angry Birds clones didn't start popping up until the game hit it big for example, and Angry Birds was out for a whole year before it hit big. As it is right now, you (like most of us) are just a nobody on the internet with some ideas just like everybody else in an endless sea of ideas. And the people with the capacity to properly execute on a stolen idea...already have too many of their own ideas to waste time on somebody else's idea, they're too busy getting stuff done.

 

He is right many times and why I never spoke to it prior as I agreed with him given the poster and their trajectory. centigrade has a different flavor and that needed speaking to...or not I decided a few hard ciders in i needed to vent some BS..LOL.. I also agree with Ony in that he does need to sit down and get on it (no need for spanking him..he is doing a fine job of that himself)..then back to what i state..iterate..trash. iterate..hone..trash..iterate ..hone..voila..next peg to knock down..same deal. This is a process and can take weeks to years depending on one's personal standards and what impresses ones self and the nature of the process one seeks to master..

 

The thing is, my perspective is informed by my vision of what it is I want to do, really just as a hobby; not to to make money. People seem to be missing that.

It's not like I think I've stumbled on the next big social networking phenomenon or that I think I've got the killer app to end all killer apps, I don't, I've just managed to formulate an idea that makes me want to get out of bed in the morning and try and create something.

What works in the market, for me, is largely beside the point. I don't want to be a part of the app lottery, I'll be happy if I can have some fun while I develop some coding skills and be able to tell people I'm actually working on something.

I see the value from a "security" standpoint of learning the craft from lots of small apps so that I can feel confident that someone's not going to look at what I'm doing and steal my thunder but to be honest in as much as my crappy worthless idea is more valuable to me than any number of ideas that could make a person a fortune, advice on how to be competitive in the apps market is just not really of any value to me.

I wish I could say that I'm grateful for the advice but if you really want to get into it it's not really advice I solicited (that's not why I started the thread) and really and truly it just comes across like hostility.

Sorry guys but there it is.

 

I didn't. Christmas is as good a day as any to begin gifting yourself.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of hostility. Sometimes I think people feel "professional" if they talk like that. There's also a lot of bragging and chest beating. I suspect even some "big fish" stories...

But it's really fascinating, these folks are representative of the game development community. If you phrase your questions or comments right, you can get answers to some questions that would take you ages to figure out on your own.

You just have to deal with being talked-down to a little. Worth it IMO.

 

Guilty as charged..here it is. i got bragging rights. It was my first sculpture.. You will have to excuse me for being proud of my accomplishment.



This is my rock your face off music
I will be trying to put on the rock opera "A House Of Cards" again in 2015. It almost went on a world tour in 2001 with Pam Glotzbach, the grand dame of theatre in Atlanta and sitting on theatre boards in NYC, LA and Chicago as producer. Then they blew up the towers and folks told me if I put it on I would go to jail.. BS. I copyrighted it in 1988. It featured stolen elections, jackboots, crooked officials, kangaroo court trials and exploding towers, false flag terrorists with the Head Honchos and Four Mercenary Buffoons versus the Cosmic Clowns.. Based on The Tarot Major Arcana. My game projects are closely related to it. I am going to bill it "the pre 911 rock opera for a post 911 era". The other album at the music link is a three piece knockdown rock band I fronted. I love backing up my "brags and chest beating" with real world stuff when subtle trolling is afoot..

Had a good PM convo with centigrade. He is on track and ready to roll.

 

Not sure whether to be impressed, or a little bit freaked out.

 

If you find any of this aggressive,hostile or antagonistic just wait till you release a game and have players. They will happily point out in great detail and very aggressively everything that is wrong with your game, you personally and more than likely your mother as well.

If you want to make games, having a thick skin is as at least as important as ideas or abilities.

 

If you're concerned about people taking your ideas, integrate some Disney into them. That's how I keep the school's hands off my work. I load my projects up with so much copyright protected material (just enough from 3+ publishers) that it isn't worth taking. Hide images in the scenery, hide copyright protected sound tracks in your audio, etc.

