Search Unity

  1. Megacity Metro Demo now available. Download now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Unity support for visionOS is now available. Learn more in our blog post.
    Dismiss Notice

How Close Can Indies Get To AAA Games?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Assembler-Maze, May 1, 2017.

  1. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Posts:
    3,144
    How are open-world lite-RPG games niche? They're the biggest AAA single-player genre out there right now.
     
    Deleted User likes this.
  2. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Unless you don't have any resources whatsoever (which kinda puts you out the running for these projects anyway) you can buy facefx and it does a pretty good job, plus it's used in AAA games as well.. Now amassing the shear volume of consitant voice actor content, there's a real issue..

    "But 3 years in they still haven't locked anything down, not the main gameplay, not the main progression, not the story, not the main character design, and everyone had its own vision because there was no unifying model to look at, you couldn't tell if something was good or not because it was new."

    Sounds like me..
     
  3. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    I agree they need to find a way to do less quest but longer and quality ones.
    It would cost lot of money, but making each quest or event with very specific gameplay and actions would make people forget it's a quest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    Deleted User likes this.
  4. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    the problem with better 'quests' is that it requires AI driven procedural gameplay, and this is very risky and complicated, especially with very high levels of polish.

    Doing these kinds of things with AAA polish -- very very hard, and any major mistakes could cost millions.
     
  5. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Posts:
    3,144
    Honestly, just Witcher 3 levels would be fine (even though it seems like I was just dissing it, I think it's a fantastic game). They don't have some kind of incredibly unique gameplay element, but nor are they your typical fetch quests.

    I think part of it is that there needs to be improved quest design, or really just the context of the quest. Witcher 3 quests often had significant amounts of dialog--well, not just dialog, but story--during its sidequests. They weren't quests for the sake of quests. They were designed to build out and further highlight the world of the game.

    They did have the monster hunts, but they made sense in the context of the character (a witcher).

    So if a game ONLY has quests that fulfill that--show some aspect of its world that can't really be addressed during the main plot--I think its quest design would be lauded.
     
  6. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,084
    That's like saying the only way to improve a car is to make it self-driving. There are plenty of ways we can improve questing and a lot of them involve eschewing what we consider to be huge degrees of polish. Right now in the AAA space, things are polished too much. All the rough edges are removed to the point where, in order to ensure a smooth experience, you get the same quest loop over and over again and then a stealth section to break things up a little and then the same quest loop over and over again.

    What we need are better designers, not algorithms to replace them.
     
    zombiegorilla and Martin_H like this.
  7. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    Why procedural ?
    You could have diffrent gameplay, like special weapons , turrets you can use, a special guest companion you can play, some ice spell you can use on a quest that can freeze rivers to cross them, a special power to drive some mecanic statue from distance ...
    I was meaning very specific quest not procedural, is what cost lot of money.
     
  8. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    I'm not sure face fx allow to to have the acting and animation of a ff15, you would get maybe the right face but that's not all there is, talking head dialog are slowly phasing out for full body reaction with correct expression.

    I mean the modeling isn't what I'm questioning.
    Harley exagerate just enough to show the level of quality, getting this right is still a high step, unless you cheat and have the right context (subdued emotion) and the right stylization (like Lost soul abide) to gave the perception of quality with minimal



    But then naysayer will tell you hollywood get away with the uber version of kuleshov effects so why not?

     
  9. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    Skyrim does that, (better I'm not sure), and majora's mask has top tier sidequest.
     
  10. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    The only way to really get quests past "fetch" "chase" "set piece" stuff is with emergent gameplay. That's why over 30 years of game design, nobody can really figure out how to make better quests than those. All we've gotten is much, much better set dressing.

    Emergent gameplay = procedural game play (or player driven game play in multiplayer and stuff)
     
  11. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    But can you describe emergent gameplay in a way that is implementable? Looks like a buzz word in this precise case ... Even the use of procedural rings wrong here and I'm the pcg cheerleader.
     
  12. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    Crusader Kings 2 is an example. In general, you need to generally look at genres/titles that are very far from mainstream and generally have a "strategy" aspect. How you translate these into AAA style games, not sure. You really need a very very dynamic world and I don't think that's ever really been done with high detail and fidelity. Technology might really not be there yet.

    Probably the closest in AAA is like GTA police responses, which are notoriously buggy.
     
  13. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    These are basic faction system and it was translated well with Shadow of mordor through design rather than technology. Except shadow of mordor tells uninteresting story because it's about killing orcs.
     
  14. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044


    I didn't play shadow of mordor, but it sounds like a step in the right direction.

    CK2 is not basic faction system, but it is also very abstract. It has most complex political system ever made in a game. But none of their systems would translate directly to third person detail levels, it is all more abstract.
     
