High School Game Programming Girls

Calmcarrots, thanks for clarifying. You did not offend me. And thanks for posting this thread.

However, I would love to see games whose primary focus is to appeal to more women. I don't mean silly games, I mean serious games. Many of us, not all of course, like things in games that are often left out because while they do appeal to men, they don't appeal to men as much as they do to women. So they won't hurt sales, just won't help that much.

This doesn't mean I don't like games that appeal to men, I do. Just nice to see a little diversity out there.

 

I have seen plenty of games get free advertising, including ones that I promote on Facebook and elsewhere. I am sure you guys all know how to get the word out with little or no money.

This was a contest for kids, just like a math contest, or a high school football game (do they all allow girls?). That is all. IGN reports on a lots of games, most of them made by men...just because more men make games.

Just to let you know, I have never gotten a break because I am a woman. In fact, I am guessing that our game will be hurt by the fact that I am the Project Manager even if it has combat and stuff. If you work hard, I am sure you will have the same breaks. Again, there are lots of contests out there, go enter one! I am being serious here. Go take the risk and do it!

 

You guys want to see sexism?
Planetside 2 could be called a sexist game, why?
Because not a single avatar is female! Oh, and you know, the game was made by a team of mostly men!
If you guys think these girls are sexist, or the idea they represent is sexist, you should step back, and take a good long look at the game industry and the way it treats women.
The only reason the game industry does this is because of the people they are trying to sell to, men.

Men like sexy women, lets make the women in our game sexy!
Men like violence, so lets put a lot of combat in there too.
Men like to be powerful, so lets make the male characters strong and awesome looking.
Its all about MEN!

Look at what a male dominated field produces: Over sexualized female characters, power image of male characters,
mainly male characters in FPSs, FPSs... shall I go on?
One word for all this: Sexism.
And not female sexism, but MALE sexism.
So, until there is a equal amount of female sexism in the game industry you men have no right to complain now do you?
Women want to be equal, so they should be able to make as many sexist games as they want until their sexist games are EQUAL to our sexist games.

Heh, you don't think the whole game industry uses men????
That is so funny, so so funny.
How many games have sexy women in their covers, trailers, or ads?
So what, these girls are using the fact that their girls to sell their game.
Whats funny is that you guys complain about this, when the game industry uses women to sell games to men!! HA! Derp
These girls are doing nothing different, the ONLY difference is that they are selling to other girls.

 

This is why I don't like most equality groups, because of this single idea. Not that I don't want equality for all, but because these groups fight sexism with counter-sexism, or racism with counter-racism. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with the opposite. Water.

 

I think he was being sarcastic. :/

Funny that you zero'd in on that particular comment. lol

 

I'm surprised he actually got that out considering all I read out of that post was

 

I fail to see what a gaming tournament having what I agree was a stupid gender restriction has to do with getting game advertisement for free...

Let me retort with an example of my own:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/27/google-women-techmakers-code-school-program/

Hmm, I paid $30 a month for Codeschool, how come I cant get it for free? oh thats right, I'm a guy...

 

The tournament had nothing to do with you. It was sent to me and I thought I would share since it was relevant to the discussion.

As for Google, take it up with them. Companies choose do things like this and they usually have an agenda that benefits them. So ask them? The free market allows them to spend their money where they choose. I would like to see them giving grants to everyone that wants to better their education, regardless of gender. Quite possibly they want to hire more women to do tech jobs because women get paid less. That is not a sting, just the truth, sadly. I imagine it could be hard to compete with someone who will accept a smaller paycheck.

When I left a job due to a move my boss hired one of my college friends as a replacement. He told me he was paying the guy more than me because "He had a family to support". Neither of us had children, he had a wife who worked, I had a husband who worked. Go figure.

As a man, I would fight for equal pay. It would go a lot to help even the playing field for both genders.

 

(I would also like equal pay, equal everything...)

 

All you have been talking about is sexy women. You also have one post and a really long rant against men. From that I conclude that:
1. You are an extreme feminist rights women
2. You want to be sexy
3. You hate men because you probably got a divorce/breakup and decided to blame the whole male consensus
4. You created this account just to rant about men

If I were you, I believe you should cool it. We are having a civilized discussion and all you want to do is yell at people just because most games have men in them. Its a MALE dominated industry. The greater population of gamers would like to see men blowing stuff up. Its like that in all movies because men are born with a stronger physical shape and women are born with a superior brain. It's nature and that is why males are the ones blowing stuff up, having lots of muscle, etc. Your points are invalid and you just want a reason to bag on men.

Lastly, this thread was NEVER about being sexist towards women. Everyone here respects women and we are just discussing this topic and women and game development. Please apologize.