If people are out to steal originality, then describe your game as a combination of mechanics from other games. If someone tries to steal it, they'll probably rip off the right games, but fail to guess what you are planning to implement.

 

I understand, but I think I said it less pretentiously than "everybody knows"

But yeah, you have a point. If you put it as absolute as "ideas don't matter" it does ring hollow. If you bring it down to a more reasonable sentence though, it does have truth to it.

 

I do exactly the same thing.

 

I kinda freaked myself out when I hit the post thread button..LOL. Like..uh oh.. I just put my fave work up for a gander in the den of wolves..now what?? But I decided I ain't gonna be a corporate whore with my arts in 2015 and I have had it up to my ears with freelance clients projects that essentially sucked wind for the most part so I gotta get used to letting it all hang out in public, so to speak. I am going to tutor centigrade on his project and how to turn chops and portfolio into bread and butter gigs to support your personal work.

 

It does nor matter one iota if you do it for a hobby or not. The answer is still the same. Your idea is worthless to us. It might be very very valuable to yourself, but to the rest of humanity it as irrelevant. Up until you make it a complete and public game. Only at that point will the idea have any value to the rest of the people.

[qoute]
I see the value from a "security" standpoint of learning the craft from lots of small apps so that I can feel confident that someone's not going to look at what I'm doing and steal my thunder but to be honest in as much as my crappy worthless idea is more valuable to me than any number of ideas that could make a person a fortune, advice on how to be competitive in the apps market is just not really of any value to me.
[/QUOTE]

The reason to make small projects is NOT for security of your idea. The reason to do small projects is to hone your skills and not to burn yourself out. With a large project you will start out energetic and you will learn new things in the beginning, but the progress will be slow. And after a few weeks you look at the stuff that needs doing and you realize that you only have completed 0.01% of the game and you are not even happy with that part. And then the depression sets in about never being able to complete it. If you make smaller simpler projects you are able to learn new things while still having a reachable goal. After a few weeks you have completed 90% of it and you have a finite list of things that still need doing. You might not be satisfied with what you made, but at least after you have finished it. You can then either throw it all away or make public. But when you have a big project, you can't throw it away or make public because it is still not finished. And that means that you get stuck in a big project without any visible progression, which is really demotivating.

After you have made multiple small projects, you can then start on your magnus opus and you will notice that your progress is much quicker. You know how you can solve things. You know what is good or not. You know when you need to scrap parts and remake it.

Sorry, but I don't remember seeing any advice in this topic about the app market. However, what I do see is someone that asks for advice, but then just throws away all the advice that he is given because it does not match what he was expecting. And yes, that can make people more hostile.

If you have good counter arguments against the advice given, then please give it. But just ignoring the advice and using arguments that are not related(e.g. "it is for a hobby, not for profit") is just increasing the hostility because it sounds like you are not listening to what we are saying. For example, you are still worried about the theft of the idea without giving any rational argument for why. The only proof we have that ideas don't get stolen is that the only threads talking about stolen ideas on this forum talk about how much they need to worry about it, similar to your opening post. There are no threads about ideas stolen. There are threads about clones, but that requires a finished game. As we said, an idea only has value after it has been made into something.

 

The other approach whilst keeping to the above framework is to divide the huge project into granular modules and complete those step by step. Need a hoverboard or motorcycle or space fighter ship?. Spend some time working out the dynamics so you get that right..Then spend time on the rider/pilot characters till you have that skill of rigging and texturing and pulling points and poly's around. Then combine those two and develop your Mecanim controller and learn to script that so it combines the character and vehicle dynamics. tweak till satisfied. Then do the environment or opponents or weapons one piece at a time and make each interactive and figure out the triggers and the scripts needed to pass info to the central manager. Keep at the granular approach and soon..or not.. you have your larger project in gear and have been learning the chops along the way. Get used to trashing work if not up to the final vision you had in mind. You learn something each iteration. Get used to altering the original paradigm as you discover what works and what doesn't. This approach gets you to the end point and doesn't sacrifice your time in non related areas. Essentially when you have completed each granular module you have another piece of your bigger puzzle in place. That last 10% will be a bitch though and may take as long as the first 90%. I think this is where folks get discouraged more often than not. Get used to being your biggest critic because when you release it ...well..it isn't all gonna be a bed of roses and the commentary will fly. You will get pats on the back and right hooks to the jaw so you better be ready to roll with the punches.

