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Hi - I have a question . .

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by jbb1979, Aug 8, 2019.

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  1. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I put my demon in Unity last night and, have made a ball that rolls around, using WSAD-keys, and, having to avoid demons - - now I need to give them basic idle animation, perhaps two or, three that gets mixed randomly, ideally 4 and, a walk animation - -

    I need to make a player character ( a monk ) later, but for now I can test and, work on game -play mechanics, using the ball and, creating level - -

    I will start by making simple rocks, that have Right color, then Add those to Create basic level and, purpose - -

    The monk is on mission from God, to go to Hell and, see what It looks like - -$

    Basically, this is sort of concept stage or, Pre - viz, I'll use simple assets to create the game and, flesh out the level, I Hope I'll learn more about What's needed, as I do that - - I have One enemy type, and the player has to sneak through a Demon - infested outer area, leading into Hell it-self - -

    Rock 8924.png



    But, for me, I just want to add simple assets, that I can quickly make and, start Testing the Concepts - -

    But, over-all the Story is important, because like in a theater, the ' Acts ' of the play, are The levels . .. So, in the end, the game will be over, when there's nothing more to do, no More ' acts ' Or, ' Parts ' - -

    I hope making the simpler assets will be a good development choice, later, I'll update the models, making them half-way realistic / photo - real and, if that's enough I'll Leave the details there - -

    Over-all, I have the story I want done Going in my mind And, All my Decisions Serve that Goal, That purpose - -

    I've thought about getting a drawing pad or, a 2D scanner, so I can start drawing concept art, To paper Or, on a Sketch pad, that way I can get them into my computer, from the paper and, it's much easier to make my ideas first on paper, with a pen, it just feels more natural, for me - -

    How do you go from story to concept to Final product - - And, do any-one Maybe want to start exploring story-writing here, since for me it's a Quite important thing, it Shapes the over-all Vision of the project And, All design choices, for better or, worse, Further That

    That's why I want to talk about stories here, possibly Character design and, So on - - In the end, all these elements, the 3D stage, the Setting, serve this one purpose, they serve the story and, Goal, Of The story - -$

    That's why I want to explore and, develop stories, because they help, Give clarity and, direction, to the project, along with Concept art, sketches, Early ideas - - what's the best way of getting all this together, Make it Work - - that's why I want to discuss stories, because they're a big part, of Most games, Though Some games Don't have them, Like ' Space Invaders ' - - But, Most games we've Played And, loved, Have had Great stories And, Characters - -
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  2. Not_Sure

    Not_Sure

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    First off, FANTASTIC name for a racing game.

    Seriously.

    That said, do the Nintendo approach.

    Start with a simple demo level to experiment with your controller using only primatives.

    Then tweak and tweak and tweak your controller until it's fun.

    Fold as many functions as you can into single core mechanics. Like Mario, jumping was his core mechanic so they made sure combat revolved around jumping. Even the fire flowers shoot downward at a 45 degree angle making sure you had to use jumping to aim it.

    Next, write a story that fits the gameplay.

    In Mario Sunshine the introduced flood, so they set the game on a tropical island.

    Lastly, don't sweat the story.

    Like John Carmack said "Story in video games is like story in a ("Adult Movie"). Everyone expects it, but no one really cares."
     
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  3. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    Hey man, do you want to work on the game with me, It's about a Crew of Small -town Street racers, With modded cars and, They find out the local sheriff is Dirty And, corrupt - - so, They take to the Road, to Expose him Even, if They're just considered criminals And, not Worth much - - The Sheriff is giving them a Really hard time, Breaking the rules And, Treating Every-body in the Town badly but, He's Too respected And, Strong - - So, the Street racers Come up with a plan To have him exposed - - Some Poor, dis-owned kids Stepping up and, Proving they're Worth A damn, when it matters - -§ <3
    Hi five 234534.jpg

    :D

    Street justice, For the win - -$

    think Fast And the furious, But better - -$

    A Quick idea, for Box - art !!§
    polic78235.jpg
    $ $. .
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  4. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner

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    I agree with the game design first, story later. History is always useful to look back over. Having a story, but scrapping it because it gets in the way of the gameplay gives you Quake, trying to implement a story and having good enough game play gets you Daikatana.
     
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  5. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I agree with that, there are some games where there is a Great story But, Poor implementation . .

    It's an interesting problem but, if you have a story that's so good, you just have to tell it, it can give energy to the game making, all the hard work . .

    But yeah, I agree having a Nice story buy, no Game to back it up is also Rather dumb - -

    Yeah, I remember Quake 2, that game had no story, lol lol

    Do you remember Redneck Rampage Or, Heretic - - Those games were better, had a Big story but, the Games them-selves Couldn't carry it, They needed More polish - -
     
  6. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    It has
    Sorry, I for not an official source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_II
    Somehow it happens, it is more than enough, to provide hours of fun.
     
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  7. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Not only that, but even the stage progression carries a narrative element through the design choices made.
     
