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High School Game Programming Girls

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by calmcarrots, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. calmcarrots

    calmcarrots

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    So this amazed me:
    ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-award-winning-rpg-the-hole-story

    Its really cool to see HIGH SCHOOL girls develop games. On top of that, they are all females. This is a huge step for the game development community. I hope this inspires more women to get into programming because it's not only for men!!
     
  2. Kinos141

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    Your redundency is redundent. lol.

    Otherwise, yeah, it is pretty cool to see girls in the forfront of game making, but it's not like they weren't there before. Amy Hennig wrote for Legacy of Kain, Jak and Daxter and the Uncharted series, all games that I personally love.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
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  3. calmcarrots

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    Lol did not notice that. Those are my favorite games too!
     
  4. Stormbreaker

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    Women have some pretty high up places in 343 Industries too (Bonnie Ross for example)
     
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  5. Dabeh

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    Game looks ok-ayyy, but I wish they didn't have to mention the word girl 33 times in their kickstarter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
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  6. landon912

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    Pro-women sexism is still sexism. Why does it matter that they are females? If you wish to truly eliminate the gender gap, you'd treat both genders exactly the same. Not give some mediocre project massive attention because it was made by all girls. Why does it matter that this industry is mainly male? We shouldn't provide incentives to close a gap, when the gap is created mainly from the lack of interest from the majority of females. If a female wants to be a developer then there isn't anything standing in their way that others aren't facing too.

    Sorry to go on a somewhat off topic rant.
     
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  7. RockoDyne

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    I get that it's a bunch of girls, but why does a group of high school student's need money to make a game?

    Suddenly, this story went from "high school girls make a game" to "high school girls raise money to tell someone else to make their game." Not the precedence I think they were trying to set.
     
  8. Teila

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    I mentor a few girls that are making game content and having a blast! I would love to see more women in the industry, even here on the Unity forums. I feel rather outnumbered, I must admit. :)
     
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  9. Deleted User

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    According to the internets:

    Male Nurses in the workforce = 9.6%
    Female Game Devs in the workforce = 11%

    Why does it only matter when there are more men in a field????

    excuse me while I go raise money to become a registered nurse....


    (the last statement is validated by the fact that I'm a guy...)
     
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  10. yoonitee

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    heh heh. How did I guess their game would feature fairies, princesses and unicorns? :p

    Well I suppose if girls like those sort of games its good that girls are making them. I'd rather not have to make a game with pink unicorns or my-little-ponies in it. Oh wait... I had to do that for my job. :(
     
  11. calmcarrots

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    Bro I feel for you.... Im so sorry
     
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  12. Teila

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    Actually, a few years ago, game companies tried to target girls and most of the games were about puppies, horses, and makeup/dress up. I did not know any young girls who would play those games. My girls play DC Universe, Minecraft, and Star Wars Galaxies. They like puppies and horses, but not as a game. The gaming companies have no idea what girls or women like and oddly when they get it right, like SWG, they don't seem to understand why and learn nothing from it.
     
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  13. landon912

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    Oddly enough, the only games I know my lady friends to play are GTA. Ponies and puppies? Nah ;)
     
  14. Teila

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    Which is one reason it would be nice to get more women in the game industry. :) I do think there is an entire untapped market out there and I think there are certainly ways to appeal to women gamers, but I don't think it is through treating women as if they enjoy entirely different genres than men.
     
  15. angrypenguin

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    Why does it matter that Lucky Strike is toasted?

    It doesn't.

    But they were the only ones selling it that way, so it got them the attention they needed to sell more stuff.

    Most people on Kickstarter talk first and foremost about how their game idea is awesome. I think it's a smart move to wear something else up front to get some initial differentiation.

    And while I agree that any sexism is sexism, since when is simply announcing the gender of a team sexist in and of itself? If they happen to all be girls then why not tell us? Some people might find that cool or even inspiring, and nobody else should care.

