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Great interview with David Helgason - UE4 has had no impact on Unity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by sicga123, May 10, 2014.

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  1. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Open for business - remember - it's not an excuse to promote hearsay or flame. I don't want to see the same arguments about pricing - done to death elsewhere.
     
  2. tswalk

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    One other point that people are over looking is the taxation... if I purchase unity, I can deduct the entire amount as a capital investment.. whereas the royalties only reduce the taxation pre-tax on the profits generated. there is a difference.
     
  3. tswalk

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    A lot of people think this way, but in reality that 250K could make the difference to a studio remaining in operation for another quarter or two... or perhaps gaining confidence in investors that they're profitable. Even though the scale is grander, the margins are often times pretty damn thin.

    [edit]
    I wanted to add that this "loss" of profits through royalties can have an impact on tangible valuation... whereas it may have an even greater impact on non-tangible (hence the remark related to investor confidence)....
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  4. lazygunn

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    It just occurred to me that the average artist would cost many times more the price of unity just in the licensing of their entirely graphics related tools. This is an absurd argument
     
  5. Kend

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    this thread was closed and now reopen?
     
  6. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Stay on topic.
     
  7. Jingle-Fett

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    This is precisely my problem with what a lot of the people are complaining about with the "expensive" price of Unity. 3ds Max and Maya are roughly $3700 each. Or you can rent for $1800 a year, or $195 a month http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-3ds-max/buy
    Or maybe you prefer Modo or Lightwave? They're cheaper but still about $1500 each.
    Then you have other tools like Zbrush ($800) /Mudbox, Mari ($2000), photoshop, plugins like FumeFX ($800) etc. all of which you kind of need if you're going to be producing a game with advanced graphics (and maybe still even if you're not). When taking all that into account, Unity is neither too expensive nor too cheap...
     
  8. Aabel

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    Whether something is expensive or not has to do with how much value you get for the cost. A higher cost can definitely be worth paying if the value is there. I'd much rather pay the almost $800 for Zbrush than the $10 a month for Mudbox.
     
  9. sandboxgod

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    Yeah but tools like 3d studio max used to be mainly used for high end movie production from what I recall. Unity is only used for making games and other types of applications. They are kind of two totally different types of software

    ZBrush is probably closer to Unity since it's only focused at 3d model creation mainly. But it is only a one time fee of $800. I have never heard of Pixelogic charging for upgrades.

    [edit] Allow me to rephrase, I am trying to say 3d studio max / Maya can be used for a -LOT- of different applications such as 3d modeling, animation, mocap, render farms for movies, etc. Thus, their dramatically increased cost. But Unity only cranks out applications. I felt ZBrush is a much better comparison because it is also quite specialized. But I might be totally off base. Highly opionated there
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  10. Deleted User

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    It wouldn't matter to me at all, Hippo is right this whole price thing is done to death. My staff far outweigh the cost of any engine, to take advantage of UE4 you need the cash and tools like others have said. Even if you're a one man band, when you earn a million you'll be jumping for the sky not focusing on that 5% any more.

    As I said in a previous post, you can get custom licensing anyway. This isn't restricted to Unreal or any engine for that matter, point being if you're aiming for figures like 5 Million and 250K is the difference between close of business and success. You need to fire your accountant and cut down your development costs.

    Just use whatever makes your project successful, worry about the fiscal portion of it when you have something that merits a fiscal return. Percentages are rich people problems..

    What I want out of UT5 is a stable base platform to work from. No restrictions to the project, maybe a few more tools so we don't have to rely on the asset store to fill gaps or save us time making addon upon addon. Then the rest is up to us, tools should not determine the success of a developers future and shouldn't impose limitations.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2014
  11. Eric5h5

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    Volume discounts are extremely common and I can't see any logic calling it "unfair". I'm sure if you want to order 100 seats of Unity Pro they would be happy to talk to you about a discount regardless of whether you're a big company or not.

    --Eric
     
  12. ShilohGames

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    I realize the pricing for Unity is fine for professional game designers. However, the pay wall is too steep for hobbyists. There are plenty of us hobbyists who would like to have the Pro features but cannot justify the Pro price. Unity could make millions of extra dollars per year by selling a hobbyist subscription (same features as Unity Pro; same price and terms as UE4). Based on the interview, I guessing Unity does not care or simply does not understand the hobbyists.
     
