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General feedback & other software.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aurore, Aug 14, 2015.

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  1. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    RPG Maker is a medium more for telling a story than creating a game.

    Maybe.

    No :)
     
  2. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    I've said this before on here, but every time I hear this it really irks me. 43% retail markup is not that high. For comparison, retail markup on clothing is around 100%. Meaning if you made clothes instead of games, you'd get a 50% cut instead of 70%. Before stores like iTunes came around, authors and musicians were lucky to get 15% of their sales. Now they can sell direct and get 70%. Traditional consignment shops, such as the ones that jewelry makers sell at, give a 60/40 split. Anyone who thinks a 30% cut to get your product onto a well known marketplace is expensive simply put knows nothing at all about business. If you want to make games as a hobby, that's fine. You don't need to know anything about business. But if you are talking about putting things on stores, then you really need to learn about business just as much as you need to learn about texturing and programming. 70/30 is the standard split for digital goods for a reason. If it was just Apple being greedy, then other digital stores would take less to attract more developers. And of course, that doesn't even mention the fact that you are comparing a consignment split to engine royalties, which are two completely different things.
     
  3. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    I been around the block.

    What are you smoking man, 30% is a huge chunk of the mobile market. It reminds me of the days of the big fancy greedy publishers. If you own Apple product, then is a sure thing, you only got one water hole to go to. They can charge 95% and we would end up sucking water from the hole. The point is they are greedy, period.

    What does Apple brings to the table? They make really nice mobile phones and proprietary system. Why can they let developers produce their games using windows?
    Why do they impose restriction like this? Is simple, is call greed. You don't need a business degree to see what's in front of you. Hey but what do I know about anything.

    Back when I ran my online stores I was paying about 2% processing fee, I think Paypal takes a hefty 3%. Server cost these days is very cheap. Not sure how much money goes into paying a bunch of college grads to monitor and police the site and follow up on freshly admitted apps, games, etc. I 'm sure you got huge personal with Apple. The online store runs itself, is not like they got a cashier at the check out, just a plane jane shopping cart.

    Apple could take 15% cut, but that would not be a smart business decision. If Apple would to drop to 15% then so would Google, Amazon and Steam. The reason why is cause is a pseudo pricing standard with Apple as the ring leader. Is all bs at the end. I think we should all move into a resource based economy and f&$%? capitalism, communism and every isim. Trust yourself and and always do what your heart tells you, no matter how hard or painful it may be. The good news these days is you don't have to be a coder to make nice games. You just got to have a passion for it and be able to problem solve things. If you're a game designer you already knew that.

    edit--
    We can go around looking for worst business out there ripping self merchants and I understand you are making a wrong comparison. Solid goods require more effort. Effort to store, transport and manufacture. Apps are not in the same category. Do you understand is something being produce almost out of thing air vs. Pablo and family harvesting crops all day in the sun and Bubba sauce hauling it across county. Burning fossil fuel, energy.
    A 30% for a company that reportedly does almost half of all mobile sells, putting it lightly. That is a call a license to print money.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
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  4. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    And 50% is a huge chunk of the clothing market. 40% is a huge chunk of the jewelry market. That's how percentages work. So I'm not sure what your point is. As far as the other companies just following suit, that doesn't pass the smell test either. You are calling out Apple for being greedy, yet giving them the blame for every other company taking the same amount. When everyone is giving the same amount of something, that is the most likely the market rate. The rate that we get is factually higher than the rate that the producers of many other goods get. Yet, that isn't enough for you. You want more, and are calling someone else greedy because they won't give it to you.

    You're right, digital goods are different than physical goods. Which is why you are now getting 70% instead of the 15% or so you would have been getting if you still had to get your game in Gamestop to sell it. What these stores provide is objectively worth more than what they charge. If the 70% cut was such a raw deal, nobody would sell games on Steam. Nobody. Certainly not the AAA guys that have easier access to direct to consumer sales.
     
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  5. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    Is there one thing I'm not is greedy, I make money and spend it as quick as I make it. I don't love money
    and don't really care for it. As long as my family is taking care of and I have enough for a rainy day. I am not here to get rich making games or care to make hundreds of thousands. If I do great and if I don't great also.
    All I'm saying, I guess is Apple is in a unique situation, they are holding most of the cards. If they want to charge 30 or 50 we still have to go to that water hole. Their are only a few big players here raking all the money.