    Plus, I think it's a generally positive thing to promote the concept that game development doesn't have to be a guy-centric endeavor. You know it, I know it, plenty of people know it... but unfortunately "plenty of people" isn't "everybody".
     
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  16. Deleted User

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    AngryPenguin the reason why they should not emphasize the fact that they are all girls is because that IS sexist. If we truly want equality then we would do what we want, and work in the fields that we want without advertising it. If this was the first ever case of a girl working on a game and there had been some sort of law stating that women could not make games then this would indeed be a "Cool or even inspiring" event, but it is not.
     
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  17. jp122

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    Why only gender equality?
    Both men and women from disadvantaged communities are being left out.
    Entire countries are being left out.
     
  18. Dabeh

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    They didn't just simply announce it and let it be, they announced it 33 times and made that the selling point of their game, I honestly still have no clue what it's about other than it's a girl with a shovel on a quest without any..violence I guess?

    This man gets it.
     
  19. landon912

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    The fact that is a girl only team, is not sexism. At least, I won't go as far to say that, due to the fact that I don't know the whole story behind it. If it is by mandate, yes. By coincident, no.

    However, as noted in this thread already, the term girl was used 33 times in their campaign. Next, they'll be telling us that one of the features of the gameplay is that it was made only by girls. They are using their gender, as free attention and therefore possible payment.

    I don't get why this is seen as positive. There was no discrimination laws against women during the technology explosion. There wasn't any single thing limiting them that every other person wasn't also facing. They created the gap out of their lack of interest in general, not by limiting laws from their government.

    If I replaced the word "girl" with "white male" in their campaign, do you think it would get the same reaction? No. That's sexism, where gender matters when it shouldn't.
     
  20. Dabeh

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    Question: Does anyone actually have any clue who this money is going to? Is it going to "Girls make games" or to the girls making the game? Because all..the pledges are quite horrible. You don't get anything in return except a few small things that cost roughly $10 to produce at max, you just..pledge for girl(s) to be sponsored to go to the camp? Huh?

    For $200 you get to
    sponsor a girl..halfway.


    Update: It's now 36 words. Only 6 backers have commented so far but every single one has mentioned their gender..it's obvious that this was their selling point.



    Anyway, this thread doesn't have long before the extremists on both sides of the fence turn this into a mosh-pit, I can already see the arguments now..."Females will always want more!" "Women are suppressed!" "Misogynist!" etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
  21. Teila

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    You know what makes me sad? You guys could be talking about how to support these girls, or any young people who want to get into gaming, boys included. Instead, you get into some ridiculous argument/discussion about sexism.

    Sure....sexism exists. It has for years. I worked as a geologist, a male dominated field. I loved it and had no problems working with the men. I laughed when a client offered me a pink hardhat. I chuckled when my boss took me to meet a client but suggested I not change out of my short skirt. Doesn't mean it didn't bother me, but I learned to play in the world I had to play in.

    So now we have some girls who are using the fact they are girls to get funding for their game. Okay, so what? They are playing the game just like we all do. Better that then then misrepresent themselves and their product, put up fake videos, and take money without ever finishing the game.

    Discussing how lousy the pledge items are is legitimate. Discussing how they are women using the fact they are women to get funding is just dumb. Sorry, guys. You don't think that it goes the other way? ;) I would guess that many gamers trust male developers more than females. They think we are going to put princesses and unicorns in our games.
     
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  22. Deleted User

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    But Teila, they did put Unicorns in their game...
     
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  23. Dabeh

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    At least you got a pink hardhat..that time I wanted a pink hardhat I got laughed at :oops:, pink hardhats are cute.

    Exactly, they're using the girls...the girls won't even be programming or doing the art. The work is contracted out except for the programming, which is done by the LearnDistrict team(Kudos to Landon for noticing this).
    I'm not really sure what the girls are getting out of this...pocket money?

    Well, you should watch the video they have up on their website, http://girlsmakegames.com/.

