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How about a "Game Design" forum?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by JoeStrout, Oct 1, 2014.

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  1. superpig

    superpig

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  2. LaneFox

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    Do those threads belong in Unity Gossip, Support, or Scripting? Not really, so there is a gap.
     
  3. superpig

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    Sure, but we're discussing a Game Design forum, not an 'Everything that doesn't really fit in other forums' forum. There's multiple gaps to fill here; trying to do all of them at once won't work.
     
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  4. LaneFox

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    None of the other subforums exhibit that level of segregation so I don't see a reason why there should be a difference between 'technical game design' and 'game design' in this case. I mean, the Unity Support section is a completely ambiguous name, I don't think the objective is to create highly specific subforums, rather it seems to be more along the lines of creating a place to discuss general game design.
     
  5. Ostwind

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    Seems people think game design differently. Personally I would say all threads LaneFox linked would fit to new "Game" design section, technical or theory. There is no good section for these now, people just post them all over the place like support, gossip, scripting or mobile sections. For example for mobile there are several times posts that are discussion about good design/practices on mobile or desktop that apply to all of the platforms but now they have to posted only one of them as there is no general section for any kind of design.

    edit: Finding good info about just by browsing is very hard at the moment and using search is a lot of work since thread titles are sometimes a mess and they are posted to random places :(
     
  6. LaneFox

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    This sums up my thoughts much better.
     
  7. JoeStrout

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    Would it help to draft a sticky to go at the top of the forum, explaining its purpose? Perhaps something like:

    General : Game Design. Read before posting!

    This area is for discussion of the design of games — the rules and mechanics which facilitate interaction between players and the game for playful, educational, or simulation purposes.

    This includes topics such as:
    • effective control schemes
    • techniques for making a game "sticky" (i.e., keeping players coming back)
    • balancing and scaling difficulty
    • balancing depth vs. simplicity
    • tuning a game to appeal to a particular target audience (or for broad appeal)
    • designing for replayability
    While these topics are not specific to Unity, when a discussion gets into details, it's fine to consider the particular opportunities Unity brings to the issues at hand.

    However, this forum is not for technical "how to" questions — for those, use the more technical support forums. For example, "How can I make this game easier to control with a gamepad?" is quite appropriate here; but "How do I create my own Input configuration screen?" would be better off in the Scripting forum.
     
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  8. superpig

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    @JoeStrout: Yes, it would make sense to have a statement at the top of a new forum explaining what it's for. The problem is what the statement says - I pretty much agree with what you've written but I think @LaneFox and @Ostwind won't.
     
  9. LaneFox

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    I imaged it to be much more open ended, but either way there is benefit. However I'm not a fan of the constrained nature of the suggested sticky.

    I think @JoeStrout 's suggestion would scale fine, creating a place for general design topics to be posted and then seeing how the space evolved.. If it started out a little more open then I think it would be easier to see where it went, for instance a)if it merited having a more technical and separate space, b) if the technical threads fit in there without another subforum or c)the technical threads naturally seemed to make their way to other existing forums either by natural means or a clear need of moderation.
     
  10. Ostwind

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    Well there is a lot of stuff that won't fit to scripting because they have nothing or much to do with writing code. As example, links that LaneFox gave are pretty much all such things I think. Generally I would more like to see section for design issues that are related to use of Unity than general game design which already has a lot of places around net that cover any engine.
     
  11. superpig

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    FWIW I do agree that there's also a lack of focus/content regarding high-level technical stuff, including best practice information, how to architect a Unity game, etc. I just think that's a separate problem - bigger than the forums - and shouldn't be conflated with game design.
     
  12. superpig

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    I think this was raised earlier in the thread, but: does it actually have a lot of other places? Where are they?

    Also, assuming such places do exist, it seems people don't want to go offsite to use them - they like having all their discussions in one place, with one user account and one Alerts system and so on.
     
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  13. JoeStrout

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    Right. I haven't yet found any other good forums for game design discussion, and even if they exist, I'd rather do it here. And in addition, to the extent that there are game design issues specifically related to Unity, this would be a fine place for those too.

    And of course what I posted above is just an off-the-cuff draft; @Aurore would certainly tweak it as he sees fit. I don't think we should let ourselves get held up too much in trying to get it perfect. Far better to have a design forum, whether its charter is a little narrower or broader than some of us would like, than to have no forum for it at all.
     