  15. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    I have studied it and there is a talk about it, it's a utility based system (akin to the sims, so that's another reference) with a spreadsheet presentation that let the player fill the blank, it rely on the power of the brain to imagine stuff that are definitely not there. It also rely on the player putting back the random events chaos into strip down hallucinated narrative. :p



    In general most problem with emergent system is that to convey the right information to the player, CK2 cheat because you are essentially almost omniscient (you see all the traits and events, you are "many" characters), which limit the type of story told, unlike a quest where the POV is "narrative first person". It's a design issue, shadow of mordor tackle by having a "board" that "narrate" the state of the world and having enemy "react" to past events.
     
  16. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    Well it seems us "backwards" indie dev's will have to make do with what we have, or do I give up now because I don't have "body reaction with correct expression"?
     
  17. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    In my last playthrough, my wife had my chancellor assassinated so that I would have to promote my son to the position. That was not hallucinated narrative, that is what the AI did. You must read player reviews of the game and player reports of what happened in game. Hearing the mechanics is extremely different from seeing all the systems work in play.

    The AI itself is not super complex, but the environment has so many characters all interacting (many hundreds or thousands of characters). The complexity is not in a single AI doing fancy behaviour, the complexity is from richness. Trust me, this game (and the stories) are unlike any other game.

    It is, of course, much more a simulation than an actual game. It also depends very much on the rich interpersonal drama of medieval royalty (assassination, intrigue, family, war).
     
  18. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    The devs word, not mine, (Okay I have dramatized it a bit), the event are as dry as any event in this type of game, the fact they happen to character with stated motivation that are nothing but abstract number is where the blank start being filled.

    BUT the context of the discussion is about quest in AAA rpg, I would say spreadsheet story would be unacceptable standard. I still see the mechanics as just being an extension of faction mechanics, but here that's the presentation that matter. That's why I introduced Shadow of mordor, it innovate in many points:
    - Chokepoint where procedural cinematics happen (basically template filled by pcg character with variation of personality based utterance), we can recycle this in pcg place because we can do pcg chokepoint quite easily.
    - PCG character, they vary in shape and form, but also with personality and traits, the personality allow to select different animation and speech pattern and traits have them react differently to different action or events. It isn't complex but it is clever.
    - Relationboard, in order to show the shifting alliance and keep the player informed of the state of the world, there is a sequence after each mission that show effect of mission.
    - Mission as action, basically a mission is basically an extensive strategic turn, they can be see as typical fetch quest, but since cause and consequence linked together, they gave the illusion of events chain in CK2, similar type of event happen like having one of your loyal follower being killed by one of his bodyguard to take his place. And you don't just select and watch the consequence, you have to make them happen in the world by playing the action taken!
    - An active Intel system, not all information are spoon fed to the player, he must also find stuff by interrogating people on the field, for example discovering relation, location or state of some member, it keep the player active and focused on what's happening.

    Imho, we can perfect the system in many place (assuming AAA level):
    1. Innovate to have a more cinematic presentation than the relation board. Or more varied way to disseminate state change, like bard in or rumors (see fable).
    2. Have a more interesting world than Orc warlords to have variety of things happening.
    3. Evolve the mission structure to have less combat oriented actions and consequences. Playable diplomatic mission could be cool, I mean unlike strategy game where you click select and see random consequence decided by dice.

    I was just taking umbrage with the use of vague term initially, but also reducing things to technology excuses without actual foundation to support it. Its something I care about and I burn literally inside to make that game. However these kind of discussion make it clearer to me what's possible if I survive to make another game lol.
     
  19. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    CK2 is difficult to explain, and you do not do it justice. If you are interested read some reviews: http://kotaku.com/crusader-kings-ii-the-kotaku-re-review-1783955128

    Making the choices and stories in this kind of game work without abstract presentation - this is too big a problem for today. Technology is really not there yet. Maybe in 5 or 10 years. The richness here is really in thousands of AI agents all interacting, and the web of relationships.
     
  20. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    BRO, I'm holding myself to not make the typical wall of text I tend to spawn, I have many friends who are fan of all paradox games, I had to deal with that all days long, I read everything I could about the game, the faqs, the detail player reports, the working of the AI, I hunted down all the talk given on the subjects, and bought the game (along with europa and other paradox stuff), and I'm not even a strategy fan. You don't have to take my word on it when the dev say so. I get the experience might have a lasting impacts on you, but if we were to have a constructive feedback on design we have to look at it with dry mechanical design perspective, don't let your feeling get in the way. On top of that AI in game have been known for long time by practitioner to be only smoke and mirror, the player will hallucinate most of it. That or you have lofty expectation without structure to actually evaluate the outcomes, invoking technology isn't a magic way to solve things. I'm just frustrated you aren't basing all of this on anything solid lol. But anyway it's theoretical and opinion and nothing is true, everything is permitted. I'm out.
     