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  8. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    In the end, when it comes down to actually writing the code that really works - you will come to find that story really is not everything. It isn't even 90% close to everything. The first and foremost is indeed gameplay - because as I (or a gamer) browse for games to play - I am not looking for a plot point, I am looking for "Action Adventure" "Action RPG" "Hack n Slash" or even "Point and Click". If you're going for a heavily story driven game, I feel you will be bored with a game like Quake (as expected from your comment about it not having any story; hence not your cup of tea) or any other flashy/action packed game. If you want versatile gameplay or really fancy mechanics - you must have a story/plot that allows such fancy mechanics, again, like Quake's story. Such games tend to be very simple - take a look at most japanese RPGs with fancy battle systems. Or even Zelda Breath of the Wild. Can you imagine Zelda Breath of the Wild being in a game with a plot as heavy as say - Planescape Torment (if you haven't played, it is heavy on the dialogue scenes and branching paths for choice progression)? Or any of the Dungeon and Dragons'esque games like Baldur's Gate? It would really be oddly placed.
    Heavily story driven games tend to be point n' click adventures - puzzle adventures - visual novels... Stein's Gate comes to mind. OR if you do really have a great story to tell - break it into chunks and create several games/media to support the story - like the .hack series did.
     
  9. Marrt

    Marrt

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    My take on this:

    Start with gameplay
    , a lot of games with exceptional mechanics|Graphics|Stories are ruined for me because the Avatars or the game itself feels to rigid|static|unfluid.

    BUT if it is a story game, without much gameplay or physicality, then you have to think about:
    1. Getting the players interest in the story (from beginning).
    It has to be subtle, some movies and games try to be dramatic by a battle or death scene right at the start. Battles are mostly not appreciated by the Choreography. They are valued by the stakes and characters pitted against each other and how much the outcome really matters in the story. But when you hardly know any Character, this is futile, for me at least. LOtR did this, but there it was just a narrated intro scene to prime the audience about what to expect so it was a totally legit way of doing it.

    2. Less lore is more.
    I instantly shy away from games that confront me with lots of spoken or written(juck!) lore, skipable or not. My rule: In a game, never force your story onto the player, make it only discoverable, then every piece gathered feels like you have earned something that is now yours.
    • Take Dark Souls for example, the mandatory story is completely vague. But if you read item-description, find special places, remember boss & location names, the whole thing comes together - but You were the investigator! You understand the world because You earned this knowledge instead of getting it shoved into your brain- a game is interactive! Discovering a sword in the woods or crafting one feels times better than just receiving one during the main quest
    • Don't do the simple choices stuff, players will just skip back and try each one out if you allow it, so you either allow it for bad gameplay or you have to cripple the save mechanics to make this bahavior even more insufferable. Rather think about how books can be interactive, like Game Of Thrones. How is it interactive? You are always on the edge because you want to anticipate the actions of the well defined characters in the scenarios they are thrown into. And this works well, because the Starks will always do the stupid righteous thing, Varis always tries to minimize long term collateral damage, Jaime will always choose family... but if they don't, you were wrong in a good way because now you learned another facette of that character, how he changed or what he was hiding(twists). The anticipation followed by the reveal of behavior is making the book interactive.
    • Honorable mention: Nox(Westwood,2000) did the whole intro story during the installation of the game. Back then installations took some time, so it felt like this game wanted to NOT waste your time from the get go by offering something while you have to wait, well done (It is also one of my favorite games but sadly the Diablo2 launch killed it from being appreciated because apparently: loot>gameplay)
    In some games i skipped so much of the mandatory stuff that at the end i would like to have this dialogue option: "I don't know what you did and why i am the one chasing you for it, but i know you are the bad guy and i will end you right here"

    But if you still want to do forced story, and weaker gameplay, you have to find a way to make it worthwhile in some other way, and i am sure there are undiscovered ways to do that.


    But don't listen to me, i am someone that considers Witcher3 bad, because of the easy combat (infinite evading) and its juvenile power fantasy protagonist even though i am not a hipster... i liked the baby quest though, i am always in for a good abortion story
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  10. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I see you're from Austria, it's nice to meet some-one from a Socialist background, the media is mostly American where I live - --

    My aim here wasn't to make people think like I do but, talk about what I find useful in making games - -

    I wish I had been in Austria when Iraq was invaded, Denmark Got their foot stuck in that mess - - To this day, I am wanting to leave my country and, seek a fairer nation, to reside in . . ..

    I don't know about Witcher 3 but, a friend said it was one of the best games ever, and it's gotten good reviews from most people, Almost all - -

    That doesn't mean they're right but, they made a game many people liked and, it became succesful, that way - -

    My point is, if we take one of the biggest game succes stories, of the last ten years and, say that's a bad thing, a bad way of doing things, I don't know . . I like the idea of the Witcher but, not the graphics or, content - - The game itself looks fun and, if you need more difficulty, just don't do the easy things, I often increase the difficulty to off-set an easy game but, I don't know - -

    I wanted to talk about how making stories can make game making more fun and, interesting - - I didn't want to say other ways were wrong, just that I find it useful, to focus on stories, because that gives ' energy ', to the entire project, in full - - However, if you don't want to think that way, I'm not against it, either - -$