    Here's two quotes from their video:

    And...here's the funniest part...
    /finish
     
  24. Teila

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    So? They are using unicorns! Just because it is there doesn't mean you have to donate.

    As for using the girls, so maybe the girls designed the game? Designing is a legitimate part of game design. What they are doing is empowering these girls. Maybe some of them will become programmers or artists. It all starts somewhere! I did plenty of research for my college professors, even shoving out a fluvial flume for weeks. Did he use me? Of course he did, that is what they do! But I learned a lot, had my name on papers with him and have no regrets.

    I am honestly not sure why this bothers you guys so much. It takes nothing away from your awesome work. In fact, one of those girls may someday create a game that your daughters might want to play...or maybe not. :)

    I really doubt the girls or their "users" are going to make huge amounts of money on this.
     
  25. Dabeh

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    Forgive me for not replying to it all, I'm kind of tired.

    These girls don't need empowerment, if they wanted to they could have spent more time on this and made an awesome or just an okay game and they probably could have done some decent marketing since they're a team of all girls(which would have been okay as long as they didn't oversell it IMO).

    Maybe they did want to...but it looks like that's out the door now that Girls Make Games has taken it over and now will be making it themselves.

    I think these girls are capable enough to make this game, so why do they need empowerment? What's stopping them from making this game in their after school hours? Why don't they create a club at their high school to make games?

    Do you think that these girls might find it insulting you think they need help because they're female? I'm sure you're insulted when a guy asks if you need help when you're clearly capable of it, just because you're female.
     
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  26. Deleted User

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    Also Teila, the point of the game is to rescue a Princess...
     
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  27. Dabeh

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    ...you have made me laugh too much for one day.
     
  28. Kinos141

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    Personally, I'd like to see more groups of people represented in games honestly and fairly.
    Hey, you can't change too much at one time, baby steps... lol :D
     
  29. Dabeh

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    Me too, I'd like to see more little people, preferably a gangster white little person with a god complex and tough guy attitude, who is also a female.

    I would like to see her with a limp too, but she tries to shrug it off saying she has a sprained ankle when someone asks about it.

    Her great grandmother should be an Asian little person with a condescending attitude that likes to regularly insult people and then shrugs it off with "Sarcasm, learn it."

    Her great grandfather should be a 6'5" black muscular god fearing person that talks gently and gets regularly beaten by his little person wife.
     
  30. Teila

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    LOL Yeah, that makes me laugh.

    But..so what?

    I think that learning is a process and this is simply a small step. By the way, LearningDistrict is a company that makes educational games. They are not a threat at all and I doubt this game is going to rake in the money. In the process, the girls feel good about themselves.

    Did you guys read the Kickstarter page? The kids had to actually make a plan and present it! How cool is that? Imagine how these kids felt when the adults actually listened to their ideas, looked at their storyboards, and treated them like real people. :) How many high school kids get that opportunity?

    Of course, there are many game contests out there for us adults. And many Unity games are entered, someone wins, and they get a publisher, who "uses" the game developer and makes money of those games they publish. It is a win-win situation for both the designer/developer and the publisher, at least it should be.

    So someone is doing this for kids! Great! We live in a world where hands-on work will get us much further these days than a Ph.D. so the more kids are given opportunities to learn and grow while building skills they can use in the future, the better it will be for them and all of us. Besides, the skills they are learning are much more than game design. They are also learning to make presentations, organize a project, work in a team, etc. Plus, they gain confidence and the ability to clarify their ideas.

    As for the story, I passed the video along to a couple of teen girls and they liked it. It is a bit young for them, but they know younger girls they think would enjoy it. Not my cup of tea but then there should be a wide variety of games that appeal to everyone, not just your hack and slash zombie horror games. ;)

    Shame on you guys who want to take this away from these girls. My goodness, they are adorable!

