Gender in game mechanics

Here's another fallacy of your "logic". I don't even need to make women "superior" in strength or dexterity to show an example where that is exactly the quality that made a guy LOSE: Huckleberry Finn. Have you seriously never read Mark Twain? Huck is so excited to show how superior he is physically that he gives himself away - just because he had "superior" physical skills didn't make him smarter, and didn't make him check his pride.

Honestly, you could try to expand your reading material a little more before you try to dictate "how things are".

 

I think it's good to debate the issue. As long as people keep it relatively civil, and actually debate the premises/arguments. I'm glad they are letting us debate the topic. Although, it does stir up emotions in people -- and rightly so. But once people start resorting to calling other people names etc....then it fails to be of any use. Strong and heated debate is healthy, but it's hard sometimes.

 

But how is that going to help a female tank?

 

What are you talking about here?

maybe you've missed the entire billions strong game industry of combat, large guns, heavy armour, oversized swords, and killing satan. various combinations thereof. Certainly modern military games, and RPGs tend to be heavily reliant on strength.

A furniture moving game? Gosh no, that sounds awfully boring...

Noir? sure i have, its a genre set in mostly urban locales, largely involving normal people who don't wear armour on a daily basis. I can think of a very few games which fit that genre, LA Noir is the most notable recent one. The protagonist was an ex marine turned hardass cop, oddly.

It's certanly a lot less common than most other genres. certainly it's a setting where physical strength isn't as relevant, but given the rarity i'm not sure it fits here.

I'm not even sure what to make of this statement. you're describing a list of things which you aren't doing, and loudly insulting me in a manner which i can only describe as smearing. it's like you're trying to win public support.

Again, reality is objective, it is based on data. I assert two facts:
1. Women are, on average, mentally predisposed against violence.
2. Women are, on average, physically weaker than men, at all levels of competition.

Certainly you could cherrypick examples to "refute" these, but i could find a million housewives for every freedom fighting guerilla princess you might dig up. Outliers do exist, and theres's nothing wrong with writing stories about them. there's also nothing wrong with writing fantasy, if you like. But i have a problem with people who are offended by reality and try to actively deny it.

 

It doesn't. It's more common for women in media to outsmart / trick a man than overpower them physically. If you want a female protagonist to overpower 1+ men, you just need her to be

Spoiler: oh god why

myostatin defficient

.

Haha, I saw this post coming. This is kind of... well, the argument should stop there at least. A very specific point is being argued and this information is the point from which the particular argument stems from.

 

It's female because of the long eyelashes, right?

 

Well, now isn't that a generalization!! My girls are certainly NOT everyone! LOL

I never used the words better either. I think you need to get out and talk to more people because I think you will find the opinions on this as varied as the ones here on this thread. Read them..even among the few women here our thoughts on this vary.

Generalizations only hurt your argument. Try again.

 

Im a little bit confused. Are people angry because girls toys are pink, or because the boys toys arent?

 

I haven't met anyone. No one is telling me how to make my characters.

 

Nope, it would be a different game, but not necessarily a better or worse game.

 

Who is angry?

 

I wish I could like this 100 times!!! Yes!

 

Upset then.

It would be a worse game.

 

...?

 

We are..don't you know that? LOL Somehow, gender discussions are supposed to make us angry. I am amused.

 

Yup, could be, isn't that what I said? But it might not be. Should we go back and forth on this a few more times? lol

 

You obviously care about the issue. I dont want to spend all day looking for the exact word you think fits.

 

It would be like the scene in Monty Pythons Holy Grail with the little rabbit that attacks everyone. It wouldn't look right.

 

Any guy claiming that men are physically superior should have to submit a photo of their body, to test the hypothesis. Let's see how well you are living up to your own f̶a̶n̶t̶a̶s̶y̶ "reality".

Does the term Mary Sue sound like a shoe that would fit? LOLOL

 

Archetypes are fabulous..for what they are. But you don't want to always use them. If you do, you get the same reaction one gets when reading many fantasy novels...Hey, that is just like Star Wars, Eragon, the King Arthur Myth, etc.

Use them when you need them but don't be afraid to go off the path. Some great novels, movies and games have done this and have been successful. Our players are smart and we should treat them so. It is true that Archetypes make it easier for non-writers which is why many amateurs use them. Without them, their stories could hurt.

Eventually though, you get to the point when you can be more original.

There is a nice book out there on game storytelling. I would give you the title but it seems I rented it from Amazon and it is no longer on my Kindle. I will look and see if I can find it for you.

Edit: Here is a link to the book. It has a good discussion Archetypes.
http://www.amazon.com/Interactive-S...words=interactive+storytelling+in+video+games

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism

"Females tend to convert more food into fat, while males convert more into muscleand expendable circulating energy reserves. Aggregated data of absolute strength indicates that females have, on average, 40-60% the upper body strength of males, and 70-75% the lower body strength.[66]"

Also I wouldn't say superior at all, I would say different.

 

Only if you make it like that.

 

Did you see my post at the beginning of this thread that explained how females see more colors than males? Ergo females are clearly superior since video games are primarily visual experiences.

If my body fat plays a role in how I play your game I'd LOVE to hear all about it....