    The reason I'm saying about Iraq is, two of my friends committed suicide, after the war - - They couldn't cope with it, it caused a down-ward spiral . . I wish I had been left out, of that, friends from 5 - 10 years ago, in the end they couldn't live with what happened - - So, I'm rather critical of the damn war and, every-thing it caused - - For me, it's been a cause of regret and, sorrow - - That's a part of why I want to tell stories, to explore their grief and, depression . .. :oops:

    I also want to explore what really happened there, in a game, I've been trying to understand it but, the media doesn't tell me the facts

    They truth is, it send me to Hell . . That's why I'm making games to explore that and, Make it right, That's my motivation -- And, to feel my friends will finally be let into heaven, some - how . . Part of the reason I make Hell - centered games is because, I want to meet the politicians who did this and, see what they get, Down there - - And, I want to save as many people as can, from every joining them - -

    I've been so sad and, regret-ful - -

    I've also been heavily involved in peace- oriented work and, redemption

    I want to tell my friends stories and, Bring Them home
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  11. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    You should find a better outlet for your issues. Sitting in front of screen and stewing is gonna make thi s worse and worse.

    You're not the first person to suffer from mindless war. Won't be the last. Just gotta find something positive to do and forget the S***.

    I suggest.make games about something that inspires you. I really love animals, so that's what I am focusing on.
     
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  12. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    Most stories - are born out of war. Every story - every good story - contains some form of war, psychological, political, territorial ... Age of Empires...Call of Duty... Vlad the impaler was also known as Dracula (he was a real Romanian Ruler known for impaling his enemies) and if it were not for him we would not have had Castlevania...almost every single fantasy world with knights and sorcerers and kings are all based on historical war... most Miyazaki films - were in fact his interpretations of World War 2.

    It is natural and very normal for you to feel this way. However - creating something with an unhealthy mindset is a recipe for disaster and we can learn from history what happened to many such an artist who lived miserable, lonely lives as they worked on masterpieces with unhealthy mindsets.

    I would certainly recommend you to first heal yourself before venturing further into creating as judging from your posts - you are still under heavy stress. It will do you no good. You must find inspiration to heal yourself. Find what you love. Let go of what happened. Once you are out of your own mind's war - you will certainly find it rewarding to create something.
     
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  13. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    Most good stories are about ending war, not fighting them for the sake of fighting them .. Take World war 2 movies, they don't idolize the killing and, the murders . . They show that being good means to fight to stop war .. If we need war to tell stories, it's not good - -

    I want to talk about the difficult side of war, that even if you win but, have done bad things, you'll pay - -

    That God even has power over men, when they try to show their biggest, grandest powers, to take the life of another, when people think they've reached the peak, of own power, they can do anything - -

    That they are actually small and, still caught in the divine plot or, Story - - §

    Wars bring out heroism and, Valor, we admire those but, I don't think many people admire war, just for war's sake - -

    I don't know, I Don't hope wars are necessary to Make good media Or, Games - -

    Thanks for the advice, by the way, I need help, I mean I need to find a Positive, healthy outlet, for my Trauma - --
     
  14. Deckard_89

    Deckard_89

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    More recently, John Carmack also said this about that quote:

    "This old quote still pops up, but I caveat it today -- there are undeniably lots of games where the story is the entire point, and they can be done well. I do still hold that the most important games have been all about the play, not the story."

    A much more rounded, less antagonistic view than his original quote I think.
     
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  15. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    It's true. Think about games with amazing storylines - but very shallow gameplay. They flopped. Not one game with a really good story became famous when it had really boring gameplay.

    Chrono Trigger comes to mind. It had a complex story - involving time travel, complex characters, heart, and really innovative gameplay for its time. Its most intriguing plot point - Time Travel - was inserted well into the gameplay by having the player do quests in one timeline, to influence a quest in another timeline. Or even how its great active battle system that got rid of random encounters and had a more action strategic combat. I cannot imagine Chrono Trigger being Chrono Trigger if it were to have a normal turn based combat system - with zero gameplay elements involving time travel and instead the time traveling was just another cut scene - like many games today tend to do with their plot points.
     
  16. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    You're right, I remember games that have been made about movies and, made to make a quick buck, from a franchise . .

    There have been many games made, spin - offs from movies that have had very bad game - play, and often the graphics have been bad, as well . . It seems particularly to happen with super - hero games, or some movie game done too quick, they usually have bad player movement, bad animations and, so on - -

    I do agree that there should be good, responsive game-play, I never said I didn't but, I find that having a good story as well, can energize the project and give a ' goal ', for every-one to work together, to make happen, to tell a story everybody feels is a good, decent story - - Also, I Never wanted to make a game with bad controls, that's counter - productive - - But, for me, I start with a story, a setting, some-thing I want to tell - - The same way super - hero games can often be bad, because the controls are bad and, graphics, because they expect it to be a good game, because they got a ' Famous ' character from some movie or, even comic - - The same way, dragging and dropping a bunch of assets, with a core story or, goal you want to achieve, can also create pretty games, that have no appeal - - I think writing a good story, coming up with great characters and, se1tting the mood with good drama and, sound-work ( music ) can elevate a game from ' irrelevant ' to, " Magnificent " and, that's why I think we should have a " Story work-shop ", where we can discuss drama, characters, and story . .