    Amazon, Google, Steam and Apple with a nice healthy slice of the pie. I would love to see more channels besides the major player. I still think is a big peace of the action. A nice generous 15-17% would be ideal and fair. We are doing all the leg work. How many sleepless night and technical jargon some of us have undergone.

    Is a nasty world we're leaving in. I wish this was the future like start trek. No money, no need to take from people, is all given to you free of charge. All you have to do is pitch in and help make your world a better place. I don't believe in the carrot on a stick method is the best solution. Look at Epic, sure they are making big money, it comes with the job. I bet they would still be as passionate if there where guarantee food on the table and a roof over their head. It proves you could have created people doing what they love and without a price over their head.
     
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  6. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Apple is providing you with a market and the necessary payment service backend. They are covering the cost of hosting the files, bandwidth for distributing them, and any customer service tied to them. They are covering the cost of backend services such as Game Center. They are reviewing incoming games to ensure a specific degree of quality.

    Would you prefer they send you the bill for every single aspect you see there? Or simply deduct a mere 30%?
     
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  7. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    I totally understand, I'm not pretending here. I see clearly, too clear.
    Let us not forget Epic then. Lets see:
    They have to pay God knows how many programmers, staff, managers, building cost, utilities, licenses. The list could go
    on and on. For a 5% return, which by the way it could be negotiable if you hit the big times. You think if it was only Epic running half the show and gobbling half the market. Do you think it would be 5%? I think it would cost us millions.
    The point is think God for competition. Apple does not know what competition is because is their brand of crack and everyone loves it. I say we need two or three more Apple like companies in the ring. Then you see how humble a company can become.
     
  8. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Your comparison is flawed though. Epic actually has very little in the way of true competition. The only non-proprietary engine that truly stands any chance of competing is Unity. Crytek receives occasional mention for the outdoor visuals it can produce but when was the last time you remember someone stating they were using it?
     
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  9. cyberpunk

    cyberpunk

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    I think 30% is fair.
     
  10. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    Yeah, I know Epic is the 800 pound Gorilla, but at least they know not to push things to the brink. If they started misbehaving and getting unfair, then that could open a window of opportunity for another company with similar technology. These days is not coke vs pepsi, the world is more complex now. A quick Google search could point you always in the right direction. Meaning if things starts falling apart then usually theirs 50 other companies waiting to take the throne.
    I use to be deeply involve in the sale and distribution of large manufacturing air conditioning companies. Like Trane, Goodman and have seen many unheard of changes in the industry. All driven by competition, supply and demand and who can build it cheaper. At the end is all the same.
     
  11. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    If this were the case we would see more engines emerging. Instead we saw Unity sitting on the indie throne unchallenged for quite some time before Epic took notice and decided to compete with them. At this point competition is rough and you cannot simply get away with anything short of a mix of Unity's ease of use and Unreal's graphical horsepower.
     
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  12. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    For now we have two great engines in our bag of weapons. Thing could change overnight and next year Frostbite could be knocking one day.
    Learning these two engines is very time consuming and I can't image taking on another. Maya, Modo, Rhino, Autocad, Photoshop. I have great respect for all of you that are starting out or have been there for a while. In this business if you stop learning new technology you become obsolete fast. Have to stay focus and never quit.
     
  13. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Both or Cryteck, Snowdrop etc ... engines are made by companies doing that only : gaming ; this is the big difference also ; Autodesk would have to make games and enter the game engine market with an entire sub group of hundred dedicaced people to gaming.
    Autodesk remains modeling tools as their first and priority task not a game engine company. They are doing like Anarchy engine for example , Havok work is physics not gaming engine , because entering the world of gaming engine to be able to bring a solid solutions needs hundred of people and talented ones.

    You forget Valve and small open source engines growing like Godot , Paradox , Jmonkey , Atomic engine etc ... and a lot of good alternatives engines for 2d games also.

