Gender in game mechanics

Well, Campbell is a man of a certain age. I did a little research and there are plenty of female writers talking about the female's hero's journey. Since the hero's journey grew from ancient myths and stories in a mostly patriarchal society with patriarchal gods, it is not surprising that most heroes were men.

But that is an artificial human concoction based on historical norms. You could easily put a woman in the place of a man and unless you are setting your story in a historical setting in our real world, that woman could fit very well into the journey role. The world has evolved...society has evolved.

Today's world sees women in many more roles with less restrictions. We journey, travel to Antarctica and make new discovers, explore the deep ocean, climb mountains, work and study with primitive cultures, and even fly into space. The boundaries that kept women from being heroes in those journeys are broken. We have found that women are as capable as men in such endeavors and they may approach things differently, they do succeed...even alone in a space capsule or collecting biological samples in a remote area. Humans are social but it isn't gender based anymore, it is part of our entire society.

So why not put women as heroes on a journey in your games?

 

I guess another way to turn it on it's head is to game-ify a "feminine" farming experience.... bit more of a sim that way but you could totally be a primitive farm woman and roaming men could come along and you have to figure out how to get technology off them (stone ax, plow, replacement seeds, hire workers) LOL now I sound like a gold digger again... whatever, I am just talking off the top of my head.

If you go looking for women who bucked convention, they are there. Since they are underused it might be a goldmine for new twists based on history-ish.... Alexander the Great said he was following in Helen of Troy's footsteps, and he was basically the man's man of all conquering adventurers....

But what RockoDyne is saying is also interesting. What is the game where the "princess" is the main character? Where you don't have to fall back on cliches that she will be married to someone she doesn't like, or is a pawn in older smarter people's intrigue, or a WE Network pity party like Malificent.... Like, there are fairy tales where a female protagonist has to use her wits (not ninja skills)? How does that translate to a game?

 

Well, having been a fan of those silly little casual games for a while now (I haven't time for anything serious), many of them do exactly that. It is the female who is trying to find her boyfriend, brother, sister, whatever, rather than Linc finding Zelda. In almost all of these, the female "journeyer" uses her wits and her persuasive skills to beat the bad guy/lady and win the game.

I happen to like these games because fighting games bore me. lol I am more into puzzles, exploring or role playing (not rpg), not because I am a woman, but because that is my preference.

BTW, those little casual games sell and they sell big time. I have played dozens upon dozens of them and have paid for every one of them. Sad..yeah. I swore them off during the last year to work on my game but I do miss them. I am pretty sure they market to people like me, probably more women than men. They seem to be very successful.

 

Pretty sure Natsume has you covered there.

I suppose I should say the hero's journey is really not about the journey for me, so much as it is the hero and the hero's growth, especially if he turns anti-hero or villain.

 

@RockoDyne interesting point. The only times I ever read about a girl becoming a woman, I wince at the author for just including rape, menstruation or adoption of the motherly role after the loss of a mother in his/her novel. Maybe this stems from there being no "right of passage" for women that involves accomplishing anything.

@Teila what is the setting for this idea of yours? I think you already mentioned realistic, but are there any science fiction or fantasy elements?

More often than not, if you dislike violent games, you just haven't played one violent enough

 

Which brings us back full circle to the OP. Men as a population tend to like games with a heavy emphasis on combat themes and mechanics more then women do.

 

Well my interest is peaked. Can you recommend one or two? Or what is the genre called so I can hunt for more info on how they are constructed?

Or are you saying they are typical adventure games with "female" stories...? Still recommend some to me

 

Oh, these are not your typical adventure game, although I love The Longest Journey. It doesn't play well with today's computers though although still works a bit...not so nice looking though. There are a number of adventure games that have female heroes, such as Siberia. Wish I could tell you more but that was so long ago!

I subscribed to BigFish games for a while and lots of their games had female characters. Not sure of the name of any of them since I played dozens of them and no longer subscribe.

 

The longest journey was on Late Night! If that's your thing, I could recommend Syberia to you.

 

Tommnn, it is an original world, no magic, not really science fiction. Technology is 12th-13th century, with some differences among cultures and a couple of more primitive cultures. Nothing like WoW though, promise.

It is not just an idea.

 

No, that isn't full circle because most men and women don't like video games and never entered the arena.

 

As long as I'm not boring anyone with my tales of transition, I have thoughts on the whole "men are violent" thing, too.