  13. hippocoder

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    Repeating your point across multiple posts will not make people listen to it more.
     
  14. Eric5h5

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    Hence Unity, which is 100% free, with no costs of any kind and no limitations on usage (go ahead and use it to sell games, plenty of people do). The "Pro" in Unity Pro does mean "professional".

    Or possibly your estimate of "making millions of extra dollars per year" isn't actually based on facts.

    --Eric
     
  15. Aabel

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    The only thing that will get UT's attention is if hobbyists like you leave. Go use UE4, for Hobbyists who are serious about game development it's the obvious option now. $20 a month for all that tech and source? How can you not go for it as a hobbyist?
     
  16. lazygunn

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    Like i said before, just throw Unity Free a bone and give them some decent prettiness power
     
  17. Gigiwoo

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    ^ This. And civility above all.
    Gigi
     
  18. StarManta

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    This attitude worries me. Many people have been waiting on some response from Unity on this issue, and that's the reason they haven't gone over - the assumption that Unity would respond. If David really believes that UE4's new pricing will have no impact on Unity, UT is going to be blindsided when it does.

    Looking at one month of numbers and concluding that nothing is going to change is incredibly short sighted.
     
  19. jonas-echterhoff

    jonas-echterhoff

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    Nobody is making that assumption - we don't know what the future is bringing. David was merely stating that from the numbers we can currently see (we are tracking sales, forum posts, downloads, editor analytics and other metrics), we can currently not make out any trends of users moving away from Unity. That is the truth, but, of course, that does not mean it will stay like this indefinitely, or that Epic does not or will not influence at all, or ever.
     
  20. BrainMelter

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    It's typical CEO framing. Of course people left for Unreal, at least some of them did anyway. As for the numbers being stable, that could still be true, as they've probably gotten new users from other places. Then there's the notion that stable isn't necessarily good. If they weren't losing users to Unreal, they could have gotten growth instead.
     
  21. TheRaider

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    I agree this is shortsighted, however it is important to remember unity still has a free version which will be a lot more appealing than $20 a month to a lot of people.

    I do think there will be an eventual decay in userbase as the people start new projects and learning materials are available. Also as educational institutions start offering unreal as well as unity. Where I work will keep teaching unity because the free version is great for kids to take home. However the quality of unreal and it's offer has made us make an offer to see what our consumers want the most. I am really looking forward to playing with unreal but I will still unity for my work projects for now!
     
  22. zenGarden

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    Indeed, and lot of people will prefer to stay with C# or Javascript than having to deal with C++ and compiler.
     
  23. Emsw0rth

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    If Unity offered a $19 subscription model that simply contained a dark themed UI and LOD's - in addition to the existing features found in the "Free" version - I would never switch to Unreal Engine 4.

    There are so many other positive reasons for using Unity over the competition (simple asset pipeline, PlayMaker, built in tree manufacturing, great terrain tools, simple and straightforward UI, runs on low powered hardware, can use efficiently on my MacBook Air 11.6", no vegetation shader problems, PlayMaker, fantastic prefabs like 1st and 3rd person setups, incredibly direct import pipeline, PlayMaker, incredible assets available cheaply in Asset Store, it really does "just work", intuitive game object/component pipeline, it's Danish, Playmaker, animated characters and rigs import directly from the cheapest, most powerful 3D authoring environment, quick and realistic construction of natural, outdoor environments - all made with internal tools, PlayMaker, widely distributed success among a variety of game developers, so many profitable development platforms . . . . others should go on and on.)

    So, what about that, Mr. David Helgason - what can you possibly lose by giving us humble and impoverished people a dark themed UI (so we don't go prematurely blind) and LOD's - which every expansive outdoor environment needs? Give a little.


    Greg Smith
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  24. ShilohGames

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    I signed up for the UE4 subscription the moment it was offered, and I spend a little time each weekend learning how to use it. I am in the process of finishing up a couple of small projects with Unity and then my next project after that is going to be in UE4. As a hobbyist, there is simply no way to justify paying $1500 (plus $1500 per platform) for Unity Pro. I love using Unity and I am more familiar with Unity, but the UE4 deal is too good to pass up for a hobbyist.
     