    There is beginners or newbbies doing great with Unreal 4 , it depends on what game size and style you want to achieve with it from small to big and from super realistic to semi realistic or stylized. Action , dungeons , level based etc .... games are always simpler than wanting to make some open world.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
  14. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Apple is also outsourcing the labor at the cost of foreign lives to keep their costs low and profits high. Greedy is a fitting description. It's not like the premium price for Apple products exists so the company can be profitable and improve the lives of the countries they outsource to... it's all for more money.

    I don't know why that made me think of blender.
     
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  15. nipoco

    nipoco

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    ...like nearly every other huge company on this planet. Not just in the IT market. Nike, Adidas, Google, Amazon, HP, Unilever, you name it.
    So pointing your finger at Apple here is a bit pointless.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
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  16. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    3D game engine means to be able to propose complete toolset, and continue improving graphics over years following new features like new tools or PBR, soon realtime GI etc ...
    If you want to make money you will need hundreds of people or more entirely dedicaced to that and really skilled, otherwise you won't be able to compete with other, and you will fail trying to get the money ( like Havok tried with a very poor and empty support and poor releases :rolleyes: )
    In some way Cryteck tried but they failed because they never supported indies and small studios and they never tried to make things easy or bring new tools like Unity or UE4 are doing.
    I think only some understant : We success if you success
    This implies keeping improving the 3d engine AND supporting people that uses the engine with docs, tutorials and listening to feedback.

    Right, i like a lot Blender and sure they should really forget the gaming part of it :p
     
  17. Deleted User

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    I'd actually be interested to know if anyone switched from UE4 to Unity and why?
     
  18. Pix10

    Pix10

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    @ShadowK
    I've got a mate who switched (small team of 5). Was nothing to do with the engines as it happens, but came about after I showed him how much I've customized the editor, and how easy it was to create a nice environment to work in.

    One of the problems his team had with UE4 was all the changes that were going on in the first 12 months (both core engine and the UI). While the rate of development from Epic was impressive, and they chose it in the first place because they really do actually like it, it didn't do much to help them actually move forward with their own stuff - too many distractions in the shape of shiny new stuff, ironically.

    If Unity has one thing, it's that the changes are either mostly under the hood or are non-invasive. Sure, some things change (transform-order sorting in Hierarchy for instance), and the move to U5 has come with a lot of re-learning for PBR and Enlighten, but in general Unity's development is rarely disruptive.
     
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  19. Pix10

    Pix10

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    If I was to refer to them as people, I'd say UE4's like the weird nerdy kid that knows a lot of cool stuff, but you tune out half the time because you don't really understand a lot of it...good to know, but can be a bit overbearing; Unity's like a best mate who's maybe not great with the girls but doesn't cramp your style, and shares your sense of humor; Stingray's like the kid who wants to be everyone's mate, but is trying too hard and doesn't really 'get it' yet ...he's got some growing up to do, and has to find his own self-identity. Until then he's eating pack lunch in the corner on his own.
     
  20. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    What about Cryengine. my turn.
    Is the kid that was super talented and though he had all the answers. When it became time to man up and grow and do what the rest of the kids where doing, it decided to follow his old ways. Now no one wants to play with him and his crying in the corner of the gym. You have to know is all about the consumer and reinvent yourself over and over. Don't never think your smarted than the consumer cause even if you are it could go to your head and end up sleeping on the ground like a quail waiting to get eating by a snake.
     
  21. Deleted User

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    Nah the one that thought he was better than everyone else, alienated his friends and now nobody will associate themselves with him. He'll pull his pants down for attention every now and again, but everyone just laughs at him. He's got plenty of potential but too busy willy waving to take advantage of it.
     
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  22. stormwiz

    stormwiz

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    Nailed it.
    The minute any company or individual get to the top and start acting like they are number 1 and why try push our self.
    They turn around and look is already too late, everyone have passed. If Crytek wanted to be taking serious then they have to come down the white horse and give game dev a more realistic peace offering. Like Epic has or Unity, but first they have to turn that black box of an engine into a user friendly, it feels like a russian tank from ww2.
     
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  23. antislash

    antislash

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    cryengine is a secondary business for crytek, let's not forget that they basically produce good games and have few licencees that are enough for them..
    cryengine is more like a attempt to make a little money from sleeping bytes.
     
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  24. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Fin.
     
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