    I think the problem is we're not under-standing each other, I'm not against good game-play and, graphics, what I feel is, we should also see the story and, the characters as important, because they are also important elements of the final production - - Done well, they can elevate a game and, make a bland concept feel Rich, and deep - -
     
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  17. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    Again, I'm not against this but, where do you think the idea for time - travel came from . . Did it start with the Project - leader saying, I want to make a cool story about time - travel and, then they made it happen - - It seems to me, that when-ever you come up with a setting and an environment, for a game, you've almost created a little story it-self, that you want to tell - - And, you will almost certainly want NPC's in a game ( unless it's a mobile simple game ), so then the question becomes, what should those NPC's do, what's their motivation . ..

    Sooner or later, you have to create a story, for the player to have some-thing to do - - You have to write a back-drop story, explain why the characters are there, some intro dialogue that explains the whole game - - A problem is, running to some area, defeating some enemies then, repeat, it can get very boring ( it's called ' grind ', by gamers ) - -having a great story to tell, can fascinate and, leave the viewers in awe, like the movie ' Inception ' or, ' Matrix ', or ' Lord of the Rings ' - - Those movies had amazing stories, that under-pinned the entire thing, they had a message and, mission - -

    I think by diving into stories and, enhancing them, we can create some-thing accentuates the game-play and, so forth - - We can make the games better, by adding the element of a great story and, Fantastic characters - -

    Some video game characters have become legends, almost house-hold names, Dante from ' Dmc ', Blasckowicz from ' Wolfenstein ', ' Duke Nukem ' and, so on - - Games can become far more popular and, important, if they have great characters - - I'm not saying a game shouldn't have good game-play and, mechanics, I want to say, if it has a Good story, it could make the game even better, More use-ful - -

    In the end, having Cool Male characters and, Very Cute female characters can be some-thing that elevates the game, like a cherry, on top of ice - -

    So, I'm not saying coding and, game mechanics aren't important but, they become even more important if, there is a good story and, mission - - So, I think we should help each write stories, to make our games even Better And, fun - -$

    These Characters have become legends, already - -:
    bayonetta134.jpg

    dmc 82334.jpg

    semi samu124235.jpg

    ji 27334.jpg

    I'm just saying, you can make games with-out characters yes, but if you make iconic, worth-while characters and, Epic stories, that can help make the game better - - And, having a story you want to tell first, how-ever dumb or, silly . .. Can help you give direction to your game, no Matter what - -

    Also, making up stories is fun and, Building characters, Motives, etc etc - - Is quite fun and, if you have some-thing deep or, amazing to tell, It's good - --

    In a sense, I think the entire purpose of game engines is, to tell good stories or, present great characters - - That's my opinion but, I wanted to ask, do you think writing stories is fun, is a good time, well - spent - - If so, why not create a writers corner, where we can help each other by ping - pong discussion, about the stories and, offer inspiration and, good advice - -
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  18. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_(series)

    Chrono Trigger was produced in 1995 by Kazuhiko Aoki and directed by Akihiko Matsui, Yoshinori Kitase and Takashi Tokita. The development of the game was dubbed the "Dream Project", because it was headed by a "Dream Team" composed of supervisor Hironobu Sakaguchi, of Final Fantasy fame, as well as freelance supervisor Yuji Horii and character designer Akira Toriyama, both of Dragon Quest fame.[3] Yuuji Horii worked on the general outline of the story; as a fan of time travel fictions, such as the TV series The Time Tunnel, he focused on a theme of time travel for Chrono Trigger.[4] The outline was then finalized by story planner and script writer Masato Kato.[5]

    So yes - that is exactly how they made it. A story for a video game really is that simple.

    Learn first, talk later.



    Also side note:

    The only thing compelling about the games those characters you've mentioned is their gameplay. Story is not the focus.
     
  19. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    Well, Jim Raynor is almost the ' Rambo ' of video - games, Zero Suit Samus from Metroid is an almost Mythical female character - - Bayonetta is Known for her great stories and, also game - play and, Dante is one the most Iconic ' anti - heroes ' ever invented - -

    For me, the story is a huge part of the game and, what I want to do, with it . .. It makes it easier to create the game - play I want, when I know what the game is about, I'm not saying you can't develop a game based on mechanics first but, it's more common to start with a story and, work from there - - It feels more natural, I think - - My point is, if some one wants to discuss stories with me or, improve them together, I'm open to it - -

    And all those game makers who don't like stories, can just ignore it - -
     
  20. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I agree writing good code and, Great gameplay is use-ful and, I Agree that's The Hall-mark of a Great Game-maker - - That Being said, I also think stories are part of what Makes a Game a great experience and, as are Great characters And, stories . ..