    Oh, and wanted add, these girls are not victims. I am sure they do not feel used and I bet their parents are ecstatic, not for money, but because of the joy this is bringing to those kids.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
  31. landon912

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    I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to put down these girls. Hell, I'm glad they got this amazing opportunity! I wish I could have done that when I was younger! Unfortunately, I'm not a girl and therefore not allowed; because you know....not sexism.

    Congrats to the people who got to experience this, I'm sure it was amazing! It's impressive that much could be learned and accomplished in three weeks! I simply don't agree with the organization, nor it's fundamental values.
     
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  32. Teila

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    I agree it should be boys and girls. My guess it is easier to get funding for a contest that targets girls than both boys and girls. Personally, I have a much easier time getting young girls involved in game design than boys. The boys are too busy playing games in many cases and don't want to take the time to learn to program or do artwork. :)
     
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  33. calmcarrots

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    Guys, in my opinion I think it is rare to see an ALL GIRLS team. I have never heard of a team like that and something like this inspires women to get into computer science jobs. It is somewhat sexist to make the Girls Make Games contest only for girls. It is also ridiculous and stupid to make their team gender their selling point. The thing is, nobody is telling women to not get into video games. Its male dominated but doesnt mean we dont like women. Same thing goes for.... fashion design. Its women dominated but they dont exclude males. Anyways the point is that if these women want to use this as their selling point, then fine go ahead. It is very stupid and this greatly affects their game. Their game is now soaked with ponies and rainbows because of the fact they are making women their selling point. Most males wont buy the game now because of its current design and those girls will soon realize that.
     
  34. Teila

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    I think the girls made the game they thought girls would like. They are young and inexperienced, not stupid. Remember, they are probably all around 14-17 years old. We know better. We know that women come in all sizes, shapes, and flavors of game players. These kids are still kids, probably not even big time gamers.

    Give them a break. I doubt doing this has anything to with selling. It has to do with completing a project, following through and learning. You can't judge them on your scale.

    I know that selling games is the focus here at the Unity forums but I also happen to know that Unity REALLY values education. It is one thing that drew me here.

    No one is telling women to get into game design or development. No one tells men not to be nurses. However, there are more male game developers and more female nurses. We want our young girls to know that they don't have to be nurses or teachers and our young boys to know they can be nurses. That is why things like this exist...to inform, educate and force us to expand.

    If you had a daughter who was interested in this, would you tell her not to go because she would make stupid games? Or would you encourage her? I see a lot of stupid games on the Unity forums, sorry...and they are not all about unicorns and ponies. ;)

    I feel as if I am the only one on this forum who sees this as a good thing! Isn't that odd? I have no idea if any of the other posters are women. :) Honestly, I don't get the problem here. I am baffled and a little disappointed.
     
  35. Aiursrage2k

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    If the games good who cares who makes it. I guess the only thing would be is this game any good and if a bunch of males made the same game would it get as much recognition. As long as we are judged by the same standards and not saying oh its "pretty good for a girl"
     
  36. Teila

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    I wanted to add something. I love this place...but honestly, this thread makes me feel like I do not belong. I think I understand the points there though:

    So it is stupid to make a game that is anything other than what men would like to play.

    It is bad to encourage an all girl team because it is sexist.

    Feminism is bad in all its iterations, even when it encourages girls and women to try male dominated fields. Groups that do that have bad values.

    A company publishes a game for young girls and they are victims. A company publishes a game for a group of teenage male or mixed gendered group, and it is a great opportunity.

    A group that is introducing young girls to new opportunities in male dominated fields is bad because it doesn't allow boys to compete, even though there are hundreds of contests out there for men/women/boys/girls. However, it is okay to have contest that limit contestants based on age, level of experience, money (fees to join), genre of game, engine used, etc.

    Even though thousands of developers get attention for lousy games, this group of girls are getting attention just because they are girls. It is not because they created a game that appeals to little girls, a rather overlooked genre, but because they are girls themselves. A niche game in any other overlooked genre would be innovative, original, unique! But not a "girl". It is stupid...see above.