  21. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    I'm not taking offense, I just think that to have real discussion on game play like this it is out of scope for thread. This is not a thread for deep game design and emergent gameplay, it is a thread for screenshots. If you want to have a discussion about emergent / AI game play, make a thread and I'll definitely participate.

    If you want to talk about CK2 (or other games with strong emergent elements) I'm down, but I don't want to hijack another thread :p
     
  22. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    Well it was at least about AAA stuff lol :p But you kind of hitted a nerve by invoking implicitly feeling, my brother used to start going on a rants about how people have feeling and dreams when I try to explain why using drop shadows in legible text is a nono, especially if it's on a CV ROFL
     
  23. AntonyQS

    AntonyQS

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    24
    Take a look back at The Witcher and The Witcher 2 and you'll see the differences there. W3 made good on their accessibility and watered down the complex systems of 2 so most people could enjoy it without staring at a controller layout for hours. The Witcher 2 wasn't less of a success just because it lacked the marketing scale of W3...it was a difficult game to get into unless you put the effort into learning the systems. That's why I still consider rogue-likes and Soulsborne games to be somewhat niche; they require more than running through a narrative and killing stuff to get the best out of them imo.

    W3 still retained that layer of hardcore RPGs if you look for it, like the crafting and potion making etc. I went through the entire game using only the gear I looted and the bombs I *had* to make and still had a great time.

    To be honest, lite-RPGs are probably one of the only options out there these days for pure single player experiences in the big budget domain, alongside the campaigns of your Uncharted 4's and Titanfall 2's.

    After all is said and done though, I think what a lot of it boils down to is exposure of the product. Flappy bird was independently developed and managed to do quite well. It's probably less likely to happen if you're releasing a PC only title on Steam unless you have that banner placement. Again, my opinion and I'm sure that it also depends on how you measure 'success' as developer. Personally, having the funds to independently create successive games is my take on success: keeping the dream alive! :)
     
  24. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    I just stumbled on this video - as a very high level - this describes a 'drama system' as an rpg.

    Again, this is very abstract - played out in a table top rpg - but the thing is that the game is built on a system of characters, the interesting thing is the relationships between the characters and how they change.

    CK2 is the first video game that builds this kind of framework of relationships between characters, and, over time, those relationships change. The presentation is "spreadsheet" and crude, but it works. The dramas that the game produces procedurally are absolutely best in class (perhaps only in class).

    Again, I am not a good enough game designer to figure out how to translate this to more immersive terms, but someone out there is good enough to do it. They will figure out how to make CK2 accessible to normal gamers, and they will figure out how to make the environment less abstract and more immersive.

    That game will be a tremendous success, and that designer will make a metric boatload of money.
     
  25. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    I want to apologize for the later posts, I had pull an all nighter, now I have slept a bit and reflect on them lol, I didn't think of much when written them but, now I'm rested and more conscious, I think they are kind of mean and don't make for great interpersonal communication lol I have to remember to not feed my inner nerd after midnight.

    Thanks for that video I will look at it.
     
  26. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    I didn't take offense, it's not my game. But I really think Paradox did stuff there that borders on revolutionary. It is an immensely unique game and shouldn't be disregarded just because the presentation is very "spreadsheet".
     
  27. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    I didn't disregard it because it's spreadsheet though lol, I was talking presentation because AAA, I guess it's a case of miscommunication. I think ck2 did something great, but in a way it's still very similar to what the sims, dwarf fortress, shadow of mordor do to player's imagination, it did it in a way that captured more the imagination of some player than other.

    For example the sims have much more impact in term of story on player who already like SOAP opera rather than fantasy of historical setting, that's why I had to cull emotion (while noting it, it's a symptom), because part of it also depend on the interest of the person engaging in the particular setting and, most importantly, the tweaking of the experience.

    For example you could completely turn around the sims, by just changing the sensibility of the system, as the game tend to have some sort of rubber band in some version, that minimize the system descending into chaos, and enforce safer experience, which might be boring to a thrill seeker player (big drama is prevented).

    These type of system are attempted all the time, there is an history of using them and where they fail, that's why I quickly note that the problem isn't AI (tech) per see but presentation, I was saying that ck2 have a certain type of presentation that works, but isn't quite the goal when matching the context of the thread.

    And I explained why, these system tend to fail because narrative communication to the player is overlooked. Which is something Ck2 manage by using a spreadsheet , and why I brought shadow of mordor as an example of different presentation and why it was ground breaking and effective, they do similar thing under the hood.