  14. Ostwind

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    Ok I have to admit that now when I try to search these there are no easy places to find except maybe gamedev. I haven't had the need to search that kind of info anymore for long time but when I did back when I started with Unity it was easier to find general game design issues answered in various places (blogs, stack, other engines general theory sections) than it was to find info how to do something well with Unity. Only way seemed to be to fight with the old search or start a new thread and flip a coin when choosing the section to post it.

    I'm not against "engine neutral" design issues section at all but it seems to be more probable place to for the "Hi, I want to make a MMORPG" which seemed to scare @Aurore. Many of the other engines have these sections(?) so people don't have to wonder off-site. Personally I would like to see both type sections added and if they don't work out then just remove em. Not sure how much work existing moderators already have with locking and moving threads in all the existing places. Maybe do an internal poll for em or get few more mods?
     
  15. superpig

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    My suspicion re the 'I want to make a MMORPG' threads is that if they were going to happen in a Game Design forum then we'd see them already here. The people behind the worst of that sort of thread tend not to pay too much attention to which forum they're posting in.
     
  16. randomperson42

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    Right, there will probably be plenty of "show me how to make world of warcraft include a script plz" threads but those would have popped up anyways, just in a different forum.
     
  17. GarBenjamin

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    ROFL... thanks for the laugh... "include a script plz" LOL. It makes me wonder are there a ton of 6 to 9 year olds coming to Unity.
     
  18. carking1996

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    I'll apply to be a mod. I already do a lot and suggestions to hippo.
     
  19. Teila

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    Aurore, you said in a previous post that "This is primarily a development forum". Game design is a very important part of development and you can find dozens of books on the subject. Schools teach Game Design as a separate subject and even in some schools, an entirely separate program.

    I have had lots of discussions with my dear programmer friends who insist design is not important but as a designer, I have a different view. I can't do my job without programmers or artists but I do think people like me do make games better (I do not mean we make better games!). Of course many here disagree and I am not trying to open a can of worms.

    A design forum will help people like me fully develop my skills as well as introduce new game developers to some new ideas, maybe some new ways of thinking of "game development". Maybe a few of my programmer friends will get a better opinion of us designers. ;)

    Personally, I think game design is the most ignored process in indie game development. Not sure why since it certainly the most fun process! :p

    Again, I would be happy to help in whatever way I can. Not sure what that is, but seems only fair to offer help for something new and maybe a bit scary to the mods.
     
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  20. AndrewGrayGames

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    As a new developer, who frankly barely has a clue of what I'm about at any given time, this will help me write better games. As noted in previous post mortems, there's many things I could have done better. Some of it was revealed by the practice of failing as quickly as I can, other parts by testing prototypes against real people (e.g. people who aren't me.)

    But, the problem inherent in this 'fail faster' approach is that it's brute force. In the decades that people have been writing videogames, we've uncovered principles that lead to good games, we've analyzed good games for what makes them tick, we've looked for anti-patterns in games that generate anti-fun. All of this falls under the discipline of Game Design, which is the art and science of creating a series of interesting choices in pursuit of a clear and compelling goal.

    As a new developer, improving my knowledge and mastery of game design will help me make better games. Me making better games has all sorts of advantages, but the ones pertinent to Unity Tech involves A) people realizing that Unity makes good, non-mobile games, B) Unity being further established as a progressive, and successful, intellectual community, and distantly, C) Me buying pro and other licenses, which sort of helps you keep going.

    We can have these discussions either way; it doesn't matter if it's a General topic prefixed with [Design]; it doesn't matter if it's a subforum for Game Design; it doesn't matter if we spin off our own forum, these discussions will happen, because this discipline exists, and people know about it, and people who want/need to learn more, will. The benefits to Unity doing it comes down to the home field advantage, thus why so many people - myself included! - are so adamant that this would be a good thing.

    I'm looking into a new-generation forum system called Discourse, it looks rather promising...
     
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  21. Teila

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    I want to add this: The experiment to find design topics on the gossip thread is fine. However, honestly, I don't post many design topics here. Why? Because I never saw the interest until this thread opened. Even previous topics on a design forum were not very busy. And our request at the time was almost immediately shot down.

