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General feedback & other software.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aurore, Aug 14, 2015.

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  1. ZJP

    ZJP

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    This. Nothing else.
    In fact, yes. One more thing : Unity can run very welll on Low End or Middle configuration. No need an 'AllienWare Super Boosted Machine' to work on something in the train or vacation or etc etc ...

    That said, my only (?!) negative point about Unity is Mecanim. Guys, i'm really miss an API like Legacy.
     
  2. darkhog

    darkhog

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    My feedback is the following:

    - Add visual shader editor (like one in UE4), it should have IMO even higher priority over visual scripting because writing scripts is considerably easier than making shaders
    - Add 3D water buoyancy (not necessarily actual water sim)
    - Better, possibly voxel-based terrain that can be set to be immutable (and so be converted to a static mesh when building/running the game)
    - Make game for me button (not really)
    - Some level-building tool like ProBuilder, builtin
     
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  3. Teo

    Teo

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    Not really a necessity, standard shader cover lots usual stuff. For a few times when you need to write some shaders, that kind of editor does not make sense.
     
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  4. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    A proper shader editor is rapidly becoming an expected feature for a game engine. Unreal 4 has one and it appears that Stingray may have one as well (their help files describe a tool called ShaderFX and screenshots show it to be node-based).
     
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  5. antislash

    antislash

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    why not a visual shader editor, .... if it allows dirty hacks and transparent shadowing :D
    curious to see how such a tool would allow to create volumetric shaders tough...
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  6. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Me too. So, Unity Technologies do not become an...Epic Fail. :p:D
     
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  7. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    It covers most if not all "realistic" styled rendering scenarios. I don't think it's much use for the abstract, special effect or or highly stylised stuff, though. That's where a shader editor is useful. It'd be rad if an artist could get some or all of the effect they wanted and pass it to a graphics coder for finishing and/or optimisation, rather than tying up both of their time from the start.

    Having said that, there's options on the Asset Store for that ranging from editors to loads of pre-made shaders and effects, so it's not an especially big deal.
     
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  8. Ryiah

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    Assuming you're allowed to use the Asset Store for your project (I believe @zombiegorilla stated his company doesn't allow it) and you're willing to put up without the source in some cases (Shader Forge is closed source).
     
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  9. landon912

    landon912

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  10. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    I was replying to some peoples posts but they just ended up piling on and picking apart everything I was saying. :)

    Which posts exactly are you referring to that you want an official response for?
     
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  11. Deleted User

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    Edit: condensed version.!

    I think it was just a small misunderstanding about tools and target markets, each require different tools. Also in the end, it doesn't really matter what AAA are doing and I should of justified the list instead of just spouting it, so apologies for that.

    Although it's great to have something to aspire to, I look at Batman Arkham games and learn. Rip apart demo's like shooter demo and arch viz examples, then try to merge ideas. I've ripped apart the engine (mostly broke it) but learned a lot about how to fix it and how project files can be manually configured.. I do believe UE is much harder to use, but it's not necessarily a deterrent.

    I love Unity for messing about with, I've learned a lot and I did enjoy it. But it strikes fear whenever I think of releasing a commercial project, how much time will it take me to add a slurry of basic tools (a very long list) that's already in UE? I see gamers ripping apart AAA graphics, which makes me VERY edgy so how long do I need to spend to get Unity up to UE's level? I've had variable success with the asset store, so I tend to avoid it..

    I don't mind paying for support, but it could still take quite a while for a fix or an important feature adding (or access to add said feature). I spent 10 hours fixing the packaging system in UE, sure it was a waste of time but the point is I could. It feels like an accident waiting to happen, never knowing when that bus will hit you.

    The question is, why not make something simpler? Well I have no reservations with UE so I don't have to for one and secondly I'd rather fail than do something I'm not passionate about. (Even though I do often question the logic).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2015
  12. superpig

    superpig

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    Which parts of the legacy API do you want? Mecanim already has Animator.Play and Animator.CrossFade.