    I mean it doesn't matter how complex is your system if that can't be read. Halo, when released, had enemy that look the most intelligent, it wasn't because they had ground breaking AI, it was because AI broadcast their state to make them readable to the player with flavor. And that's the key really of all these things, storytelling is adding and presenting flavor to events.

    Sometimes flavor is just the many different way a character dies, they are all functionally the same, but having them let the player fill the black, "he is been murdered by is son!" But in the code "son" is indistinct to any other characters, it's only because we import our real world knowledge and feeling that it become striking! Ie it's a cheap trick to use label to orient interpretation!

    Interpretation create the drama, telling the same story of an old man being killed by a stranger or his son (or revealing that the stranger was his son, see Oedipus) change the interpretation and our reaction to it. Ck2 works because all relation are hi drama relationship, it has family feuds.

    I mean understanding how why it works imho is doing the game justice.

    Also I apologized to avoid going rough in the future, to remind me to be kept me in check before I offend someone, I tend to be opinionated and oblivious to on these subjects lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  28. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    This to some extent misses the point.

    What makes CK2 great isn't the "ai is super neural network" etc. What makes CK2 great is they built game mechanics around relationships between characters.

    They build the entire game around different roles for the characters to play, then make different characters have actions that can help them achieve those roles and positions. They have many, many mechanics that alter or adjust the relationships.

    The AI is certainly very simple, but it does not need to be complex AI, it needs to have rich environment to operate in, and meaningful ways to change the relationships between characters. Then they populate the game with thousands of AI characters, all with family associations, etc, and allow simulation to act.

    It is 100% soap opera, but it is a procedural soap opera in a much wider sandbox than Sims. Setting and theme count for a lot, but truly what they did is build out mechanics for the AI to operate. Different roles, positions, ambitions, factions, subfactions, etc, so that the ai could operate "politics" and have meaningful goals that change game play.

    The actual logic for AI is not special or complex, instead of super smart ai, they provided rich environment for AI to use in order to achieve story. It is very different.

    From programming perspective, the challenge with so many actors (even very simple) is not to make the actors smart, it is to assure that the simulation does not result in degenerate state. Because the world is so dynamic, it can functionally collapse, so many systems need to be in place to keep the game from becoming degenerate. Games like the sims or mordor cannot have these kinds of 'degenerate state' because the game environment is not as complex or dynamic (dwarf fortress I do not know enough about).

    Mordor did some things like this, but super simple and very crude in terms of game play. Instead, much more polished in presentation. Functionally, Mordor's system is very very simple compared to CK2.
     
  29. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    I felt I said the same thing with a different focus lol, well at least we are agreeing :D

    - I focused on the presentation layer (ie communicating state) but the basis is the same, it's about exploiting relationship as a "drama engine".

    - I brought up the sims for the same reason you mentioned, they tweaked the system into a different equilibrium for different effects.

    - When I say soap opera I was talking about the public perception and audience targeting, ie attracted by the aesthetics.

    - Not going through degenerate state I don't consider that a code issue but a design issue, but I'm biased, I'm a designer, so my design hammer see everything as design nail lol.

    I would say the discussion is a net positive, because I think we are narrowing the key points to make that goal possible lol. We have move from elusive tech advancement to identifying relationship engine as the key factor, and you have just concluded the tech might not be out of reach.

    To further it, I would wonder what would a degenerate state looks like, is it a really big deal, how does CK2 handle it, and isn't the inherent structure preventing it by design?
     
  30. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    But AAA presentation of procedural relationship is beyond current tech. More complex (dramatic) relationships must either be abstract or simplified. We have no games as example which demonstrate remotely complex procedural relationships between characters. Just canned cinematic or highly abstract.

    Degenerate state is when the condition of the world has become so far fetched that it doesn't make sense. Narrative is lost, because the resulting world is so unbelievable. If your narrative is historical, then the closer the results are to history the more believable the system is.

    Sims and Mordor, not enough changes long term. Sims you can create unbelievable situations as player (crazy buildings, rooms without doors, etc), but the characters have very limited agency, and cannot affect very much change. In CK2, countries rise and fall as character relationships change, game state is changed permanently by AI action, AI then acts on changed state and the process continues (emergence).

    Degenerate state is a systems problem and narrative problem. Easiest way to handle it is to limit AI agency, so they can do very little and have no real impact on game state. Skyrim has some AI action, but they cannot have real impact on results and the results are not recursively acted upon. So AI cannot ever become degenerate.

    Degenerate states are the main problem for complex AI in games and they are the reason that almost all games feature extremely limited AI. AAA has the biggest constraints because the high level of polish means that any problems are very noticeable, the results usually being that AAA AI is usually some of the most limited (very detailed animation sequences, almost no long term consequence to their action).
     