    So, what I want to encourage is, to start giving you the Skills to Make good Concept art, Early drawings and, also How to write early Dialogue and, so on - - I'm not saying it should replace Coding or, Game mechanics and, if you like coding more than making characters, I Don't want any-body To stop doing what They like - -

    I've always Loved Books And, good movies, They usually Have cool Or, Fun stories - - Though one can make a game with-out Any story and, It Can be a Great game, I Want to Start a Discussion And, a place where we can Help each other in Doing that part of it, as well - - I don't mean a pure Writing Or, story place but, a place where Game - makers looking for help to enhance Or, improve their stories Can talk about that, Since it's Great fun Going from Early concepts To, Mid - level 3D character To, Final work - -

    I also think those things can motivate one to push through the harder places and, Not get stuck - --

    So, I want to help you write stories, Make characters, Create settings - - Is their a Good way of doing that, Are their Tricks, Can we Learn from Each others Mistakes And, Improve - -

    I Don't want to take any-thing away from Game development, the Point ultimately is To turn these Stories And, Great Characters into Games, that Work and, Can Play in Unity, but I also want to Encourage others in This area and, Help them when I can - - I Love games And, a big part of it Are their Great stories - - Let's Write some, Have fun - -- Maybe Ultimately Having great stories and, characters can motivate us to Finish games or, Inspire New mechanics Or, Game-play - -$
     
  21. Deckard_89

    Deckard_89

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    Actually I think I may have been misunderstood. I'm all for story, my point was just that people like to use the old John Carmack quote to try and prove story is not important in games, when in fact he's more recently said he no longer sees it as black & white as that and many games where story is the focus have done it very well - it's just that he still believes the gameplay / interactivity focused games are the ones that have been more impactful to the industry, hence their perceived importance.
     
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  22. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I agree, any game should have a Strong game-play And, Feel great - -§

    But, I think Games could also benefit from Good stories And, Character Design so, I Think we Should also be able to Discuss that here - -

    A Prime example of Good art And, Amazing Characters is > >



    My point is, This is an awesome character design and, The Video Seems to hint at a Bigger story, the Idea That there are Hidden worlds, All Around us - - That's An amazing Idea, for a game, a Story idea - - There are These hidden Worlds, All Around us And, The Main Character Travels There and, Gets into Quests and, Mysteries - -

    My Point is, Unity is an EXCELLENT Engine to Tell such Stories And, Turn them from Raw Ideas into a Finished, Playable experience, For all - -

    So, I Think we Should spend time Improving those things here and, Talk about them - - To me At least, These Characters And, stories Are an important Part of why I Love games
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  23. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    I think this default opinion that story doesn't really matter fails to take into account the impact that the general atmosphere of a game, and the congruity of visual/audio elements, have in guiding player emotion.

    It's not a question of cinematics vs gameplay. It's not a question of whether you should have 20 volumes of background lore. It's a question of what the game environment, events, pacing - and even the way that the world is responding to the player's input - is telling the player at any given time.

    Creating a story that unfolds during gameplay is much harder (and involves much more negotiation with the gameplay) than writing a cutscene. That's why I always start off with a fragment of a story (or at least a single specific emotion) with a game idea, because it tells me how I should design the gameplay and the level so as to make the player feel something specific.
     
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  24. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I have a some-what similar approach, I've approached game-making from the point of a Story-teller, I've collected stories for the last 5 - 8 Years and, now I learn I can Tell them through Unity - - and, yes I think approaching creating a game from the perspective of wanting to tell a story, some epic yarn can give an identity to the whole project but, also that games can be created purely around game-play mechanics, take soccer-games or, tennis-games, there's no story or, even Fighting - games . . . Most of them don't really have a deep or, sincere story but, the game-play is great - - a game can be fun with-out a story but, it's also fun to work on stories and, finding out how Engines can help tell those stories and, Evoke emotions - - I think most succesful AAA games have a decent story element or, what is called a ' single - player ' component - -

    In fact, now that I see it more clearly, games can be great with-out real stories, some of the best games have had no story or, the story part was not important - - for me, I have spent much time writing down stories and, story - elements so, I'm interested in telling them, not so much just making games, I have no direct interest in that - -

    I think the conclusion is, we can co-exist peaceful, story and, non-story games and, that games centered around either quality has validity, in terms of quality and, content - --

    However, because games that are centered around stories, at least in that regard, have that as a big component, an important part, I think it would be good to be able to talk about those things but, maybe not here - - I think this is a forum for game - mechanics and, perhaps not so much stories - -

    That being said, I love seeing early work and, hints at story arcs while making such games, maybe I'm a sucker for a good story but, I Can't help my-self - -

    I Do wish there was a place where those Who were interested in Story-driven games Could discuss and, Help each other with those, on This forum but, I see that has very little To do with the Engine or, Making it work . .. §

    For me, creating the story and, improving it, along with making the game-play is such a Thrill though, I Find it hard not to share this enthusiasm and, Love - -

    I suppose if I have a idea for a Game -story, I should ask here ' How do I make the camera work ', ' How do I set up NPC's AI ', ' How do I Create an Animate Water-fall ', not ' What Should happen to the Princess, after She's rescued ' Or, ' How does the Dragon feel About too Much beer ' - - I'm supposed to create the story on my own and, keep it to my-self, this is where I ask Questions about How to Tell, not what to Tell , or so It seems