  25. ShilohGames

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    Maybe Unity should add a Hobbyist Subscription option. Unity Hobbyist Subscription could have the features of Unity Pro and the pricing and terms of UE4. Offering a Hobbyist Subscription now could be a great way to make money and protect the the Unity ecosystem from UE4.
     
  26. tswalk

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    we obviously see things differently, and that's ok... i'm not saying one way is right or wrong. I just believe that thinking about the fiscal potential and return ahead of time provides a holistic perspective and better planning as a result.... some kind of plan is better than no plan at all.
     
  27. daisySa

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    Have you tried UE4? It wasn’t made in Denmark but it does pretty well everything else you mentioned much, much better than Unity 4.

    And there’s a lot of FUD around Mac performance - people are leaving UE4’s quality settings at the default “Epic” setting, rather than changing them to “Auto”. I’m running UE4’s third-person shooter template on my Macbook with no issues at all.

    That said, I’m really looking forward to Unity 5. My only two real issues with Unity are the lack of a 64-bit editor and the piece of junk known as Beast (neither of which are issues if you’re only working on a small project). Since both of these are fixed in version 5, I’m staying with Unity for the time being.

    Next project? The jury is out. If UE4’s Marketplace becomes a thriving asset store and the community succeeds in building a C# implementation, I’ll probably move to UE4. At the moment, it appears extremely likely that both of these will occur within the next 12 months.

    However, if Unity gets version 5 right - and core features like the editor and lightmapping are stabilised and deliver on their promise - there won’t be such compelling reasons to move away.

    There are probably a lot of developers around like me - we’re all in a “wait and see” phase right now. That’s why David isn’t seeing any change in the numbers…yet.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  28. hippocoder

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    Isn't this a bit shocking? Doesn't anyone actually feel that the Free version isn't giving already? I mean how entitled do people want to be? Pretty surprised to be honest.

    It costs nothing to download Unity free and make a mobile game with shadows, awesome playability, pretty much anything you could want. It's likely Unity will add even more to the free version as time goes by... and thousands will appreciate this. But saying "Give a little" is a bit much considering :)
     
  29. Mistale

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    I agree with ShilohGames for the most part, and I didn't think that Unitys first official response to this whole situation would be along the lines of what David said.

    I love Unity, and I use it both professionally and as an entusiast.
    BUT, there's absolutely no question in my mind that the size of Unitys userbase will be affected by UE4.
    If that means that it will remain stable instead of growing, or if the userbase will begin to shrink I don't know. But it WILL have a measurable effect.

    In my case I've completely stopped buying assets for the time being, since I haven't decided yet what to do when Unity 5 comes out.
    And this comes from a person that has previously bought just about every GUI framework and other expensive systems just for the fun of learning.
    I can't imagine that I'm the only one who's currently waiting for something to tip the scale in favor of one engine or the other.

    I would love to just forget about UE4 and to concentrate on upgrading my Unity licenses to Unity 5.
    BUT, as both I and a lot of other users have tried to tell Unity, the current licensing options are NOT indie friendly, and that has nothing to do with UE4. The only thing UE4 has brought to the table is healthy competition which means that perhaps Unity will now listen more carefully to what it's userbase is telling them... Or not, as it seems.

    For me personally (I've mentioned this in other threads years ago), there's no valid reason why mobile developers have to pay twice as much as Mac/Windows developers just to be able to export with Pro-functions from their already paid for Unity Pro.
    I DON'T care about exporting to Mac/PC. I DON'T care about webplayer. I just wan't to create mobile games, and it annoys me to no end that Unity still does not listen to what their users are trying to tell them.

    I've gotten official replies along the lines of "we're looking into our pricing, something may change in the future" but nothing ever happens.
    Add to this Davids response, and you can draw the conclusion that I'm not a happy camper... :p

    All I would want is a more reasonably pricing for mobile platforms, or the chance to choose a mobile platform instead of the PC/Mac export that's included in Unity Pro. And don't tell me that it's not technically possible to split that functionality (oh yes, I've gotten that response too).