 

That is good advice, but doesn't work for all kinds of projects. Especially projects like MMOs which are popular among starters without any previous knowledge. Also, it doesn't really work for game programming in general. It works up to a certain point until you end up in a situation where everything is linked to everything else and the only solution is to scrap it all. The actual granular parts you could build are mostly all already built by Unity. e.g. the particle system, model animation, etc.

Especially for a beginner in programming it is really difficult to split everything up in isolated parts that have limited interaction which each other, which is basically a requirement for big projects to be able to keep your sanity and speed.

 

That is why I offered to tutor him after he pm-ed me. I ain't gonna write his stuff for him but give him the knowledge he needs to develop a central management system to integrate the granular parts.. He is not doing an MMO. He is in a kind of unique situation and has free time galore and does not need money for living expenses. He is essentially sending himself to University and this is his thesis. so to speak.

 

So, there's something about your game concept that you think is valuable enough for people to bother stealing.
And you may be right. Why not? Not all ideas are worthless.

Some ideas are just worth stealing - not in absolute, but marginally, e.g. if somebody were making something that works somewhat like what you're trying to make, and they just missed that one sparkle to make it shine...

In general, others will not steal your ideas, instead they will (try) to imitate your successes. Being copied is more likely in this case, but it won't make you (any more) depressed, since you are already successful!

Although you may be the very first person that came up with an idea (but probably not!), chances are about 10 to 100 people are about to have the same idea - because that's how society and creativity interact! - so, just because something similar to what you thought emerges somewhere else doesn't mean IP theft.

From a practical point of view if your questions are technical enough and focused enough, you would normally get away with it - get help without having to expose your game concept. Think "nautilus". Having said that... it is a sign of mmh, immaturity (paranoia?) to readily worry about being copied in a field where the major issue is getting noticed.

Now, if you really believe your idea is valuable in and of itself a good move might be setting up a Kickstarter pitch and finding out how much enthusiasm you can get from potential players. Then one of two things would happen:

• Turns out your idea is awesome, or you're a genius at putting out there, or both. Then you don't give a damn about being copied because you already got your backers. And you still need to make a good game!
• Turns out your Kickstarter is a fail, which doesn't mean your idea is bad (definitely not!) but at least it doesn't look like people are gonna jump on it so it's up to you to build a great game.

Keep in mind that if every game mechanic had a design patent attached to it, nobody would be able to make anything. It's not always right to "steal" ideas but the law and morals are not complete strangers. Ideas are something that you can keep a secret (which very often won't benefit you). Or you are somewhat expected to let them drop in a common pot. Sometimes it may feel unfair but your ideas wouldn't exist without the common pot...

Game development is tough but getting something done (like, the whole game, but also every small increment towards getting it done) is rewarding - this is how you find whether you got the soul and the mettle to be a dev.

Conclusion? focus on getting something done, don't worry about this stuff.

 

It's a Christmas gift! Ten senior developers are guiding you toward a path that is more likely to lead to happiness, skill growth, and success while also helping to keep the depression at bay. Merry Christmas from your future self!

Gigi

 

Hey guys, thanks so much for all of the responses, believe it or not, ultimately it is all valuable (at least on some level).

I've been trying to keep the thread balanced and objective and to respond within the context of the thread and how the discussion's developed but I guess it's the kind of situation where if you bow to one you moon another.