    So..why would anyone post topics about game design in a forum where they are not wanted? I suggest an alternative. Give us a forum and allow us a few months to see what happens. By that I mean see what people post and how interesting it is. See if it attracts attention and actually is beneficial to the community. Judge us by what we say, not by the off-topic posts. I see some rather messy posts in other forums as well so give our new forum a chance.

    In return, we will help mod by redirecting off-topic posts and report any that we think need to be reported.

    Again, if it doesn't work, it is easy to just close the forum. The gossip forum is an off-topic forum, not a place for game development topics. Game design is a game development topic, at least everywhere but here.

    If Unity doesn't want our forum here, then we can take it elsewhere. No problem. Just don't string us along. :p

    BTW, I can host if need be. Joe Stout has said he wants it on the Unity forum but I don't mind putting another quick tab on my browser and spending time elsewhere if need be. I prefer Untiy, because I think it is more beneficial to a community I have come to adore, but if Unity doesn't want to bother with us then that is fine. As Asvarduil said, the discussion will happen either way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  22. BeefSupreme

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    I'm in total agreement with Teila's post above, but I think it would be awesome if the discussion could remain here. What purpose do the forums serve, if not fostering a sense of community among like minded developers? I don't think you can make a game without doing design on some level, and of course people want to be able to discuss these things within the community that they are already a part of.

    I promise to post nearly 50% fewer nude selfies.
     
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  23. Teila

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    Hmm, guess we should thank you for that? Or maybe not. ;)

    I would prefer it here as well.
     
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  24. Gigiwoo

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    Might I suggest some topics? After years spent mentoring young developers, publishing chapters on game design, and teaching game-design to high-school teachers (yay NSF!), here are my favorite topics under 'Game Design'.
    • Flow - the theory, the 4 ingredients, and the practical application
    • Simplicity - applications toward interface, game design, mechanics, ...
    • Motivation - intrinsic (i.e. fun) vs extrinsic motivators (i.e. badges)
    • Story
    • Interest Curve
    • Paradox of Choice
    • Juice - as in UI's, not breakfast
    • Squares, Circles, Triangles
    • Convexity (aka Strings and Pearls, aka rivers & lakes)
    • Reward Cycle (aka Skinner Boxes)
    • Analytics
    • Monetization
    • Mystery Box
    • Minimally Viable Product (MVP)
    And, +1 for a Game Design forum! I'd like to offer an iteration of Joe's tag:

    Gigi
     
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  25. JoeStrout

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    Um, I'm trying to figure out how to agree without posting "me too!" like some brain-dead AOL-er (a Weird Al reference, not an actual slam on people or zombies who use AOL).

    Gigi's refinement of the proposed sticky suits me fine. As I said before, I'm not too particular; any place to bring up anything somebody might reasonably call game design is better than sticking it in Gossip, or off-topic in some other forum.

    And @Teila, if it comes down to hosting it at your site or somewhere else, I will sign up and try to participate. But I'd greatly prefer to do it here.

    Finally, I think you hit the nail right between the eyes: why not start a design forum here, give it a few months, and see how it goes? It's entirely possible that folks on the whole are mature and sensible, and we'll have a preponderance of quality discussion that both helps professional designers refine their designs, and exposes up-and-coming Unity developers to this important aspect of game creation that they never considered before.

    Or, it could be that it's quickly overrun by trolls and off-topic posts, causing the mods to lose sleep and hair. Personally, I doubt it will be that bad — it'll probably be somewhere between these two extremes, just like the other forums.

    But it certainly seems worth a try. Of course I recognize that trying it is not cost-free; somebody is going to have to put time into setting it up, watching it, agonizing over the now-uneven number of forums in each column on the main page, and so on. But still... pretty please?
     
  26. Teila

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    Absolutely!

    If the folks are mature and sensible, we won't feed the trolls and therefore, they won't stick around. :)

    Everything we do is risky. We wouldn't be here if we were all afraid of risk. I understand Unity shying away from a bit of extra work but I certainly hope they don't shut us down because they are afraid of stupid questions and trolls. Letting the jerks win never works. It chases away the sensible and mature people, leaving the jerks behind.
     
  27. GarBenjamin

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    I give you all credit for continuing to plead your case. I have low tolerance for it. Figured we asked. Got the answer. Time to either throw the idea in trash or set up the forum elsewhere. Lol. But just maybe your efforts will pay off with a forum here. Just let me know when something actually happens whether offsite or here.
     