    Is it the ability to add animations to the list of available clips at runtime? If so, I recommend looking into the 'Playables API' in 5.2, once it comes out.
     
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  13. Teo

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    You will never finish a game with any engine. Peoples made games with faaar worst tools and engines. Unity is pure awesome now on market, and stellar compared with old tools (eg. Quark), that you probable never heard of.

    My advice, stop crying, make games, or give up.
     
  14. Deleted User

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    I'm not sure what your problems is? Every engine has pro's and con's I'm perfectly fine with UE. I'm making games, they want feedback, they got it.

    Pure awesome, pleasssee!.. Well it's definitely better than Torque3D or XNA. End of the day, a LOT of Unity members have requested improvements, improving is never a bad thing EVER!.

    But yeah, if they didn't "get it" by the original 10,000 threads.. I'm sure it's not worth talking about.

    You're correct though, it really doesn't matter to me anymore. Best of luck with your games everyone.!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2015
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  15. antislash

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    @ShadowK , i appreciate everyone's opinion, and yours is as important as other's so, don't leave.
     
  16. GameDevGuy

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    I can empathize. I do not miss the days where every little thing I said would get ripped apart, even if I was trying to deliver good news or address what I was asked to address. I guess it comes with the territory, but kudos for jumping back into the thread to reply.

    It would be nice to hear thoughts on my comments on documentation, but I understand if this thread will be used purely for gathering info without response. It's already kind of touchy in here =).
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  17. Ryiah

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    If I'm not mistaken he means the posts giving actual itemized feedback.
     
  18. Deleted User

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    I appreciate it, but I believe everything that needed to be said has been many times at this point and I'm Einstein's definition of insanity.

    Of course if Unity respond I will listen / discuss, but we can't wait or hope for things.. Carpe Diem, go with what works even if it appears painful to do so. I did and don't regret it for a moment...

    Again, appreciate you guys discussing it with me.
     
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  19. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    Im not really sure what sort of 'official' response you are looking for. Some of your questions are more speculative, rhetorical or are just unanswerable in a simple way (Except by referencing the 'how long is a piece of string' quote). For example:
    This really depends on what sort of graphics you want to achieve, and if you have the resources to achieve them. Do you have a team of 60+ industry veterans and millions of funding? If not, then you are probably aren't going to be able to make something on the level of visuals, scale and production of Skyrim, Call of Duty or the Batman series. This may seem like a harsh thing to say, but unfortunately it is true. :)

    Now, if you want to achieve beautiful visuals with Unity, that is indeed possible, but it ultimately depends on what type of visuals you want (And because you seem weirdly adamant to not talk about Mobile at all, ill play your game and only list Desktop and Console games). If you are interested in 2D graphics, games such as Lovers in a Dangerous Space Time:

    Ori and the Blind Forest

    and Cuphead

    are all games with a high quality visuals and polish and powered by Unity, created by relatively small teams.

    In terms of 3D graphics, games such as Ghost of a Tale (This is footage of the Unity 4 version of the game):

    The Unity 5 version looks ten times better, but no video yet:
    http://www.ghostofatale.com/
    P.A.M.E.L.A.

    Distance:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mDVxz732rk

    Are just 3 games that look incredible, show off Unity in different lighting setups and are made by small teams (I think Ghost of a Tale only has 1 full-time person working on it).

    I guess the point im trying to make is that you can achieve high-quality content but no engine is going to instantly make your game look amazing, or make your entire game for you. But what we aim to do at Unity is allow you to have the extensibility, accessibility and ease to create whatever type and look of game (or non-game) that you like. Admittedly, rendering a 1 million poly static rock, so it looks like it was a photo, is probably going to be much more difficult than using an engine that is made for that sort of thing. However, when would anyone ever use a 1 million poly rock in an actually released game? :p

    For starters, there are thousands and thousands of companies that use Unity for commercial projects; for example Rovio, Blizzard, EA, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Obsidian, Ubisoft, Toca Boca and more all use Unity and all release games with it.