    I Do wish we Could talk about stories Also and, Make Them better for Each other, I Would like To help others write Their stories, Perhaps Create Concept art For Important Moments Or, central Characters, on my New Huion 22 Inch Drawing tablet - -§ <3

    tabl2 252 6233.jpg tabl2255.png

    However, if one wants to transfer 2D art into a game far more cheaply, one can draw stuff on paper and, buy a Good 2D Scanner, for like 120 $ $ It Doesn't have to Be expensive, to Get ideas Into the computer - -- I've always Wanted a Drawing tablet ever Since I saw one And, Now I have the chance To buy one, I'm Going to - -
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  25. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    This is so wrong that I can't actually believe it. There is an entire market in visual novels that show this to be fundamentally untrue. Boring and shallow are even treated as synonymous, which is wrong on its face.
     
  26. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    You don't understand what I am trying to say.
    I am a fan of a few visual novels - Phoenix Wright, Steins Gate, Time Hollow. What makes these games really fun for me - is still the Gameplay.

    In Phoenix Wright - solving a mystery is basically a puzzle solving adventure. Steins;Gate with its phone trigger system and where actions can change the course of the game. Time Hollow with the time traveling and time manipulation - various endings.

    You're not going to convince anyone that only story will bring a really good game. It still requires decent gameplay value and the gameplay must make sense in the story/plot the video game is set in. Otherwise there's practically no difference between a video game and a glorified e-book.

    Just because there's an "entire market" of visual novels, doesn't mean you can have a really good story first before designing gameplay - No. I believe these two must go hand in hand (preferrably gameplay first)

    Pretty sure this is what they did with the .hack series - they had a bunch of games come out after .hack//SIGN because SIGN was basically full of people just talking to each other about events while the games were happening some time after and parallel during SIGN's events. If you don't know , .hack//SIGN is the first anime to come out of the .hack series and the first entry in the franchise to set off the story. Then came the manga. And more games.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  27. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Those aren't the only visual novels that exist and many incredibly successful ones have no choices at all (kinetic novels) or operate entirely on a select few choices and just walls of text (so many, in fact most of the NVL subgenre are these) and these just... do not have the gameplay you describe, and they are hugely successful.

    You are discounting an entire swath of games because "gameplay must come first," which is prescriptivist nonsense.
     
  28. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    Chill out, Christopher Hitchens.

    If you're talking about only Visual Novels then let's talk about Visual Novels. If you woke up today just to get on my case and pick random lines of what I'm saying to start an argument - say so.

    I didn't mention those were "the only visual novels". I said those were visual novels I enjoyed.

    Also, OP was not mentioning anything about Visual Novels. He kept listing out action-packed games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and freaking Metroid.

    Are you going to sit here and tell me you'd enjoy a Devil May Cry game that's got no decisions to make - and select some text - to progress the game? They tried that with Radical Dreamers. Didn't go very well.

    You'd be right to say I am not a fan of kinetic novels - I'm not. I do like video games with intriguing gameplay though. And that's the topic of discussion. Not whether we can create a game with purely just story - perhaps for you it would need to be explicitly stated - you cannot make an "action" game or a "puzzle" game, or any game that has gameplay, with purely just story.
     
  29. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    You're acting like those are the only examples. You're acting like people are looking back on Ultima VII and Black Gate because of the gameplay, most of which was actually boring as S***. Not only that, but acting like "purely story" was ever brought up, when what was brought up is "gameplay comes first."

    But gameplay doesn't have to come first at all. Even when gameplay is passable or even good, that doesn't mean it got priority. Game design is fake, pal.
     
  30. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    To me, it seems the story must always come first . . For instance, if people want to create a survival-horror game, it almost necessitates creating some story, that explains why the monsters that have been made are scary . . Take movies, have you ever seen a good movie that didn't have a story . . The point is, some forms of entertainment ( movies ) basically rely on stories to be effective, without stories there'd be nothing for the leading roles to fight or, have a conflict with . .. I have to say, the vast majority of games I've bought and, paid for, as AAA games, have had some story element and, that's actually what I've been looking forward to, secretly . ..

    You can be a gameplay-purist and, I'm not saying that's bad, It's not - - But, there is a sub-category of game-makers that rely on stories to find inspiration and, motivation to make the game, so I think it's important to respect that some game-makers come to Unity from the angle, of wanting to tell stories first . . I really don't see why that's a crime, plenty of the greatest games made with Unity have a story ( take Firewatch, which had very little game-play and, was mostly an eerie story experience ) or, what about ' Until Dawn ', one of the Greatest under-the-radar PS4 Hits, I played it several times, to get the different endings . . That game was almost entirely story and, very little game-play but, it was such a Great game . .

    You can easily make a game that has no story and, is pure game-play . . But, I don't think people here should ' knock ' on the people that like stories and, also want Great game-play, in their games . . To me, my motivation for making great game-play is, I want my gamers to enjoy the story even more and, creating compelling game-play is a way to do that, I want them to go hand-in-hand . .. I don't understand why this is even a discussion . .