Growing up, I tried my damndest to "be a boy". I never really understood what it meant, and I never really understood the boys that I was friends with. It mostly didn't make sense to me, punching and hitting each other as play, stuff like that. I generally felt out of place but since I had no idea what that really meant for me until much later in life, I did whatever I had to to get by.

I wasn't really allowed to show much emotion, and that's a key element in this post. I would get yelled at by my father and grandfather for "acting like a girl" or "crying" or just simply not acting the way they thought boys should act. My father would beat me for crying too much.

Thus, the idea that boys aren't allowed to openly show emotions started to take hold. I learned over time that the only emotion I was really allowed to express was violence. I watched my father struggle with emotional issues by drinking, yelling, breaking things, and beating me up. Violence was the only way that real men expressed emotion.

It wasn't just me that experienced that. It's part of our culture. Men are trained and groomed and programmed to hide their emotions, otherwise they'll be seen as weak. The only emotional expressions that seem to ever be allowed for men are violence, aggression, and hardness. It's a strong message. Amplified by media. Amplified by society. Mostly amplified by men themselves.

Before I started my transition, I loved really violent games. There were times when I was listed on the charts as one of the top 10 ranked Counter Strike players, back in the nineties. I loved horror movies. The scarier the better. And as I got older, I looked for the most violent, disturbing horror movies I could find. I've pretty much seen them all. It occurred to me right before I came to the realization that I was trans that I sought out ultra violent horror films as an emotional escape. They became the only way I could find release from the constant pressure of emotion building up and building up, day after day, which I had walled off in a prison inside myself.

And now, after I started transition, I no longer seek out horror movies. I have no desire. I no longer seek out violent games. I have no desire. I can freely show my emotions, because in our society women are allowed to, and even expected to, and that means I have release.

I grew up as a "boy" and I have nothing but love in my heart and empathy for what boys and men are saddled with from the day they are born (just as I do for what girls and women are saddled with). The only emotions boys are encouraged to project are negative ones, and that just keeps getting piled on and reinforced throughout their lives. And that's really sad.

So... why do guys love to play violent combat games? I personally don't think it's so much because they are born to enjoy violence, I think that it is programmed into them and they are not given many other avenues or opportunities for release. At least not when it comes to non-violence. And violence gives that release. Even simulated violence.

But sometimes... they snap. Sometimes, yup, men snap. And they freak out and kill people. Because violence is the accepted result of mens' emotions, and that is sometimes all they know how to express. And we say "oh, they were disturbed" or "oh, that's what men do" and whatever else we tell ourselves to avoid having to admit that something really needs to be done. Things need to change. Men need to be allowed and encouraged to express their emotions. Freely. Without ridicule. Without being seen as "weak". Without being seen as "lesser". And without being called a "girl" when they do it (which is insulting on so many levels, to all genders).

Anyway, that's my thoughts, based on my own personal adventurous journey.

 

Totally not bored. As one who has been on both sides of the fence you have an incredibly unique perspective.

I totally agree that part of what men and women are is a result of what society pushes on us. There are genetic differences too.

Unfortunately the challenge of separating upbringing from genetics by any scientific method is difficult. Its like asking "Who would be the greatest football player, if none of them ever trained." There have been some interesting studies done on identical twins separated at birth. But by its nature this type of study cannot compare gender issues.

The study type that could investigate gender differences outside of societal pressures is currently so far outside our ethical horizons as to be impossible.

 

What about just the people who are gamers? And don't include the study that said a majority of gamers are female because of facebook games and candycrush lol.

Any absurdly violent peoples who eat the hearts of the fallen?

I wonder if you would have made the transition without this experience. It follows the same strange pattern of girls who are oppressed by their parents and turn out exactly opposite of what the parents were trying to beat & bully them to not be. In your case, that would be a girl. It's probably just a coincidence, but it's the most extreme scenario I've heard that loosely fits the pattern.

 

Wow, very interesting insight there, Ony!!

My father had issues with emotions and my brother does as well. Fortunately, as my father aged, he is more able to show his feelings. I think I was an adult before he told me that he loved me.

On the other side, my son jokes that he is a "womanly man" because he is sensitive and sweet, the girls like him "as a friend" and he has three sisters. My lady friends think he is wonderful. He loves to cook. He likes girls and wants a girlfriend more than anything..but is too shy...typical computer programmer. I am sure his time will come. I think he is a good looking guy.

