This thread is about the fact that there's something people don't want to talk about. We know that game design includes all the things game design includes. Okay, great. But not as many people are willing to think of the game's artwork as an element of the game's design, at least not in my perception. It has an influence on the player's enjoyment and satisfaction with the game, it offers another layer of communication in the game loop... and yet, I still see games with graphics that are programmer art or so hard on the eyes you have to go to your happy place to test them out. And the design focused creators don't see this as an issue. On Kongregate otherwise decent ideas, I'll see them foiled by their awful graphical representation. Then the poor graphics fail to create a proper game environment, then the creator I believe doesn't know exactly what his presentation is supposed to be like and then I think that games don't reach their full potential. You can't just go around all willy nilly making video games without some concept of how the visuals are going to impact the player, that's what I'm saying. And if you do so, you do so to your own detriment, and shouldn't be surprised when your works are snubbed/glossed over. It shouldn't be about blaming the players, for being "graphics whores" or "visual"... it should be about wanting to make something that everybody can enjoy and I think that's lost in the shuffle too often. Also, think of it this way... you can make games for the love of games but it's always going to be a competition between your games and other games. So if you make the same game as someone else, but your game doesn't look as good... guess which one they're going to play. Sad, but true.