  28. JoeStrout

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    Well, that's the thing — we haven't gotten the answer. @Aurore has said she's still on the fence.

    I do agree of course that if it's finally decided in the negative, then we should just set it up elsewhere and move on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
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  29. randomperson42

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    Somebody needs to shove her off to our side. Or push the fence over. Or something.
    keepofffence.jpg
     
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  30. randomperson42

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  31. carking1996

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    I dunno, I still think it's a decent idea that we should try.
     
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  32. GarBenjamin

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    Okay. It's probably an "old school" trait where I go by the actions I see. Not words. Just a habit I guess. I do realize that occasionally things can take a little time. There have been a few times in my life where something along these lines was going on and by the time it was officially decided yay or nay I already had it done. Lol. But I am in no real hurry. It is a good idea to just be patient. You are right.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  33. Teila

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    Well, we will see. Based on Unity's track record, we may not hear anything definitive for a few years. :p
     
  34. GarBenjamin

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    I haven't been around here long enough to know if they are usually fast or slow. I have read posts about "taking forever" but I figured that was just because many people are always complaining about something or other.

    They might be slow moving these days. Last I read, they had over 300 employees. Normally, a person would think THREE HUNDRED people?! They should knock out stuff like lightning but of course, in reality, the more people involved the slower things are because more time is spent hashing out everything. Plus the more people there are the more layers are added. But I am going off-topic so will cease and desist.
     
  35. Teila

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    I was kidding, hence the :p.
     
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  36. Aurore

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    Alright, you pushed me over, let's try this. Who wan't to moderate that forum?
     
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  37. NomadKing

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    Was it a large box of cookies arriving in the mail this morning that finally convinced you? :p

    I don't mind lending a hand keeping the place tidy, I'm usually lurking about the forums several times a day anyway!
     
  38. carking1996

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    Me. I'd love to help out. I try to help clean daily anyways. :) Make NomadKing and I mods and this forum will be clean.
     
  39. Aurore

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    No, that didn't happen, but it SHOULD!
     
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  40. LaneFox

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    Will we get fan mail and cookies?
     
  41. superpig

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    Only if by 'fan mail' you mean 'unsolicited mail-order catalogs from fan and ventilation supply companies' and by cookies you mean 'stale discs of hate.'
     
  42. GarBenjamin

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    Cool. Thanks for listening and deciding to give it a shot. :)
     
  43. LaneFox

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    This exceeds my expectations by several orders of magnitude.
     
  44. AndrewGrayGames

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    If you really need a volunteer moderator for the GD forum, I could do that. I check the forums on a daily basis. I'd be more than happy to do my part in our noble experiment.
     
  45. Teila

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    While there are others here with more experience on the forum, if you REALLY need someone, I am willing to help as well.

    Although, there are some who chimed in who would be excellent at this job. :)

    Thank you, Aurore!
     
  46. GarBenjamin

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    Same here. I simply did not volunteer because there were already 2 to 3 people eager to take on the role. I get the impression carking1996 will have no hesitation using the axe.
     
  47. Teila

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    :)

    My hope is we can redirect people in a constructive way so the mods won't have to axe people. We must remember that not everyone knows the meaning of "game design" so it will be a learning process. I hope we don't handle this the way some forum posters do, with insults and condescension. Remember, we were all there at one time in our life too, regardless of whether we posted on a forum. Fortunately for me, in my young days, forums were almost non-existent!
     
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  48. Archania

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    So another 3 months till we get an icon for the area so it can be made? ;)
     
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  49. GarBenjamin

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    Agreed. That kind of behavior has no place here (or elsewhere). But many people (especially these days) are very soft and take things very personally. Then they react by insulting and such. I am sure we will be fine. Be nice to have some good conversation and sharing going on. If people act like buttheads then I am all for giving them one chance to straighten up but after that let the axe fly.
     
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  50. GarBenjamin

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    I wonder about the time frame too. I would imagine the new forum would be up within 24 hours. But who knows what the internal policies are. To us we see it as click a button Add Forum, type in a title, post a sticky. Publish. Because for us as individuals it is just that simple. But she may have meetings and other things on her plate right now. And there may be things that have to be done for some internal bean counter department and so forth.
     
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