    In terms of adding a slurry of basic tools to Unity, you have a few things to think about:
    - Do you need the tool? I have never used Visual Scripting, but have still made games by learning to code.
    - Can you make the tool? You have stated they are 'basic' so I assume you could make them? Most game studios extend Unity themselves to make custom features for their own specific projects.
    - Is the tool available to import in? We have the Asset Store for that!
    - Is Unity making the tool? Of course, you can check our Roadmap! And features take a long time to make as we need to see if they are wanted, design them, work out how they will fit into the editor, how they will fit in with other features, create them, test them, adapt any changes, make sure they work on all of the platforms we support, alpha test them, beta test them, QA them, release them, iterate on them for many years to come. Game engine features don't just appear over night. ;)

    Now that I think about it, ive actually said something like this before about 10 times on this forum to ShadowK, Dark Hogg, or any number of other people. So this post will be the last time I say it. :)

    Sorry, I don't understand the question.

    Now I know that people are probably going to jump on this post, pick apart the games I stated and criticise things ive said, and ive now probably derailed the thread again; but members of this forum, in this thread, did just ask for an 'official' response. Albeit, one that is a bit long, as the question isn't as clear cut for an answer of "yes" or "no".


    Right, back to the general feedback topic!
     
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  20. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    If he has itemised feedback, he can submit it via bug reports and/or through our feedback system. ;)

    http://feedback.unity3d.com/
     
  21. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Oh. Gotcha... :cool:
     
  22. Ryiah

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    Or you know put it in the thread that is supposed to be about feedback?
     
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  23. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    You seem adamant on always arguing with Unity staff. ;)

    Well its posted and is in this thread. What more would you like? Ive responded to almost every single thing he listed in any number of other feedback threads.
     
  24. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Although i'm not a (great) supporter of the 'AAA War' , it's still impressive that performs an 'One Man Army' in...2012/13!!!.
     
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  25. Ryiah

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    I'm adamant about trying to clear up any misunderstandings. You asked which post he was referring to, so I pointed towards the ones that seemed the most likely. You then claim he should put it elsewhere, and I mentioned the entire point of this thread was for that very feedback.

    Additionally it should be noted that he was referring quite a bit to AAA titles, but you keep insisting on linking us indie titles that, while definitely very good examples of indie titles, do not qualify for AAA. Yes, the definition is a bit open to interpretation but it mostly centers around massive budgets and those examples you gave are not.
     
  26. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    I think it would be more accurate to say that it would not be possible to do with Unity. Pulling off something with this level of visual fidelity with Unity, if its even possible would take a big team with a big budget, not even mentioning other aspects of the engine required to make gameplay that smooth. By the way all of those games you posted look nice but no one is getting fooled by the PS2 & PS3 visual quality.

     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  27. O_and_N

    O_and_N

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    Aaaaah,the S2Engine!A work in progress since 2005-06.Have gone loong way(and it has visual scripting) but dont wait standing for a public release :( Anyway,tomorow is stingrays day and we shall see.
    Unity shoud hire that s2engine developer.
     
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  28. Deleted User

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    I don't believe that is true in the slightest Andy (or I hope not), there's plenty of examples of one man bands or very small teams making mighty impressive stuff in UE4. They are smaller teams than us.. You need to give us lowly indies more credit.

    I tried a Skyrim type game in Unity 4 BTW, it was all fine and dandy until the 32-bit editor couldn't handle it. The 64-bit editor solved this issue, even if it was very late to the party.

    The smaller you are, the more you rely on tools to increase iteration. That's all.!

    Nelo: 3 man team:

    https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?1222-Nelo-A-game-by-Magic-amp-Mirrors

    Alison Road: one man originally:

    https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?44535-Allison-Road-Survival-Horror

    A bunch of students on this, still very impressive:

    https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?49551-UE4-Student-Project-quot-God-Left-Me-quot

    Another bunch of students, looks every bit AAA to me:

    https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?54661-Trailed-Capstone-Student-Project-NAD

    Has that sort of Last of us look..