    Kickstarter might be okay for bad games, but it is not okay for a group of girls that made a bad game because they are girls and people might donate because they are girls. This in spite of the fact that many bad games succeed and get funding on Kickstarter.

    Did I miss anything?

    Honestly, this is EXACTLY why we need more groups like this who do encourage girls and allow them to compete without anyone telling them they are stupid, victimized, have questionable values, are in over their head, and make bad games. I cannot imagine a unicorn, princess and pony game winning a contest with boys. Yet, a little girl might like a game like that may never get to see one because "the game is stupid and won't sell". Just because guys dominate the game world doesn't mean we shouldn't get games to play and build. Unfortunately, big companies won't take a chance on girl games because girls don't play as many games. They are not the market. It is up to Indies to fill those niches, Indies like those young girls.

    You guys proved the point of the entire project!

    Off to put this all in my blog. :)
     
  37. Deleted User

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    One of my favorite games was about saving a princess, you might have heard about it, it was Super Mario Bros....

    And Teila, I have given up on you as you have taken to spouting off ridiculous claims regarding the Male opinion's on this thread...
     
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  38. landon912

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    Yes, the whole point of each of our arguments.
     
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  39. Teila

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    Then I guess you guys need to reword your arguments since this woman didn't get it. ;) You did however, get me riled enough to start spreading the word about the Kickstarter, so thanks!

    Oh, and the ridiculous claims about feminism and the bad values and all that? Come on, guys!

    It is a bunch of kids!
     
  40. RockoDyne

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    Which forces me to beg the question, why are they actually raising money?

    I don't want to belittle the spirit of what they are doing, but I'm not getting their special treatment. If they wanted to make a game, then they should just make a game.
     
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  41. Murgilod

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    misogyny.html up in here.
     
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  42. Teila

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    Maybe to finish the game and publish it? It is a part of the indie process and it sounds like the girls are going through the entire process, not just design.

    There are lots of contests out there that you can join. If you do, and you win, send me a link to the Kickstarter campaign. I will be fair and also post that on my blog. ;)
     
  43. Dennis59

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    I think this is great. There is a contest that encourages high school age girls to create a game and they have managed to carry away the prize. And they want to go on Kickstarter to get some funding. Maybe that's a good idea or maybe it's not. What is so bad about that? Maybe Teila can join a competition like that but you guys may have more of a problem. Find your own competition.

    On a separate note I know that in the United States most girls (and boys, for that matter) would prefer to do anything other than learn to program and write an award winning computer game. I'll bet that is true in the countries you call home too. So give these kids their moment in the sun. Congratulate them and grumble in peace.
     
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  44. landon912

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    No it's the disagreement with groups striving to close a gender gap by creating one themselves.

    You seem to all think that disagreeing with a group that is for the advancement of women, is hatred of women. No, I disagree with the methods by which they attempt to do such. I hate PETA, I love animals and have a puppy. But I'm sure you all think I must be an abusive boyfriend and dog owner.
     
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  45. Murgilod

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    Uh, no. Men already have loads of opportunity in STEM and gaming. This is like railing against programs that help minority groups get into college and university.
     
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  46. landon912

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    Hmm, the last time I heard about STEM at my school, a lot of girls were in it. Did it suddenly become men only?
     
  47. calmcarrots

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    Excuse me, sorry for offending but what I was trying to say is that this industry is male dominated. It is not smart to make a game that does not appeal to the males because the majority of the gaming population (males) would not buy it. I am not trying to be sexist but that is a business decision. I think it is awesome that girls are making games, that is why I made this thread. These girls ARE smart for actually differing themselves from their classmates with something special like this.
     
  48. Deleted User

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    Someone give me a legitimate and fair answer to this question and I will concede:

    Why as a male do I have to work hard in my respective field to get my education, and succeed, when a female can have freebies like free advertising (which their kickstarter undoubtedly will get)?

    And please don't try to validate your answer by bringing up history that had nothing to do with me or you...
     
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  49. Teila

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  50. calmcarrots

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