While eating dinner a few moments ago, I asked my three kids what sort of games they prefer, ones where the hero primarily uses fighting or one where they use their wits? The girls said wits, which didn't surprise me. My son said he likes both equally. He finds games with all fighting as dull and he enjoys strategy and puzzles more but likes a combo of the two.

My son is very good at expressing his feelings, sometimes in an angry way and that concerns me but at least he is letting us know how he feels. He was subjected to a lot of abuse and neglect as a very young child and entered foster care at age 2. We adopted him at 4 1/2 and he repressed a lot of feelings for a while and acted out. I am very proud of the young man he has become and I do believe that teaching him to express his feelings in a less destructive way helped him.

But..I still meet young men who were not given that chance. I have played DnD with 10 year old boys who are so violent that it disturbed me, so much so that I could not play with them again. Scary.

 

Ha!! Well, not in the lore although there is plenty of violence, wars, religious conflict and political intrigue. Since it is a role playing game, I suppose players could develop a heart-eating sect somewhere along the line. I would not be at all surprised!

Should I have human hearts dropped as loot and see what they do?

 

Combat mechanics in and of themselves aren't that special. A shooting gallery and a hidden object game are mechanically identical from an input perspective. The only differences are whether (or how) you're under pressure, and what states the things you click on might have.

 

I forgot to address this. Thank you for saying this, Ony. I have no desire to watch horror movies or play violent games. You would be surprised, or maybe not, to know that I receive a lot of pressure from male friends to "just try this game" or "watch this movie or TV show" or even to "buy a gun". They just don't get it. I don't watch certain TV shows with my husband because they just make me sick...I can't stomach gore and violence. I know I have mentioned this here before, but hearing you say this makes me realize that it is probably something in my biology.

Good! I am living a very happy life without them.

 

Yes. It can be an ingredient for cardiac stew

Shooting games are going to be amazing when sixense finally delivers their product in 2096! I hope I'm still alive then

I love scary movies, gore and all that blah blah. But I still fear and hate guns with a passion that's out of this world. Virtual violence is one thing, but guns are just... what's the point?

Fist fights moved on to stick fights moved on to sword fights moved on to gun fights moved on to nuclear scares. The only thing you do when you raise the tier of violence is increase the number of casualties :/

 

I haven't played many (any?) hidden object games. I should probably remedy that before I try comment further on mechanical differences. My general use of the term mechanics would include the pressure and states as well. Do you die and have to start over in a hidden object game if you don't "shoot" the objects fast enough?

Any good free online hidden object games I can go try out so I actually know what I'm talking about with this genre?

 

I don't think I have ever lost a hidden picture game so can't tell you. I think that you won't have to start over, but not sure. Most HP games I have played are a mystery or story of some sort and the HP's are just a part of it. Sometimes they are done well and fit into the story and you find items you can use in puzzles.

 

And back. Just got my behind handed to me by this game. It was top of their list of hidden object games, so I'll assume its representative. Please correct me if I'm wrong. To be honest I didn't even realise these were a thing.

The mechanic is completely different from a shooting gallery game. In a shooting gallery game there is some minor information processing around innocent targets. But in general its a fast paced reaction game.

And now I'm totally sold on the idea of different genres appealing to different genders. I hated the hidden object game. My wife enjoyed it. Sure this is a very small sample size, but I'm pretty sure the audience stats lean the same way.

I just found the game had to much data to process. I couldn't put anything into a logical frame of reference. And simply scanning for each item from top left to bottom right was to slow for the game. Give me an FPS with a clear target highlighted in red any day. I don't think changing the theme to something traditionally masculine as suggested by the extra credits video would make the game any more appealing to me.

So yeah, total about face on this one. I'm now thinking the OP might have been onto something with females "ability to intuit and process large amounts of data quickly" verses the male "ability to react fast". There's more to it then that of course. And like any sweeping gender statements this will be flat out wrong in many individual cases. But it might hold true in the general population case.

You have to start the level again from the beginning. So yes, it is a death mechanic. Fortunately for me the items weren't randomised between levels. Otherwise I would never have gotten past the first one.

 

There seems to be a bit of crossed wires here. I was talking about women in games, as characters, protagonists, and NPCs. I am not talking about the person behind the controller, i'm talking about the little people inside the screen. Realities about women's biology and choices have influenced the roles that they take, both in life and in media.