    There is a lot more out there... You should see what the bigger teams are doing :).

    Yeah, nothing wrong with them.. Not really what I'm going for as said before, or looking to do but sure I'd play and enjoy them obviously they put a lot of love and time in. Still again, not what I'm going for here or what I'm talking about :).

    I very well understand Andy that artwork and materials don't appear by themselves, somebody has to me make them. Of course a one million poly rock wouldn't be sufficient in most games (besides rock simulator apparently). Yes it does exist.

    But the engine contributes massively to the over all look, I've explained on numerous occasions. If you have a large game it'll generally be real-time GI, you're not going to use Enlighten for it. Simply put without the render cluster (network) service it's too slow and the results aren't sufficient.

    We've explained over and over about post, terrain, lighting and shadows.. But in the overall scheme of things, these aren't on top of the priority list for me and mainly something I can sort out myself (not all of it as access is limited in some areas). Although it's another reason to choose Unreal as it does everything amazingly out the box..

    As for coding, I've been doing it 15 years I'm perfectly fine with C++.. Although it's nice for level designers to quickly whip up some bit's n pieces. On tools, I sure can make them although that's more time away from making my game over the years I'm sure you will build up your repository and it becomes less and less of an issue.

    Starting fresh is the time consuming bit. As for the asset store, I mainly ended up reverse engineering and fixing things so I actively try to avoid it, this isn't limited to just Unity BTW.

    I was referring to myself there :).

    Andy it's not so much a matter of is it possible, because I know it's possible given enough time. I'm sure if I wanted to use a blank game engine framework, given enough time and bringing some more souls on board it's all again very do-able..

    The only major issue I had with Unity was the 32-bit editor which brought things to a halt, which is now rectified. But it made me properly evaluate UE4, so the question really is.. If I don't have to rely on Unity to fix things (which hasn't been a great experience must admit) and I get all the tools and OMG GRFX out the box therefore saving me metric tons of time.

    Tell me why I'd use Unity again?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2015
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  29. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    @Andy Touch - the games listed are nice but not technology showcases for stock Unity.

    Ori, cuphead, lovers - lovely but nothing there that couldn't be done in any number of engines - these are triumphs of lovely art direction. Also I have it on good accord that it was actually really difficult to develop Ori in Unity. Many tools needed to be developed. This isn't surprising though, at that level. I'm giving kudos to the developers not Unity for this. Unity wasn't in any way essential for those titles. I dare say Unity 3.5 would be just as capable.

    PAMELA - I can see a fair few assets from the asset store propping up the visuals. A lovely game and very talented developers. But again, not so much stock Unity.

    In my case I rely on many asset store packages to fill the void Unity still doesn't. In fact, without asset store, I would not be using Unity for our current project, end of. As a smaller developer, the asset store enables me to still compete and quite possibly eclipse results I would get in competing engines. You can tell I'm a major fan of asset store.

    I do however believe that Unity staff are smart and capable people who know that there's still a lot to do, and I'm happy to be along for the ride. I just make it clear that I believe stock Unity isn't (yet) as good as it's competition (where neither engine has any external assets added).

    Still - nobody can deny there are wonderful things being produced in Unity even if it theoretically would be impossible without asset store for small teams. Hopefully things will simply keep improving and improving.
     
  30. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    Put it this way, currently if Unity were to put together an in-house studio or put out a big budget contract for a game that demonstrates Unity's potential it would probably be the equivalent of GTA 3 and require a very big team.

    Compare this to UE4 which is easily capable of powering GTA 6+ with a much smaller team.

    By the way, I really think Unity should have a game to showcase its engine similar to Unreal Tournament, Crysis, etc. Another thing Unity should be doing IMO is hiring more devs from the asset store let alone integrating their packages into the engine.