  31. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    What do you call complex relationship (especially if are invoking ck2 which is NOT complex). Are you talking about the ability to emote the spreadsheet in convincing way?

    But you don't explain how it does happen, it doesn't happen in ck2 because there is nothing complex, also because this game rely on a very simple structure, it's about managing title and land through lineage, relationship is basically the equivalent of civ terrain because it tells you what you can do with what efficiency, drama are just random part of the random events, it's more effecting that civ because we read much more in a son murdering his parents than a tournado ruining crops.

    Randomness works in ck2 because it's weighted through what I called the faction system, which has inner strife and outside competition. All the action of the game are tied to the main structure that constrain and gave meaning to action, the whole game is around gaining status, the more status you have the more problem you attract, but the more agency you have, maintaining that status is what makes the game chaotic (ie emergent and ever changing according to you).

    It's all due to the infinite permutation of the relationship possibility introduced by the randomness (ie random character traits children are born from as example). It doesn't broke because the continuity is assured by the structure, the dance around the finite resources is what makes the games forever revolving, and character get replaced every so often with new twist. Long term effects are just the system going from one state or another without any other sense of history than the player's memory (you remember you started at the bottom of the hierarchy and climb it), the system itself is blind to it.

    It's really no different than shadow of mordor (going through ranks by playing through relationship) except shadow of mordor are tweak toward fixed progression, the game don't allow you to regress therefore there is no chaos, it finally settle when you get to the top. The sims is different in that it center the entire game on the family and intentionally deemphasized interaction between npc, and it's arguable that there is no sense of lasting continuity, your house get bigger, your relation evolve, you rise into ranks, character grew old and dies, kids grew up and marry.

    It's just different interest altogether, a more mundane focus, and the tweaking of the system actively goes against situation like ck2, the goal and therefore structure is just not as "dramatic" (in the epic sense) on a design level, there is nothing to conspire make you lose your job through exceptional circumstance, no burned down to the ground house that stay and have the family wander as homeless, because the fantasy is just not there, but that does not mean the basics aren't the same, we should be able to tell.

    And there is a problem of aesthetics, the sims is very competent at showing the emotion, but choose to do it in a very dramatic but goofy acting, does not mean we can't tone it down, shadow of mordor have the same system adapted to his brooding hero setting, and the new one even go further by having:
    - allies bursting doors
    - when you are in a difficult position
    - and wax poetic about your relation with the enemy
    - that happened to be an ancient ally you betrayed you
    - and were bragging about his new found power given by the "dark lord"
    which is quite the continuity if you ask. And that game is as AAA as you can get, so the precedent is sets.
     
  32. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Posts:
    3,144

    Um...what complex systems were there in Witcher 2? It was just a much more difficult game which required great care in how you dealt with an enemy--bosses at least (that first Letho fight felt like bashing my head against a brick wall repeatedly). Otherwise however it was exceedingly simple. I feel 3 actually had a far better combat system, with stuff like the dodge (rather than that ridiculous rolling you were limited to in 2).

    I would strongly, strongly disagree with any metric for "RPG" that involves crafting and potions - same for the difficulty of the game. In fact I have quite strong opinions on what an RPG is (my purest form of an RPG doesn't necessarily involve combat or other mechanical activities like crafting), so I keep away from that topic. Suffice to say, I don't feel The Witcher was ever a "true" RPG (which is irrelevant to the discussion, and to the quality of /how well I liked the game).

    But I would not say Witcher 3 was niche at all, that was my main point. It sold many millions.

    And I'd even be trepidacious of saying that about Witcher 2 - it apparently sold 1.7 million.
     
  33. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    I think you do not understand the game well enough if you say this. This is the problem with the conversation. It is hundreds of times more complex than civ because the interactions are bottom up not top down. Characters combine and drive factions from atomic level instead of top down level.

    Maybe look into cellular automata and similar systems to better understand. All paradox titles have these kinds of functions to some degree, because many paradox games model 100+ countries, complexity comes from the amount of stuff, even if each is very simple, together they become rich with details. CK2 takes this to the next level in how much scale.

    It is not right to compare a game with 5 agents moving around to a game with 5,000 -- the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. In Fallout, I can pile objects together and stand on them, but this is different from minecraft where everything in the world can be manipulated and changed. Each voxel is game play potential, so the possibilities are rich and varied.

    In paradox titles with world markets, there is a lot of complexity in just making sure these markets function - balancing input and output - making sure the amount of resources are stable without cheating the simulation too much. You have hundreds of countries trading goods, it is incredibly simple system, but because there are so many actors, it becomes very complex, and there can be game breaking problems.

    Yes, this is what I am saying. I don't think there are examples where these emotes, procedurally driven have been convincing in anything other than "you killed me! raaah" (mordor) or "I love you lets have a baby" (sims). More subtle relationships are harder to communicate.