    If a sub-group of game-makers think their stories are an important part of their game and, why they are making it, in the first, even if not every-body feels that way, can't we at least recognize that Some people Want to do approach game-making this way and, Leave it alone . .

    Am I forced to think like ' no - story Game makers ' For no reason ? That's why I wanted to talk about Stories, because my reason for using a game - engine is that I want to tell stories and, they help me do that . . Yes, there's a lot of coding and, it's tedious and, difficult but, I don't see why having a story and, wanting to discuss it and, possibly improve it should be wrong or, some-how contrary to what Unity is about ? There are many features in Unity which have been made almost exclusively to tell stories, ie. the entire Cut-scene creater ( Time - line ? ) . . Why do I have to be called a ' bad ' game-maker if I start from story and, try to develop my game from there ? Why am I forced to create game-play first and, stories later because, that feels unnatural to me ? I respect that others don't like stories and, hate them . . But, do I have to feel the same way, just because people don't like books or, movies or, things with stories in them . . Can Unity be used to tell stories ? Am I allowed to do that ? I have to admit, there's a lot of haters on the internet, that have an opinion just to flaunt it, show it off . . In the end, what they say is meaningless, they just say stuff to oppose things and, be in the way . . I don't think there are any-body like that here, but my experience is there is always one or, two . . But, it's a free world, I don't deny that you can make a fun, good game without any story or, that a story is NEEDED, as such . . What I do disagree on is, that a game engine that is OFTEN used to tell stories, some-how pushes people with stories and, that want to use their Great engine away because, it's not coding or, about Engine-code functions and, variables . . Am I supposed to think that, coming here and wanting to tell an epic story, though Unity is somehow wrong or, not really what the Engine is for ? Don't the latest Unity trailers ( Heretic; ADAM, So on ) prove, that Unity can be made to tell Visual master-pieces and, Epics . . I mean, shouldn't all the game-play purists be saying, that ' Heretic ' trailer was AWFUL, it had a character and, it almost told a story . . Omg, what a terrible, un-inspired Trailer . .

    Also, I've never forced any-one to tell a story, if they had none but, wanted to make a game, any-way . . I Really don't mind but, I would just like to be able to talk about Why I am making games, from my perspective . . Is having stories to tell somehow bad or, wrong . . Is this the wrong Engine to try and tell stories because, it presents itself as a Great engine, for Any game-maker or, Story-maker . .

    I don't hate you because you don't tell stories, please don't hate me if I want to tell stories, in return . .

    To me, the stories are so much part of the fun, I couldn't Personally imagine making a game, without one . . I also think AAA games without a story are relatively rare, at least when I watch trailers on IGN or, Gamespot,com . . If the majority of famous games actually have a story, why am I being ranted on, for wanting to tell a few stories myself . . Even Call of Duty has a story, a ' Single-player campaign ' . . I have played very few games, that I bought, paid for, that didn't have any story . . They exists, but most are AA or, A games, most AAA games have stories and, yes there are exceptions but, they are drowned out in the sea, of games with good stories . .

    Final Fantasy - series : Story - line included
    Dmc ( Devil May Cry ) - series : Story - line included

    Most action-games or, RPG's have a story . . Often, the trailers for games show the characters, try to set up the story and, get players excited for it . . And, I'm not against game-play, why would I be . . If I hate game-play I wouldn't be making games, I'd be writing books or, making movies . . If I was inherently against game-play, what would I be doing here, in the first . . I think some people are misunderstanding me . . I think wanting to tell a story is a good way to start a game, not the only one but, an important one, for some . . Why does that receive so much hate and, opposition . . Is it because some people here don't know how to tell stories ? If so, why not start talking about and, practicing, helping each other out, so every-body gets a nice story or, we help improve them, along with making Great game-play . .

    I'm surprised to find so much hatred towards stories here, I suppose not many people here watch movies or, read books . . I can accept that, it's up to you but, please don't tell me how to make games or, that yours is the only way, I haven't told that back, to you . .. Just that stories are important to me, they're more than half the fun of making games and, I would like to be able to talk about them, because they matter to me . .

    Take Resident Evil series, imagine those with-out a story - - let's take another example, let's just take all games with a story and, throw them away, they're bad games because, they have stories . . Let's imagine taking all games with stories and, just throwing them away, All of them . . How many would be left ? I'm not trying to convert you or, force you to tell stories, I only wanted to be able to talk about them and, what I find fun about making games . . I will let the people who dislike stories create a thread called ' I hate Final Fantasy because it has a story ' or, ' Ban Story-tellers from Unity !! ', then they can talk all they want there and, agree with each other, I don't mind, in fact I Encourage it, For sure - -

    But, some-how being ' Wrong ' for wanting to tell a story first and, make game-play second, to fit that story, I don't see how that's wrong . ..$$
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  31. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    For me, stories help me create gameplay because, what I want to tell or, express must be supported and, enhanced by the game-play - - I'm telling a story about a monk, who goes to Hell, in order to warn the world about how Bad it is . . I want to have demons, Stealth game-play and, Other things . . The more clear I become on the story, the more easy it becomes for me to see what kind of game-play I need, to tell that story, the More clear the story becomes, I can basically see what kind of game-play I need, to Express that story . .. So, I don't understand why it's such a problem to want, to tell a story first and, then create a game around, making sure the game-play is strong and, furthers the plot and, intentions of the writing, the Core story - -$

    Because, to me, stories are a major reason for making a game, I think it should be allowed to talk about stories and, having fun creating them, in a group and, possibly improving each other's stories so, there's even greater motivation to make games and, Make them Great - -§ §

    And, if you don't want any story, at all, that's fine too
     
  32. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    You have asked, you have received range of opinions.