    As it stands, the main advantage Unity has over UE4 is community, asset store, third party tutorials, simple UI and simple source control. Though Epic is working hard at catching up and fast.

    Tomorrow, Stingray will bring what it has to the table.
     
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  31. tedthebug

    tedthebug

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    Out of curiosity, do Unity devs look at what editor extensions are popular (feedback), popular (sales) & then compare those to the list of requested features? My thinking is that people will always ask for things that they want to be included in a base package but needing them badly enough to go & buy them from the asset store may provide an indicator as to how badly they are wanted/needed/used as not everyone that has the need to buy an editor extension will have provided feedback to Unity expressing a need for stuff to be included in the core engine.
     
  32. Deleted User

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    @S.0.L.0.

    Give them some credit, I've seen better looking games than GTA3 made with Unity on Mobile :D..
     
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  33. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    like what? :p Shadowgun is probably the best looking third person game they have, by the way I think its really cool they gave the source of that game to the Unity community, though I should probably also mention Epic is doing the same thing with Unreal Tournament right now.
     
  34. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    OK guys - try to keep it relatively on topic :)
     
  35. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    Interstellar Marines is probably the closest to AAA Unity has gotten and they just let it die on kickstarter. Unity should have just hired those guys to make an awesome showcase game for Unity and promote the engine. I actually supported them on kickstarter mainly because I wanted to support Unity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  36. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    Anyway Stingray comes out tomorrow and free perforce hosting coming soon with UE4.
     
  37. SunnySunshine

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  38. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    IM has a long way to go before its a finished product and by that time it will be built on an old outdated engine. Its a total shame considering all the effort the devs put into making the game possible with Unity. Complete waste of talent IMO, Unity should be hiring those guys tomorrow.
     
  39. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

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    Why has Unity not gone open source by now? That would be a huge turn around for them.
     
  40. HemiMG

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    I think the reason this keep happening to you is that your brand of evangelism is a bit like Jerry Falwell's. I keep waiting for you to say, 'John Riccitiello works in mysterious ways.' For example, someone said that wanted more tutorials and you ignored the adjective and posted about the learn section. Someone asked for examples of AAA games and you ignored the qualifier and posted indie games. This does more to give the impression that UT isn't actually paying attention to feedback than it does to draw people in, IMHO.

    Back to comparisons, someone on the Unreal Answers site is trying to help with with my lighting issues, so I still may yet see my scene running in Unreal to make a more serious comparison between the two. But as of yet I can't even make a dark room. Even creating a blank scene and putting 6 default cubes into a perfectly sealed, overlapping volume turns into a perfectly lit room when you build the lighting and run it. Of course, all the textures are gray, because there is not light. Yet, the room is lit. So far, not impressed with Unreal. It seems to stand for Unrealistic. That, or it was made by cats who can see in the dark. It sure does look pretty when you create visuals that cats and humans experience the same way though. Maybe some day I'll be able to post screenshots of the exact same level in both Unity and Unreal. I don't think I've ever seen that, and it could be interesting.
     
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  41. Deleted User

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    @HemiMG

    Oh I've plenty of time to battle with the lighting system, send me a PM if you want :).

    Might as well say it here, if you're using static or stationary lighting (under the light properties) (lightmass) then you have to go into world settings and turn environment intensity to 1.0.

    I'd also recommend changing the bounces to 15 and finally update the direct lighting quality to 4.0.. In large scenes you want to drop this, finally if you want better looking lightmap resolution then change the lightmap resolution on the static meshes.

    Also change the colour above environment intensity to match the "mood" of your scene. You might have a post process volume, delete it for now until you get used to how it works. (BTW a post process volume that affects the entire scene is checked as "unbound" at the bottom.

    There we are :).
     
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  42. HemiMG

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    I may still PM you, I don't have any lights at all in the scene, I'm making a horor game. Although I'm not a amatuer like most horror developers who think they are supposed to be dark all the freaking time, I do want the ability to turn the lights out. Unreal seems to lack the ability to do that. If there are no lights it seems to just invent some.