    Although the individual AI mechanics are simple, the relationships are complex and subtle. Many overlapping elements, different push and pull. These are not complex AI, but they are many gears, levers, and switches.

    Is it possible to do this convincingly? Maybe. But I have not seen an example other than the sims and mordor, I do not think either comes anywhere close.

    All AI and games are spreadsheets, we manipulate numbers to trick players into feeling like there is more happening. This is what games are.
     
    EternalAmbiguity likes this.
  34. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    I'm so glad you use cellular automata because you have demonstrated my point perfectly, there is many type of cellular automata, some have complex behavior, like the game of life, due to entering chaotic state, some converge to stability like cave system automata. The only difference is tweak in the parameter, which is my argument the entire time. That is the complexity of result is not tied to the complexity of the system, it's like boid, they have complex behavior base on a simple system, ck2 really funnel it's apparent complexity through structure. Why you keep assuming I know nothing about the game because I have different interpretation also isn't helping lol especially when I'm parroting the dev. But really fundamentally the basics are the same for both game. Bottom up or top down don't matter to me here. Especially when I have explain similar things elsewhere in the post :p At least you have admit it's a faction system now, the balance is tipping in my favor :cool: I think wht throw you off is that, while I think the system is amazing, I'm not fooled by the result and have no emotional investment in understanding the gap between the model and the experience. To me that's another ELIZA effect happening.

    But I think now, the discussion can't go further on this aspects, I think we have arrive at the "belief wall". :D

    The truth is that is that I'm currently working on a simplified digital puppetery system to make small animation, that might at term allow to create such a system, we will see. So I'm talking from what I have learn during that research.

    There is two game I think make the demonstration that is possible, Facade and Versu, both highly interactive drama system, versu is in text but the author is a very sharp interactive designer, and while it's text, you have to realize what matter is less the animation but the syntax of telling information, animation would just be just another channel to convey that information. I mean she broke down things so thoroughly you can use that to a system that tell more nuance emotion on the basis it's not tech but understanding how storytelling works. Because like I said it's a matter of presentation. Human expression aren't that much complex, especially if you have a system like ck2, you have all the data necessary to parse into a presentation layer, the complexity is basically the sum. Even with a full body we can fill in the blank (look at my keanu reeves meme above). Here is a concrete experiment made by someone:

     
  35. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    I think the real problem is you think that I am being "fooled", so you assume I feel this is magic. I broke down CK2 in great depth as I was looking to clone many aspects of it. I have a very deep understanding of the game mechanically, but more importantly I have some understanding of how it works, why it succeeds. You seem to be very caught up on Spreadsheet presentation, or perhaps with your friends talking too much garbage.

    It is not a faction system, it is many, many layers of faction system within faction system. I keep trying to emphasize that this is where the richness comes from, and how the narrative works. Because there is overlap in many different ways all at once, there are interpersonal conflicts and betrayal, the true meat of drama.

    This is not trivial task, to build an environment like this and to make real consequence result. The subject and theme play a large role, because the scope is so huge, the relationships are so sharp (family) and the number of characters so vast.

    I considered trying to build a mafia game based on CK2, since this dealt with family, and had very specific kinds of roles, conflict, betrayal and violence - but I think ultimately the scope is too small to make it work, not enough characters. The world must always be limited, Fallout not Minecraft.

    You cannot make this system work with 20 characters. You must have hundreds or thousands. If you think it is possible with 20 then you do not understand why it works.

    Perhaps the best alternative theme is workplace in large corporation. Here you can have cabals within cabals and you can have hundreds of employees, but you lack the drama, no family, no bloodshed. You also cannot present large scale change, what are you going to do, conquer the marketing department?

    If you think you can make puppet system that populates believable environment of large scope with dynamic interaction that is immersive, then please, make this game. In reality, the best we can do is something like Mordor or Sims (these are both very impressive games, but not the same).
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  36. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    There is a smiley because that is a joke, basically I feel the same, you always talk like I didn't broke down the game mechanically personally too, my friend introduce me to the game but I had to do the work myself, hence why I was quickly able to reference a talk from the dev. It's like you hear saying something different than I'm actually saying.

    I think the problem is that we have different way to break down the same problem, and different expectation.

    For example:
    - you talk about the puppet as if they were the target of the simulation, maybe I'm wrong but you mention them as if we should have gta style character all interacting at the same time. When in fact I'm saying the "puppet" is the interface to represent the underlying simulation when needed.