 

as i understand, it goes pretty well



Women are still bound to a large degree by skeletal structure, but steroids and hormone replacements can allow almost every other biological limitation to be simply turned off. There are often a lot of undesireable side effects though

But in the case of FtM transition, a lot of those side effects are actually desired. There's a couple of FTM cases here: http://www.oddee.com/item_99125.aspx

 

@Nanako What is that before and after picture showing exactly? lol I would assume without any other context that it was an advertisement for steroids.

 

I'm curious... if you believe that, then why do you have such a hard time believing that genetically engineered space marines or shapeshifting elf druids might be able to overcome similar limitations?

 

You know, I've never played one of those games, but that was really fun. I got pretty far, almost the end of the second city, before running out of energy. Hey, a new game type I've never tried! Awesome.

 

Wait, let me get my can opener for these worms. Ok, done. If you had done this same five-minute sample-size-of-two experiment with two guys, one black, and one white, and the white guy liked the game more, would you come to the conclusion that black people are just bad at processing large amounts of information?

 

i'm scottish too

 

No no, of course not! That's ridiculous... the obvious conclusion would actually be that whites are superior [information processors], not that blacks are inferior [information processors].

I smashed that can of worms so hard, it might not even open. The lid is now dented inward.

 

That's a pretty heavily sensationalized article. It seems to be conflating trans experience with some sort of warning about steroids. You even linked it as having a "couple of FTM cases" represented. The woman who decided to become a man because too much steroid use? The woman who was so affected by steroids that she now dresses like a man and avoids womens' bathrooms? Ugh.

I know plenty of trans-men and none of them just up and "decided to be a man" because of overuse of steroids. That's just really inaccurate, sorry. If you Google "women who turned into men from steroids" you'll see a bunch of links to those same stories from the article, all from tabloid newspapers.

 

Hey, he did admit that he could be wrong. You need to read his entire statement.

 

Yeah, it's probably 3 topics:
Gender differences in players
Gender differences in game characters
...well more than 3 topics really, but I think there is sort of a natural crossover there between the players and the games they choose to play.

Topics we still need to get to though:
narrative vs abstract
dexterity vs strategy
Bronies

 

Yeah, I used to play these to 'de-stress', especially when my eldest daughter was still at home. lol They really make you focus and keep your mind occupied, allowing me to think of nothing else. Clearing my mind was sort of a way for me to relax, let all the stuff I couldn't control just fade away for short time. Glad you enjoyed it!

 

No. I'm a scientist (sort of). I understand that there is no statistical validity to my conclusions. You'd need large expensive studies to prove this one way or another.

However there is a lot of anecdotal data stacking up. The demographics of hidden object games is decidedly biased towards females. The demographics of the FPS is decidedly biased towards males. I'm pretty sure an ANOVA test would reveal these differences are statistically significant.

The massive unscientific leap I made was stating that this could be because the genders brains are wired differently. Again, I have no hard data for this. But plenty of anecdotal evidence.

If you want a proper scientific analysis then go pay for a peer reviewed journal.

 

That's exactly what I was talking about before with my previous understandings of 'FtM' cases. Not stories like that, but images like that. I wonder why no one wants to give accurate representations of the process overall. I can see it being reasonable to warn about extreme cases, but there's nothing to confront people with because as we see with @Ony you'd never know just by seeing them in public!

Too late. Can of worms tampered with.

This is more exciting than minesweeper!

 

People look for explanations but in the case of being transsexual I don't know of any explanation that is well supported by evidence. There are lots of hypotheses mostly related to your favourite theory of why people do stuff.

In my case all I know is that I felt bad about myself in a way that related to gender. I have no idea why I felt that way. However it was persistent, hard to live with (we have a 25% suicide rate) and got worse with age. It's usually called gender dysphoria (opposite of euphoria). Ultimately I realized I wasn't going to live out the year if I didn't do something to deal with it (drive too fast, head for the trree on the bend, etc etc) and I did what I needed to do. I'm a lot happier now. Just don't ask my why. I just wanted to keep living.

 

The main mechanics of those games are still pointing at an object and clicking on it though. The differences, of having several objects on screen but only selecting a few or having a few objects that need to be hit quickly, are set dressing to the same mechanic.