    So far though, I'm really happy with how it is looking in Unity. There are still some seaming issues. The floor of my room is drastically darker than the floor in the hallway when the light is on in the room, but not in the hall. I'd like a smooth transition between the two lighting situations. I suppose that can be solved by making all of the floors for an entire hallway one mesh. But I really don't want to keep reducing the effectiveness of occlusion culling. The seams where hallways meet shouldn't be a problem, since they will always be lit similarly. But then again, seams were walls met were an issue because the light coming from the window on the door would just suddenly and dramatically stop at a seam. So if the light reaches all the way to the end of a hallway, it still may create a sharp contrast where the perpendicular hallway intersects it. I haven't gotten to the point where I add another hallway yet, so I don't know. I also don't know if Unreal will handle the situation any better.

    My only remaining complaint with Unity is the horrible ways it handles HDR that I mentioned earlier. I'd also like a little more bounce from the GI so my rooms are a little more lit when their lights are on, but lights from the hall are shining in, but I think there's a setting for that somewhere. And Unreal doesn't have realtime GI at all, so I'd imagine the problem would only get worse there. Well, it would get worse if Unreal didn't insist on making dark spaces into brightly lit ones. Unreal seems to do reflections way better too, even with the SSR effect from Plawius in my scene. Unity's SSR should be coming soon though, so we'll see how that looks.

    Overall though, the game is turning out really pretty in Unity. I'd like to finish it on this engine so maybe one day my indie game becomes one that Andy mentions when people ask about AAA games! Haha.
     
  43. Ryiah

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    I did a quick search and dug up a couple possible solutions. Try adding a direction light and setting the intensity to zero. If that doesn't work, try checking "World Settings" -> "Environment Intensity". Supposedly a new map starts with a value other than the one you used last.

    These are from 2014 though and I don't have Unreal on at the moment to verify them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  44. HemiMG

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    I'll give it a try whenever I decide to open Unreal and mess around again. There is a directional light in there, it just shouldn't be having any effect on a fully enclosed room. In Unity, I have my directional light shining through the windows, with pretty super terrific realtime GI in the rooms that have it. The rooms that don't have it go dark when their lights are off. Like rooms are supposed to. I'd really like to have a little more bounce, like I said. The sunlit room still seems darker than a sunlit room would be, and the rooms aren't as well lit by open doors as I'd like. But those are minor squabbles. I think gamers are going to be too busy trying to not get killed to care about whether the light is perfect. I'd imagine they'll all turn their flashlights on as soon as the lights go out too. It's a really easy trap for us developers to spend more time than we need to stressing out over things that players aren't going to care too much about. But, this is a horror game, and most horror games are utter crap since horror attracts rank amateurs in droves across pretty much every medium. So attention to detail should go a long way in this genre.
     
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  45. superpig

    superpig

    Drink more water! Unity Technologies

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Posts:
    4,649
    Because we integrate a ton of middleware that we cannot release the source code for.

    Where self-contained parts of the engine can be open-sourced, we're doing that, but rearchitecting the entire engine in a way that allows us to strip out the middleware for a source release without losing the power of a deep integration... well, it's not an easy problem and it doesn't happen overnight.
     
  46. ZJP

    ZJP

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Posts:
    2,649
    The Asset Store is (indeed) an incredible place for small team.
    Ex: Truss Physics : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/41801

     
  47. Teo

    Teo

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Posts:
    564
    Nothing impressive for engine part really, if you put same gfx assets in Unity you will get same results.
     
  48. Teo

    Teo

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Posts:
    564
    "Stingray will be available for purchase on August 19."

    But is not available yet..

    I guess some one from Autodesk forgot today is 19 in Europe!:)
     
  49. O_and_N

    O_and_N

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2014
    Posts:
    50
  50. S-0-L-0

    S-0-L-0

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Posts:
    163
    lol I doubt that Unity can get anything looking that good, also that project is a good example of UE4 out of the box graphics.
     
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