    - I'm not saying the mechanics are just spreadsheet (that isn't a bad thing either), I'm saying communicating with spreadsheet is the thing to expend. Ie what if that spreadsheet was conveyed through "pcg puppet scenes" that would feel more organic. In shadow of mordor, character aren't just always running around, they are instanced when necessary to express a state of the underlying simulation, hence why I reference it more than the sims. I think a simulation ala sims would be foolish and the same illusion can be maintained through a different process. The irony is that back in the scene, that's how the sims deal with distant npc when simulating a whole town, except they minimized the system going chaotic by not having interlocked STAKES.

    Narrative is about careful presentation, the spreadsheet is a way to focus you on different level of the simulation, you must see each windows as different zoom factor of the data, like we use different cut and shot in cinema in the same scene to draw attention to specific details, the idea is to find equivalent for different format. For example I mentioned bard to pass information in a TPS or going to intel (maybe tavern, finding the right person, having events, etc ...) like in mordor. By the why an old idea already mentionned in a paper called ashmore thesis (if I don't make mistake) and even then we can go back to the original sid meier pirate for proto version of it.

    - I'm personally interested in a system whose underlying design methodology would scale through tweak from small linear progression to big complex open world with complex kingdom politic. And how to make it interact with the player's experience. One of the key concept I have only implicitly alluded is stakes, when describing how lineage in ck2 were fighting for the same pools of resources and how the sims keep that from happening, that's the concept I was alluding to.

    If your mafia game's npc aren't competing for the same resources (just an example not a jab lol) then the system will have limited drama, if character aren't replaced, then the system will have stability. The video you shared mention something like that too, the session where all character where in the same room, facing the same threat, only produced agreement and not drama.

    There is an underlying structure to create organic stakes that goes beyond the brute forcing of the simulation. The sims don't have it by design, ck2 have it, even if you scale the sims to millions of npc it wouldn't work. That's basically your bottom up equivalent if you want, have a common mutually exclusive stake. In ck2 the same stake is repeated at multiple level of grouping along a power progression, each level give you expended people to deal with and extra fragility, ie more instability.

    - When I say it's a faction system like other different game, it's like saying pokemon, morrorwind, diablo and baldur's gate are statistic based rpg, the knowledge of one informed the knowledge of other, you get a greater understanding that makes it easy to compose your own unique solution when needed. In the end their system are structured differently but really just tweak from each other using the same basic concept.

    - I'm also deeply invested in how the whole system is composed of different system, such as the presentation layer, the action layer, the actual simulation process, the data model. Sometimes the problem isn't were we think it reside. Like I have said, many people have made successful implementation of the technological side only to reveal that the issue were elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  37. AntonyQS

    AntonyQS

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    24

    The accessibility trouble of W2 was the complexity of the dynamic combat (especially on a mouse and keyboard.) It may have been exceedingly simple to someone that had played a similar game but to an absolute newcomer to that type of game? Not so much. Hell, until I learned the combat system properly in W3 I was tempted to never play it again.

    That's why I still consider W2 a more niche product than W3. It was marketed to a fanbase that had already bought into that style of game. It then underwent some development changes and mechanic overhauls to appeal to a more sustainable market auidience. Same has happened for games like Far Cry, Fallout, ES and Battlefield in recent years with their games becoming more standardised and focused on player retention.

    For further comparison, I wouldn't consider the Forza series a niche product but would absolutely put iRacing or Project Cars in the niche category. All racing games, but the level of complexity in its systems and their requirement to dedicate time to a learning curve define them as more (or less) marketable products to a wider audience. The W2 and W3 figures you provided reflect that. W3 was a more accessible game in my opinion, and CDPR reaped the rewards for getting that balance right for the new generation of RPG fans created by games like Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect and the like.

    Again, all this is my opinion but it's interesting that people define RPGs as different things. Some people classify them with a list of mechanics or narrative choices. Also interesting you should mention the lack of combat, as that is one of the major pillars of the game we have in development.
     
    frosted likes this.
  38. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Posts:
    3,144
    Interestingly, I really hadn't played that type of game before. I never played the Dark Souls series. I played the first Witcher game, but its combat was nothing like its successors. Later, AFTER I played Witcher 2 I wound up playing a few character action games, but they really don't play like Witcher 2. I'm not saying I didn't have trouble with Witcher 2 (like I mentioned that first Letho fight was just unreal at the time, with no to little prior experience), but it didn't make the game very inaccessible in my mind.

    I would definitely agree that W2 is "more" niche than W3, but I still would not really call it niche. Heck, Nier Automata is basically a breakout title for Yoko Taro and Square Enix and it's sold just over a million on two platforms. I'd put that at about the edge of niche, honestly.

    I would be dubious of your assessment of Far Cry. Far Cry 2 was nothing like 1, and 3 was nothing like 2. It's not like they had a consistent formula that they deviated away from for 3 (and in fact the formula has been most consistent since 3).