Also, just to say F*** demographics, there's Huniepop, an 18+ connect three, dating sim game with sometimes humorous, but mostly cringe worthy dialogue.

 

That looks like those stupid articles that get you to click on them because they have such outrageous titles. I wouldn't take them seriously. I am sure there is much more to the story there but the publisher of that article simple told us the juicy parts. I hate that kind of misinformation. It just feeds our need for sensationalism.

 

[citation needed]

Here are the current world record holders in:

Deadlift: With|Without straps



Benchpress:


Squat



Blacks tend to excel in speed and impact sports, because they have some demonstrated advantage in twitch/explosive muscle fibres. Boxing is the only "Strength" area where they have dominance, afaik, and that has taken a VERY sharp downturn since slavs started competing seriously, 5-10 years after the fall of the ussr. The past ten heavyweight champions have been 7 slavs and three black men.

Perhaps there's a case to say that black americans are, on average stronger than white americans, but outside of that continent it does not seem to hold sway. And i would argue that black americans are on average, genetically superior to most africans due to selective breeding for physical talent.

 

It is nothing like clicking in a shooting game, sorry. There is an adrenalin rush in a shooting game that I never get in Hidden Picture games. I get stressed in shooting games, relaxed in hidden pictures. Yes, you have to click, but you search and click, not click click click. The mechanics feel entirely different to me.

Maybe not to you though. I guess it depends on how you engage when playing the game. I engage with my mind when doing HP but I have to concentrate on my hands in a shooting game.

As for Huniepop....LOL. It is a game that is about a man dating women and he can even dress them up. Weird! But it seems to be liked by both men and women, I guess because of the sex angle.

Not my thing, mostly because it looks like sappy anime (nothing against anime), but great to see an adult game out there.

 

When I first started out, I felt very pressured to come up with some explanation. To follow a prescribed narrative that explained why I was doing what I was doing. That was tough and I spent a couple of years trying to settle on some explanation. In the end, I realized I did it because I felt like it. It was something I felt I needed to do so I did it. I have no other reason. And that's pretty much what I tell people now. That works for me.

 

The demographics are also heavily skewed towards white people. (Of course, pretty much all video game demographics are skewed towards white people). I think this gets back to the point of the original video: do people buy the games made for their gender because they are marketed and themed towards that gender (seems likely!) or because all the neuroscientists in the world are wrong and/or part of a conspiracy, and women have a genetic deficiency in reaction time while men have a genetic deficiency in processing data (seems questionable...). I'd think, as a scientist, Occam's Razor would apply.

 

As the parent of an adopted child who is an African American, I find this really out there. Sorry, but African Americans are of all shapes, colors and physical conditions, just like everyone else. I am not sure what else to say about this other than I would like to see you post some very serious scientific studies as evidence for your statements.

Also, why does this belong here? What does it have to do with games? At least gender issues are important to game development if one wants to build for a specific audience.

 

I was responding to a post (that i quoted) which asserted blacks as the master race of strength.

 

So the final paragraph of your post was a quote? Might be wise to use quotes then. It appeared to come from you and it is not something you want attributed to you. If I were you, I would go back and put it in quotes. These things can follow you, you know.

 

We're never going to know why people do things. It's the wonder of being intelligent. We can make arbitrary choices for no reason at all

Have you ever tried one finger death punch? If you dislike it, then you're definitely not into adrenaline & fast paced stuff It's pretty much the epitome of the genre.

They might be physically superior, but white people will always be more evil. And capitalism is evil, therefor whites win.

@BoredMormon did I miss anything? Has this miracle thread covered every controversial issue possible while remaining civil?

 

Can we talk some more about religion?

I'll show myself out.

 

I think it has but what a lot of knowledge we have gained...and a lot of our own pompous opinions. You all are great! Even if I don't agree with everything you say, you certainly entertained me today. And some of your comments were passed to my teens and we had our own deep conversations. I love that sort of stuff.

 

oh no, that paragraph was a concession. The original poster asserted blacks as superior strengthwise to whites. My brief digging shows this to be provably untrue outside of america, but i cannot conclusive disprove it within. I concede, based primarily on black dominance of boxing titles when it was an american-only sport, that there may be some advantage there.

The concession is a reduction, you understand? It's not "here's what i believe to be true"

it's more like "here's what's left of your argument that i haven't smashed up yet, you can have it back for now"