    For me, if nothing changes, I will not upgrade my Pro licenses to Unity 5, and that also means that I won't be buying assets that has Pro as a pre-requisite.
    This is not a threat at all, I know I hardly matter to Unity, that is blatantly obvious. It's just fact, and I'm just sad that Unity choose to earn less by having users leave or not upgrade in the long run instead of making more money by attracting and keeping their users through listening to their opinions.
     
  30. hippocoder

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    I keep waiting for Innocent to reduce the price of their noodle pots, you know those really tasty healthy ones, since there's cheaper competition all round but they never seem to. I end up buying them because ultimately I like the taste.
     
  31. Dabeh

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    Ever tried Indomie? They're really cheap and the best noodles I've ever had. I'm surprised people keep buying the other noodles that taste like cardboard. Seriously, who buys continental?
    (seriously, you should try Indomie if they have them in Britian).

    On topic though: I love Unity, I think Free offers a good enough value..because it's free. I don't get all this entitled stuff people keep spouting. Free has a lot of options, honestly..I released a game with it(with a friend) that made me enough to buy Pro with addons and have a bunch of money leftover. If you can't make money without Pro, you're in the wrong business. Stop blaming Unity Free for your shortcomings. Unity pro on the other hand, you're free to complain about the lack of bugs and needed features.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  32. hippocoder

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  33. Dabeh

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    Never seen Innocent, I've seen other noodles like that but I never really liked their flavour.


    On topic: I don't necessarily believe that UE4 hasn't had a huge impact on Unity, though it's too soon to make statements like that. UE4 doesn't have a graphical edge over Unity except for out of box(at this time ;))(Seriously, how many people have actually played around with tweaked out Unity vs Max UE4?) , their toolset on the other hand is where it is at.

    If Unity match U5 in their toolset then this 1.5K licensing per addon is going to work out in their favour since they can offer what Unreal can't big time(oh what's that, you don't have Enlighten in UE4? I guess it's because your $19.99/m can't pay for it).

    I'm not worried about Unitys immediate future, as long as they patch up the leaky holes in the ship(Terrain, Source control, Nested prefabs, WWW improvements, Networking, Unity Remote, Mono, Streaming, etc) which should happen now that UE4 are putting pressure on them.

    All said though, even with all their flaws...I still choose to Unity it over UE4. It's faster for me since I'm usually in small teams, I have no clue how it would play out with a large team but I already have issues with a small team(I do write some pretty wicked editor tools though that work around them though).
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  34. Mistale

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    This is not about Unity Free. It's great that you found it to be sufficient for you.
    For me it's not because of various reasons that I won't list here (I don't need each reason shot down and ridiculed), and that's why I bought Unity Pro. I wouldn't have spent that much money for no reason.
    So please don't throw the "Free is enough for everyone" card in there.

    The thing I can't wrap my head around is the fact that Unity could earn MORE by lowering the cost of converting from Free to Pro.
    I know there's probably no statistics about conversion rates, but there's plenty of users out there that either uses Free and would consider going Pro if the licensing cost was lower than now, or people like me that already have Pro and haven't decided yet about if they will upgrade their licenses, go Free, or to another engine in the future.

    I WANT to give money to Unity, but I want the license costs to be reasonable compared to other options.
    If they rather have no money from me and others like me than adjusting licensing costs and get higher volumes, so be it.
     
  35. Grafos

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    The secret is out...
     
  36. Dabeh

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    So you only bought Pro because they didn't give you what you wanted for free.

    I didn't say that. I said it has a good enough value; because it's free. If it isn't good enough for someone, no one is forcing them to use Unity.

    There's a difference between suggestion and entitlement.


    I agree, lots more people would buy Unity, although I'm not sure if that equates to higher profits. We have no clue yet if Game Developers are a mass market, which is what UE4 is targeting and you're suggesting they compete with their price.
    I on the other hand, want Unity to compete with their engine and not their price(to a point..).

    :D
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  37. Pix10

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    It took me a long time to get over Innocents, stop waving those links about.

    Indomie you can buy in bulk if you don't mind ordering from Amazon.
     
  38. TylerPerry

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    Lol, this thread, from game engines to noodles.
     