Thanks and keep posting, I'm out, but feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

 

Haha, Awesome! That advice always makes everyone in college laugh.

And if you go far enough around the world, you're bowing to that person's butt.

 

Your game and your concept will be stolen if it's any good. This is the basis of creativity, and it shouldn't surprise you. You're inherently "stealing" the concepts of others by creating a game. Why do you think genres exist? Somebody first came up with the concept of an FPS (John Carmak of ID Software if I remember the spelling right), and if a lot of "intellectual property" folks had their way, ID software would be the only company allowed to make an FPS. How many indies would that screw?

Your game concepts WILL be stolen if they're any good. The question shouldn't be "how do I stop people from stealing my concept", any more than you worried about stealing the concepts of others to make a game. It should be "can I come up with a concept that's worth stealing?"

 

I think the idea of the FPS is derived from arcade duck shooting galleries which is derived from carnival versions which is derived from clay pigeon shooting. Carmacks innovations were to add scary monsters and super creeps and moving through an environment which could be attributed to military training.

 

Most of the posts in this thread have been touching on this question, but I'm going to offer a counter question. How similar is your idea to other games? I ask this simply because most games, especially those that are highly successful, are typically inspired if not outright attempts to copy mechanics from other games.

As others have said, what will set your game apart from the rest will not be the idea but the execution of it. You can have the most fantastic idea in the world, but if your execution of it isn't any good then people will have a much easier time copying it.

A good game, though it will still have those trying to copy it, will be much harder to clone. There is a reason after all that while many MMOs are called "WoW clones", none of them have approached the success of WoW. It is simply because Blizzard did it right first.

 

My point was that every game idea borrows from other ideas. We could trace the FPS back to the dawn of time if we wanted.

 

I think the meanie part comes from Ony using the Roseanne Barr (I think that's her) picture with a snarl on her face. Face it, choosing an image as an avatar will have positive, neutral, or negative effects on how others perceive what you communicated. You avatar name will as well. Those that claim those choices shouldn't matter and don't influence the target audience are being duplicitous. I used to turn off avatar images, inline images, and signatures too and would have avatar names to had it allowed in the old forums.

As far as stealing your game, the audience is more likely they are going to think it's boring, it's stupid, or it's a rip-off of a prior successful ideal.

The thing you have to ask yourself are the forum audiences really interested in gaming or are they interested in whiling away the time? If games where such a blast they'd be playing them. If they had an hankering to make a game that was originally their own they'd be doing that. They are not though are they? But they could be. I put together an derivative game in less than a week and published it 3 places with Unity Free and the Asset Store and I'm surprised: it looks professional and it's a pleasant way to while away 5 - 30 minutes waiting. I didn't write a single line of code or even do anything outside of altering a few textures in GIMP.

Unity is that easy now, well if you avoid the Windows Store or Windows Phone. However, you don't want to target hardware older than 1 year truthfully unless you have lots of patience for optimizing rather than making a fun game. If you're interested in being a tech nerd then target old hardware but otherwise I'd concentrate sensibly on targeting new HW and making fun games. I am buying 7" & 10" KitKat Androids with quad core CPUs in off brands (together less than $200) so I can concentrate on the game and not the optimizing for old HW. Runs on iPod Touch 4th Gen? Fine, except in optimizing it I had to remove all the features that made it unique in game play.

Has my game made a sale? No, not even from me, but it's not a bad game. Oh what basis could I call it a bad game? Because I bought assets to create it? Isn't that what Zynga & Sega do too? Now for those that say Zynga and Sega are bad too but I my only problem is they way they try to wheedle money out of your bank. They have stock holders they behave irrationally to keep the stock price high. An indie game maker doesn't have that problem. I'm still pleased with the game I made even if it doesn't sale a single copy. Brand name games of the same genre are doing quite well as you'd expect with Sonic the Hedge Hog and Looney Tunes. The game I published looks as good as the Sonic game but not on the level of the Looney Tunes games which is quite good visually but the game play is the same. I do want to expand it though but that will have to wait until I finish painting the house.