 

Also, I think a mod should close this thread. It's getting a bit out of control.

PS It would be nice if the OP could have the ability to close their own threads.

 

You know what makes me sad? That society seems to believe that women need to use their gender to sell a game when the game itself should be capable of standing on its own. How is this any different than advertising a product with bikini-clad women?

If you need to shift attention that badly from your game, it probably isn't a very good game.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are female characters in Planetside 2. I get killed by them quite frequently.

 

This is not about selling a game. Again, the focus here has been warped to the advantages these children have in making money off their game. This is an educational process, not a marketing process.

Tell me, do you honestly believe the girls are going to make very much money on this game? I doubt it.

I said nothing about bikini's. You are confusing me with the other poster. And I believe the other poster actually made the point that using their gender was just like selling a game with scantily clad women.

So yeah...not sure I get your point other than the girls will make more money off a rather niche game that is rather simple and not all that exciting because they are girls. Got it.

Oh, and the obligatory dig at me about bikini clad women which is not the subject of this discussion really.

 

Erm, I am a guy... lol
But I do want to be sexy!

 

LOL

Perfect ending to the thread.

Thanks for the discussion! I actually enjoyed it.

 

Touché. Both sides have proposed our views and we have begun to repeat ourselves. Thread close?

Have a good day, hopefully nobody upset you with our views.

 

I did feel a bit alone but a few people supported me so not so bad. Thank you.

 

I'm not upset about anyones opinions, perhaps a bit frustrated, but I'll survive...

In fact I will hold out an olive branch and say that hopefully one day Teila we can work on a game together

 

But....I would have to veto bikini armor!

 

How so? What wrong is it doing? Who does it hurt, offend, belittle, or otherwise harm or diminish in any way either directly or indirectly?

What if I talk about my gender, or announce the gender of my team? Is that sexist? You have no idea who is on my current team or what gender(s) they may be, so you're going to have to think about that in the general case. What if my team has a mix? All girls? All guys? What if it includes people who don't identify themselves the same way most of us do?

I can't think of a single reason why announcing that it's an all-female team is a bad thing. I don't personally see it as a positive, either, but I can't understand why anyone would get upset about it. It honestly strikes me as being an opportunity to get on board the sexism bandwagon and beat about the bush in some form of misguided witch hunt. "Quick, someone mentioned gender on the Internet - is there any way we can interpret this as sexism?"

Game development is often an inherently expressive pursuit. If people aren't allowed to talk about themselves in relation to the game they're making I think we as people have a lot left to learn about being the open and accepting individuals we all apparently think we are. The thing that bothers me the most here, though, is that this isn't just random people jumping up and down, it's other game developers. Just like Telia said, regardless of what gender they are and whether or not they choose to identify themselves as such, we should be supporting them, not looking for reasons to shout them down.

 

Actually, I want to go further with my last paragraph. It's not even just "other game developers". Some of those developers are going so far as to claim that they're acting in the name of gender equality... by suggesting that people aren't even allowed to talk about their gender!

That's not acting in favour of equality. It's trying to brush the issue under a rug, which is no way to improve matters.

This.

(Also, I didn't read any project details or the whole thread, though I did skim some mentions of potential "special treatment" and questions about why they need funding and such. Just wanted to point out that they're all perfectly valid questions, but also that they're not necessarily anything to do with gender.)

 

LOL I could live with those terms.

 

They are using their gender to sell a product. No it's not sexist to announce what your team consists of gender wise. But to plaster it all over the place and make it your headline and selling point is indeed in my opinion. Like I've said before, I'm fine they announced it was all girls, I don't really care, however they've plastered is EVERYWHERE. I want to support the developers of the game(which the girls will be handing over to the Girls Make Games foundation) so that they can make a game, because I like the game. Not because the developers are girls, or a hippo, or an Angry Penguin.

Feel free to talk about yourself, I'd love to know you. However, I can't give care less about what gender you are.

Please point out where we've been shooting down the girls? We've been discussing the problems of the organization behind them. This "campaign" might as well be a direct donation to the Girls Make Games club.

 

Well, in my opinion the fact that they're not allowed to use their own identity to sell their own game can be construed as "shooting them down". Especially so since it is indeed a little bit unique (while I'm sure they exist I'm not personally aware of any other groups of teenage girls making games) and therefore seems to be to be a perfectly viable point of differentiation.

Edit: This is actually exactly why I mentioned "It's Toasted!" in my first post here. Yes, this point of differentiation has nothing to do with the game and may in fact not even be unique. Neither of those things matter, though, for the same reason that it didn't matter to Lucky Strike that everyone else also toasted their tobacco. It's not necessarily the product that needs to stand out, it's the message.