    Just on side note, not sure if you aware @jbb1979, but you start repeating your responses.
    Simply not every game need story. Simple as that.
    While some games are mainly driven by stories, other can leave without.
     
    jbb1979 likes this.
  33. GazingUp

    GazingUp

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    You know what I find funny in your posts? You sound exactly like me - except you're just saying the opposite of what I was saying.

    You talk about how "I'm acting like those are the only examples" when I particularly stated why (because I played them might be a hint) and then proceed to say the following ...

    If there was the definition of Irony - you'd probably be the display picture for that too.

    If you didn't have the patience to read through my posts and just wanted to find someone to make your point, I have said already that I agree story is important. But what I do not agree is to neglect gameplay/code - which the OP kept on spamming how story took precedence over coding/gameplay and just kept on talking about sharing stories.

    This whole thread was OP's question (not a statement) - I stated my opinion. You can state yours too without enforcing your close mindedness on mine.

    You don't care about gameplay - the rest of the world does. It's what makes this world great - people are allowed to have opinions.
     
  34. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I'm just trying to explain that for me, process of game making starts with stories and, then I come up with strong game-play to support that . . I have many ideas and, I want to share them but, I wasn't expect to find almost an anti-story atmosphere here . . For me, the whole motive for even using a Game engine comes from wanting to express stories and, sentiments . . And, yes I do recognize you can have a Strong game - play basis and, have no story at all, no enemies, no levels - - you can have a fun game with, no real motivation or, deep core . . That's fine and, I don't have a problem with that, it's fine - -

    What I don't understand is why people that make games without stories for some reason need, to rag of game-makers that use stories or, like them ?

    Is it really necessary to oppose something other people do, just because they do it differently from you ? I have never wanted to force any-one to embrace a story or, what-ever, against their will - - my Point is simply this, if you like stories and, consider them a part of your game, let's talk about it and, have more fun making games by, Also imagining and, Setting up The stories, That we anticipate - - and, even if it doesn't work out, as we hoped -- well, at least we had more fun, along the way, What's the Harm in that - -

    I'm just saying, we could be having a better time if, we also took time to make and, enhance the stories we intend to tell and, we Could have a Good time Making things up, as We go, inspire each other and, Have fun - -

    Aren't Games supposed to be about Having fun And, Good times - - it's Like it's sort of forbidden or, un-welcome here, in a Forum about Games ? I Admit you can make Games with no story and, I respect that, I Don't want to Change that - - But, if some Game makers here also Tell stories, I Think we should be able to talk about it because, for most of us ' Story - losers ', It's actually a big part of Why we even Get into the coding And, Programming - - So, since it will Help more people Embrace unity, why Not Let it pass - - that's Where I'm lost - -

    For me, Having a story helps me Pin down what Game-play I want and, Exactly what Features And, Elements it must, to Better tell the Story, Make the Player experience The drama I have planned And, Written down, Over the years - -

    That's why I wanted to have like a ' Story and Character Development ' sub - forum, where we can explore These things and, Get better At it, to-gether - -

    but, if that is Not the right place, this is strictly for Coding And, specific engine problems And, Issues, I understand - - I Thought this was a Forum for all Aspects of game making, Not just The boring Every-day Details And, hum-drum - --

    Question : Am I allowed to use Unity to tell stories ?
    Question : Am I allowed to share my stories and, tell them to others ?
    Question : Why is it forbidden to talk about it here, since that's more or less the entire reason people use Unity, in the first, barring Ping-pong games or, simple Arcade stuff- --
    source.gif

    Look a game, that has no story - - also, Tetris is a game, with no story, those are great games but, can I get one with a story, soon, because they're boring and, I prefer more impressive and, well-made games - -

    Each, to their own, Right ?! . . .
     
  35. jbb1979

    jbb1979

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    I suppose I should start looking for miniscule problems in other people's posts and, blow them out of proportion, because I don't have a life or, what-ever - -

    I'm just saying, stories are fun and, listening to them and, working on them is FUN - - games are supposed to be fun so, why is fun looked down here, on this forum - -§§

    If you don't like stories or, don't want them, I don't care - -

    But, if there are any people here who love stories or, want to tell them, I'd Love to hear them And, discuss them - - because, that's What makes Game making More fun, to me And, That Keeps Things going along, Makes Progress - - Leading to finished games And, Stuff - -
     
  36. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    This going nowhere other than circles. Closed.
     
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