 

I dont think anyone is going to steal your idea.

 

Uhm, that's not Rosanne Barr, that's me.

 

Most indie devs cant even be bothered to finish there own games i dont think they are going to ape an untested idea.

 

What ya see is what ya get!~ LOL! Merry Christmas girl

 

Indeed. You too, ippdev.

 

Kinda what I was reiterating. I was not stepping on your toes but reinforcing what you were alluding to.

 

You know, nobody said this... I read everything, I'm pretty sure... learn how to make games by making copies of other people's ideas.

Ideas will be stolen, so be proactive. Steal first.

 

Not to diminish the value of your game idea....
but game ideas are a dime a dozen. Literally.

I can't begin to tell you how many times someone has come to me and said "I have this great idea for a game. Let me tell you, and you make it , then we split the profits...."

Lol - I have to explain to them that the idea is by far the easiest part. By far.

Everyone has game ideas and everyone draws inspiration from the games they see and play.

If you have enough passion and drive to build a game - I totally encourage you. It can be fun and rewarding.

But my advice - do not waste anytime at all worrying about someone stealing your game idea.

It is by far the easiest part and really has no intrinsic value.

 

Is it a dime a dozen, or worth nothing? Cause less than a penny each is still something.

 

I understand what is trying to be communicated here but I disagree entirely with how this comes across. If an specific idea has no "intrinsic value", why put forth even a modicum of work to realize it? If all ideas are worthless than any idea is worth as much as any other, and you can implement any old thing. In fact pick the easiest idea to implement as its the "work" that matters the most right?

We all know this isn't true. We have countless examples of ideas and successes we are trying to implement right now. Everyone believes at least in part that their idea will change the world, be the next minecraft, the next angry birds, or the next WoW. Even if 99.99999% of them are wrong, black sheep do exist and the next golden idea followed up by a golden implementation is out there right now. Believing that you have it may in fact be a key to actually completing parts 2-100 of the project. Believing that you have that Golden idea may just get you through the long march of development that you must endure to be successful.

Dumb, stupid ideas may in fact be a dime a dozen. In fact it might even be useful to think of them that way. Brilliant ideas can literally change the entire world. If we all thought of our own ideas as the latter and not the former then our entire society would collapse. It doesn't matter how many times your own ideas turned out to be the former and not the latter. You are a moronic idiot patent cleric right up until the time you turn into a world renown genius for that one world changing idea.

Do not kill the spirit of optimism and hope. It is critical to our time here. It is important to be realistic in all that you do. But believing that your own idea is just as stupid as everyone else's is not a realistic way to complete anything.

Oh and one last thing.... Merry Christmas

 

Brilliant ideas can NOT change the world, but the implementation of brilliant ideas can change the world. Without proper implementation, ideas are nothing.

 

@goat - <<-- This is for you. Merry Christmas.

 

i think this part is important

 

Yes, just for goat, but definitely not for anyone else, especially not for me.

Why didn't you just private massage him with that Ony?

Lets all bully the depressed guy that's really just here looking for something to give some kind of meaning to his life.

Ony, it's not that you don't want to talk to me that I care about, I don't, I'm glad, I just wish people like you didn't exist.

And why do you keep liking all my comments when you're arguing and attacking me? It just comes across as orchestrated antagonism.

Merry Christmas one and all!

QFT:

Hang on, lets pause for a second and look at that last part. I'm new here and new to all of this so I don't really know how any of this works but who are the people Gigiwoo is saying are "sitting on the fance", what and where is "the fance", and who are these people who are supposed to "know who they are"?

But that aside...

...but not in mine.

 

Oh god dont be such a drama queen, just add her to your ignore list.

 

You're not being bullied. You asked for advice and it was given to you. You proceeded to snub those who gave you advice you disagreed with. When you were called out on it you once again brought your depression into the discussion as something to hide behind.