 

Since when did gender help define your identity? Your identity is made up of your choices and decisions, not your physical attributes.

 

We're not talking about people caring about gender.

We're talking about people caring about expression of gender.

Gender isn't just about "physical attributes". Your physical gender may indeed have nothing to do with your identity. Your expressed gender, however, is entirely different, and is indeed a prime example of "choices and decisions".

 

Would the contest have gotten as much attention if it were not focused solely around girls making games? If the answer is no, then it very much is using their gender to draw attention. That is marketing.

On a side note, I have actually backed their kickstarter because I like the idea of kids getting involved in game development.

Whether or not the girls get the money does not mean that their gender is not being used to market this contest.

 

I actually do think gender defines our identity, along with a number of other attributes including our ethnicity. Our lives are affected by our gender. It would be nice to live in a world where man, woman, and expressed gender were all treated the same. Our behavior is sculpted by our society so if we live in a culture where women or men are treated differently from each other, and those cultures do still exist, then how we see ourselves, our identity, will reflect that experience.

I am happy to be a woman and would not want to be otherwise. I love the men and boys in my life and do not see them as less than me. I identify as a woman and am proud to be a woman. I would hope that these young girls feel the same way.

 

I disagree. The attention, as witnessed here is not because of gender, but because others feel that it was unfair because they are not a young teen girl who won a contest and has a measly $6000 Kickstarter fund. Most people will never know they exist. In fact, my blog and Facebook postings have given them more attention...because of this thread, which was started by someone who supported the girls and was happy they were given this opportunity.

If a group of teen boys wins a contest and I post it here will you guys go on and on about it? If so, I will blog it as well. But betcha you guys will never even notice these boys, just like I probably never would have noticed the girls.

You can get attention too! As I tell my children, there is always enough to go around.

 

You two might be talking about different aspects of the attention. I think one of you is referring to attention from backers, where the other may be referring to the number of people talking about the sexism issue surrounding it.

 

It was not intended as a personal dig. As you said, our lives are affected by our gender. Part of that is understanding that women are used as a way to advertise a product. Think about it. If the method did not work, would they keep using it?

Good question. I cannot recall any past contests as I don't pay a lot of attention to them, but I do know I saw this thread mention a contest involving girls and that actually made me click on it.

Additionally I backed the Kickstarter partially because I like to encourage kids to get involved in computer technology, but also partially because I like to see women get involved with computers.

I live in a rural area of Virginia and I've encountered more than a few people, some of them even women, who seem to believe that computer technology is a field solely for men. I try to discourage this viewpoint if possible.

 

I didn't take it as a personal dig. As far as I was concerned, it was not part of the conversation. I could have an entire conversation on that subject, but honestly, I wouldn't dare do it here.

Thanks for supporting the girls. The fact that so many girls think science and math are not appropriate for them is the very reason stuff like this is a good thing. It brings awareness and even with all the discussion here, that is exactly what happened.

 

Except that no one's stopping women from getting into game development...

 

As Ryiah posted above, the women themselves often do not think that game development and other tech fields are appropriate for women. So this is more about teaching women that they can participate in professions that are science and math based. This isn't about anyone stopping them, but more about building awareness for the girls. Would it not be wonderful to have more women making games and programming software and studying science?

 

I'm sure it would be wonderful, but it seems to me that there are less female game devs mostly because there is less interest among women.

 

You may be right but I guess that if given the same exposure to game development as they are to other fields, at least some of them will become interested. They are not so different from boys you know. My girls play games, do 3d art, and write stories.

The contest builds interest among the girls which is exactly what it was meant to do. Introduce the girls to something new and show them what they can do. Honestly, most of them will probably not go into game development but maybe one of them will.

 

OK. Like I'm wondering how it's gone unmentioned, and I have no dog in this fight, I'm thinking it's cool too see a team of girls making a game. Not a sexist either. But I gotta point out...

A team of all women... Are making a game... Called "the hole story"...


Whatttt? Are they seriously trying to make the name sound... Strange?! Lol... No hate intended but they should have named it something else haha. I see that and think... It's like a kinky nod to them being all girls...

Lmao probably completely off, and really they probably never considered that, but that's just my first impression ya know.

 

My daughter has a horse...

and a doctorate, and races cars...

and likes blood-bath action films...

she would have hated a game containing princesses and unicorns. Dolls, princesses, and unicorns would have been much cheaper though :|

 

I highly recommend following some of the Hacker School rules when it comes to a social programming setting.

The most notable, is 'no subtle -isms.' Your fellow programmer is a person just like you. However, many of us have been raised with clear definitions on what 'guys' or 'girls' "should" do in a given situation. Be a mature individual and excersize judgement before you say something. If an accidental, subtle -ism still slips out, apologize, and don't do it again. Simple.