 

Im just going to assume you're a troll now. You're the only one here claiming either gender is "superior". And when facts are presented to you you choose to ignore them and make jokes to take attention away from the fact that you dont have a good response.

 

I think you are losing track of your own arguments.

 

Wasn't my claim, dear. Those pesky scientists....

 

Sarcasm..I am sure.

Slinky, I don't care about this issue nearly as much as you do. Honestly. I am probably older than you and my priorities in life are different. I just want you to be more open minded to things you learn and hear. Look at all sources. I did post the link to that book which includes some good stuff. If you can, try to read it.

 

Sounds a little upset and condescending to me. There's no need to assume someone's scope of reading, and then take a jab at someone's intelligence. BUT, I'd just like to say that I don't think anyone here is saying women are dumb. Not one person. Yet it seems to be assumed that's the case by some commenters.

I like women. A lot. A little too much sometimes And I know a few women who are 10 times smarter than me (yes I'm male). That doesn't mean that women are smarter than men in general. But it also doesn't mean that women are dumber than men in general either.

So, I don't get why some women are offended by men, just because they're masculine? That's what I don't get. If someone can explain this to me, then please do.

TLDR: I like women.

 

I said the GAME would be worse, not a gender.

 

why would the game be worse?

 

Because the brutes wouldn't be as menacing. Do you think cortana's character would be just as good if she was a sweaty, hairy man?

 

"Worse" is a subjective term and not everyone would think the game would be worse. Actually, my daughters tell me there are regular women in Halo, female marines. There are women soldiers all over the world and in some countries, women fight along side men and have for many years. Isreal is one example. These are "regular" women who have been well trained. They are not exceptional, not anymore than any other person. They worked hard, learned skills, and now use them effectively.

A female protagonist can be very menacing and in literature and movies you find a lot of them these days.

 

Is Cortana a person or AI? And if so, what is a regular AI? I am confused....

 

For whatever it's worth, I can't imagine living a life where I'm denied the simple human dignity of being left to "live and let live." The most I have to deal with is some casual racism. So you have my deepest sympathies.

But as you said, and as evident from the twists and turns that this discussion has taken so far, the risk of accidentally offending people when dealing with matters of gender is scary high regardless of intentions. And this risk is only amplified with the availability of Righteous Indignation As a Service platforms like Twitter, where voicing grievances as loudly as possible has become the goal rather than the means of addressing said grievances for certain vocal minorities within each minority.

Maybe that's a big part of why most playable characters end up as white heterosexual males. It seems that it's still the safest, least offensive choice.

 

Or that is the target audience. I have played men in DnD games but most of the men I know, complain if they have to play a woman.

But you could be right...too bad.

 

Obviously I know that female soldiers exist in halo and in real life, but what Im saying is that the brute character wouldn't be the same if it was played by a regular female. What you're suggesting is changing the character into something different all together so that it does work with a regular female.

 

There are female Kurdish warriors right now in this actual REALITY timeline. Again, if you are CHOOSING to tell stories that have been told before, great. If you want to do something less cliche, it is not really as though you NEED to invent a cybersuit or mecha armor (but no doubt that is coming)

Let's test this theory. In a game scenario you have 2 options:

Date a sweaty hairy man
Date a sweaty hair woman

Which is "more menacing", in your opinion?

 

What is your point?

 

Wait, are we comparing "brute males" with "regular females".... Is that not an apple/oranges comparison? Would this character be as menacing if he looked like a nebbishy programmer nerd? ...maybe that would be the whole point?

The whole idea of saying a game should be a certain way because reallife is a certain way... doesn't sound like any games I've ever heard of. Let's pick ANY popular game in history. If it has one single untrue-to-life aspect to any of the characters or physics, this whole excuse falls apart.

 

Im not the one who wants realistic female character designs! Im just acknowledging the fact that archetypes exist and thats why some character designs work so well. That's why the brutes are male and cortana is a female.

 

We are all confused..lol.

He is using Cortana, who is a hologram, according to my daughters. I don't play the game so not sure if that is true but my son confirms this. So there is no way Cortana can be a "regular" woman.

I am not sure what a regular woman is. Would a regular man work? Or are they not special enough either. I see any game character as not quite regular, at least the main characters. Isn't that how games and novels and movies work? The main characters are always special in some way, either smarter, stronger, more cunning, or braver than most. Physical appearance aside, any of these work as a threatening or cunning adversary.

 

Ahh, I get it. However, they do not always work well. Read that book!

 

I think you're right lol

 

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

 

So that's what you're after. Perv!

Because if the enemies were female we'd all feel awkward about what the elite mouth is supposed to be.

After all this, I'm surprised you'd be the one telling Cortana what she can and can't be! lol

 

lol

 

Because when a woman disagrees with a man it means she's angry and upset and needs to calm down.

 

That's an assumption you chose. A better word might have been heated... I think? Dont attack me for that one too though.

 

to recap:

evil angry feminists - "all things are possible in a game"
perfectly sane men with no agenda whatsoever "NUH UH!!!!"

 

If everyone is going to ignore what I say and just make up their own versions of what I said, whats the point in a discussion?