    I think you have a good point about racing games (though as far as I understand it P Cars is about as simcade as Forza/Gran Turismo), and that's ultimately why I disagree about Witcher 2 (and 3 to a lesser extent--you were saying it was niche before and you've moved away from that here). They don't require any great mechanistic skill nor understanding of deep complexity outside of "use silver sword for magical creatures and steel sword for natural creatures" (and the game does that for you automatically). The potion system was never needed. Neither is any specific type of gear set-up outside of the typical RPG thing there. It's just attack, attack, attack, dodge/roll occasionally. It's not particularly different from most other games, it's just a bit more difficult.

    My opinions on RPGs stem from what I consider the ultimate goal of an RPG: expression of a (player) character. Better ways to express your character as an individual (not stabbing a sword into someone, which tells you nothing about the person stabbing) make a better RPG. IMO.
     
  39. AntonyQS

    AntonyQS

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    24
    Welllll, I don't mean to split hairs, but originally I said:

    What I meant was games within these genres/play types are traditionally and typically found to have more user involved systems and lore, but that these have both found commercial success (as in player base and revenue) in markets that used to be a lot more exclusive. They achieved this I believe with the acknowledgement that accessibility in all of the game's systems (not just mechanics but the story, characters and ability to complete relatively quickly) is the key to player engagement if you want to reach a wider audience. I could be wrong though.



    With that standpoint I agree, there wasn't much of a formula to begin with. However, interestingly the exclusivity of the first game came from the install base itself rather than a conscious public prescence. That is, those that a.) Had a PC and b.) Had a PC capable of running FarCry. It was always 'that' game people would buy to test their systems, much in the same way that Crysis was 'the game' to try and cook your GPU and Mobo in the late 2000s. I believe Crysis (though a success on PC) didn't gather a lot of user based traction until the 2nd was released on consoles alongside the PC version.
     
    EternalAmbiguity likes this.
  40. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Posts:
    3,144
    I would be dubious of calling the lite action-RPG niche at any time really, considering the popularity of games like Zelda and Kingdom Hearts over a decade ago. If you want to exclude Zero Dawn and look exclusively at Witcher 3 and it's more precise combat I might see your point - character action games have always been relatively niche, and then the SoulsBorne series came along relatively recently.

    Hmm, I wasn't aware of that. I only heard of that for Crysis.

    I never played the original so I can't speak to any special or niche mechanics/systems it may have had.
     
    frosted likes this.
  41. Hikiko66

    Hikiko66

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Posts:
    1,304
    Both inspiring and demoralizing at the same time for game devs

     
    Deleted User and frosted like this.
  42. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    the interactivity with the environment is ... insane.

    just friggin incredible.
     
  43. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    The odd thing is Metro 2033 / Last Light with the engine tech available to us today would be a far better target if you're chasing the AAA rainbow than any MMO / RPG etc. It's orders of magnitude less complex as a linear non-openworld FPS..

    For reasons unknown when an Indie gets lofty ideas we seem to want to compete with the most complex well known games out there.. Like I'm working on a project that's more akin to Fallout than Metro, although I know it would be far / smarter / prudent / less difficult to work on a game like Metro 2033.
     
  44. frosted

    frosted

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,044
    dude, the polish in those interactions is best of breed. You need manpower for that, regardless of what category they fall in (AAA, indie), that's a ton of man hours and tons and tons of work. If they maintain that level of interaction - crazy.
     
  45. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    I'm obviously talking about the first two games not Exodus, fair bit of difference between starting an IP from nothing as opposed to having a solid foundation you're essentially polishing / upgrading after it's already sold well and you can hire more "manpower"..

    I don't see anyone here with a basis for a game like Metro 2033 (which again is a more basic linear FPS), never mind Exodus.. It shows that we do over-reach when there are better options.

    I personally love the Metro games, not even a massive fan of linear FPS games.. Something about the Metro series that's just "right"..
     
  46. neoshaman

    neoshaman

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    6,493
    It's also note worthy that's based on an already existing corpus of works (book I believe) so they don't have to bicker about what's in and out and just translate the core idea.
     
    Deleted User likes this.
  47. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    Why don't you make it some more linear with good story and different levels , one linear with some little roaming freedom and some other lot more bigger giving opportunity for more exploration and finding stuff ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  48. Quatum1000

    Quatum1000

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Posts:
    889
    Kingdom Come: Deliverance : An example for three developers at work on a AAA quality game. :)

     
  49. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Posts:
    29,723
    Erm no, that's 80 employees, with serious funding dude.
     
    GarBenjamin, frosted and Murgilod like this.
  50. Quatum1000

    Quatum1000

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Posts:
    889
    new_team_photo2017.jpg True, now over 86.