That way, we nerds of the world can have a creative space that dosen't make women - or, anyone else - feel bad about being who they are. Just throwing that idea out there.

 

The link you posted show that they had two groups, and its actually males that are banned from entering the woman only tournaments.

It seem that they wanted to follow a sports leagues / Olympic structure by providing a league for each gender to compete in. But this makes little sense for video games tournaments.

But the kind of insulting move (to woman) is that they kept the Woman only tournament after making the man group mixed.

 

This implies that girls have no control over what the watch and do, that they are stereotyped and have no say in their lives and yet they can watch youtube and download the free version of Unity just like anyone else. It would be interesting Teila to know how you think girls are exposed away from Game Development.

 

Honestly, I am getting sick of this thread. I feel attacked by a lot of people who think I speak for all womenkind! lol

Anyways, do a bit of research on "exposure". I think you all are smart enough to figure all this out yours. In fact, I KNOW you are!

Exposed away? Don't have a clue what that means.

Talked to a young girl today who is working with me on some game assets and she said until I invited her to help out, she never knew that making games was something she could do. I exposed her...so now she knows. If you want to make it more complicated than that, then do so, by all means. Not my problem to be honest.

I think I and others have done a pretty good job telling you all what we think. If you don't agree, fine. I am sure there are plenty of other people who expose their daughters to a variety of professions, even those that "girls" are not interested in. Interest grows from exposure to new things.

Anyway, turning off watch for this thread now. As others have said, we are repeating ourselves. Go read the threads above and make your mind up about what you want to do for children, for girls, for boys. I am not leaving because I don't feel passionate about educating our kids, just I know when it is time to stop beating a dead horse. Actually, that horse died sometime yesterday. You guys are just late to the game.

Enjoy!

 

That's a pity, It is difficult to find a woman to talk to about gender in gaming (or even just gender) in an unemotive way but I enjoyed reading what you did have to say anyway.

 

Because a women in your position would have to work harder. You benefit from systemic privilege based on your race and gender (assuming you are a white or Asian man). Your statement has the unwritten assumption that women can succeed without having to work hard. That is the exact opposite of what is true.

Lacking that foundational understanding of how the world works one can't really have an intelligible conversation about this topic.

 

Largely the same way that boys are exposed away from it. Namely by having very little computer-related subjects taught at primary and secondary schools. My secondary school, for example, had a single computer-related course and it was focused on improving typing and some preliminary experience with Microsoft Office.

Exposure though is only partially the problem. You also have to deal with girls having the belief that game development is a masculine role. Take Samantha's comment on the Kickstarter. She felt that video games were a "boy thing" and thus had no real interest in them. The summer camp taught her she enjoyed game development.

 

Hi Ryiah, Well, things may have changed a little now, schools have become more cyber oriented and where I live in New Zealand most children are expected to have some sort of device for research or at least access to one. But the teachers are often well behind the kids in what to do with them so as you say game creation is seldom on the syllabus.
Your statement about girls not believing that they are suited to game creation is fair comment but I doubt that it is a male conspiracy, it's well known that in the early years girls are more studious and left brain than boys but once the hormones kick in then priorities change..perhaps this has an effect on their belief system also.

 

It had nothing to do with conspiracy. It was based off observations, comments and discussions with girls. I've had discussions with at least two in my immediately vicinity, my sister being one of them, who felt that computer-related fields were for boys.

I'm in Virginia, USA for the record. Our rural areas tend to be a bit old fashioned to be polite.

 

Something I have noticed is that once a girl can achieve some small game development and thinks "yeah I can do this" then it can take off. It's a confidence thing. It's the same for guys but girls seem to need that initial boost more.

 

And yours has the unwritten assumption that men can succeed without having to work hard*. As a general rule, everyone has to "work hard"*. It's true that in plenty of places women have to work comparatively harder than men and/or put up with far more crap while they're doing it to achieve similar levels of success, so I'll not pretend that the world is a fair place in that regard.

Still, trivializing the effort men put into things to further a discussion just opens it up to bickering about whether or not men do indeed get it easy. Whether they do or not, I feel that discussing that rather than the problems often faced by women devalues the potential learning that may come out of the discussion.

Edit: To be clear about what I mean by this... I as a guy am not going to learn a darn thing from hearing other guys jump to their own defense explaining that they had to work hard to get where they are. On the other hand, a mature discussion about how women aren't treated fairly might get me to consider a thing or two that I hadn't previously thought of and thus help me be a better person in the future.

* It's true that some people can indeed find some forms of success without working hard, but regardless of gender they're such a minority that I really don't think they factor into this in any meaningful way.