  39. jcarpay

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    It should be about customers first and metrics second. There's obviously a lot of complaints regarding the current price offering of Pro. Keeping customers pissed off for too long and they will look for alternatives and the metrics will show that eventually. Not yourselves (metrics = $), but keeping customers satisfied should be UT's first priority.
     
  40. giyomu

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  41. Mistale

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    Just wanted to clear this up; I'm not expecting Pro features to be free, and I don't expect Unity to compete with UE's price.
    I'm just saying adjustments need to be made to the current pricing if they want to keep a thriving userbase in light of recent development.
    Exactly what they would change and how much I'll leave for Unity to decide, but it's pretty clear that a lot of users are not happy with the current licensing offerings, and this discontent has been smouldering for the past few years.
     
  42. Ness

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    I dont really see a reason why Unity couldn`t introduce 19$/5% pricing and at the same time leave an option to buy it for 1500$. Especially when David Helgason says that UE4 is more expensive.

    Personally I dont think that Unity5 price is above what it has to offer, 1500$ can be justified. But i think that there is a lot of users that earn below 10k annually and just cannot afford it.

    Check out quixel or allegorithmic pricing, they are offering software for half the price or less for indies.
    http://www.allegorithmic.com/buy
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  43. Dabeh

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    This I can agree with.

    Well, are you suggesting for every developer purchasing Pro right now they will get roughly 78 subscriptions(and this is being generous, not including addons)? I assure you, a lot of Pro subscriptions will switch over(a lot of them are probably hobbyists that won't make 1.5k(once again, being very generous considering a lot of the games will be on a mobile platform)). Unreal don't care too much about the 5%, it's only to stop big studios from subbing and never having to pay more than $20/m.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  44. Aurore

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    Just a backtrack for a second to highlight what we mean by Enterprise, yes this does consist of some level of volume discount but can also include support, training, consultancy and other things, usually on a case by case depending on the customers specific needs.
     
  45. Ness

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    I`ve read that like 4 times and I dont understand a thing from that, please rephrase ;) Just saying bro ;)
     
  46. Dabeh

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    I'm recovering from a sickness right now, so I'm kinda rambling aha. I've just reread it and realized it doesn't matter what I said anyway because I didn't take into account that money from subscriptions are recurring.
     
  47. jcarpay

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    +1
     
  48. Deleted User

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    Dabeh I don't think you quite understand what would be involved in getting Unity 4 up to the same standard as Unreal 4, if you have a hell of a lot of time on your hands and a decent sized team you can make any renderer look better than Unreal 4 (Just look at Arkham Knight it's UE3 with a shiny new cutting edge lighting system). Whilst UE4 generally looks great, it's still lacking in the lighting department in areas, some LPV wouldn't go a miss (It's not finished yet :p). When we talk Unity 5, that's a different ball game Enlighten will contribute massively to the quality of a game as well as PBR. UE4 is new tech / UT5 is new tech so compare based on that.

    Still I agree on the tool side of things, out of the box UE4 comes with all the gadgets you need to cover nearly any game of any scope. Plus cascade and post looks brilliant.

    From that interview I still get a very mobile centric vibe from it. That's where a roadmap or at least some info as to there plans would be nice so we can adjust or switch accordingly.
     
  49. hippocoder

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    They are beginning to roadmap again - sorta. Check out the networking blog post with disclaimers.

    Just be gentle, encourage Unity and mention that you do know its subject to change :)
     
  50. Dabeh

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    I have a rough idea, I've played around with a tweaked out Unity 4 with all the pretty addons. They don't really work together well and I could never imagine doing more than what I did with them. I use add ons as a last resort; I absolutely despise having to rely on them(so I'm kind of unsure why I even bought up the tweaked bit, kind of hypocritical IMO).

    Don't get me wrong, I think UE4 looks great. I just think that Unreal 4 doesn't look that amazing in relation to Unity. It does look amazing, but not as amazing as I keep hearing. I had it worded something along those lines but I changed it for whatever reason. The toolset, though, is a different matter and will hopefully improve dramatically with this new pressure that Helgason is acting like is non-existent.


    I noticed that, really appreciated it. Networking is a big passion of mine too so it's a double bonus for me.
     
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