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Gamifaction , a new way to learn game design, the book " Why Games Make Us Better"

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by hongwaixuexi, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I read some game design books. Some are high level, and so boring to me. Especially "A theory of fun for game design" is very boring.

    Then I read "Reality Is Broken: Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World". The book isn't intended for game design. While it is interesting. And I read it to learn some game design ideas.

    There are no new ideas on game design books in a decade while Unity and Unreal make a ton of improvements. Gamification is a relatively new concept these years, and maybe a new way to look at game design.

    Using gamifcation to design a game if you can't find a game design method. Do you agree?

    518+t9RNR5L._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
     
  2. Lurking-Ninja

    Lurking-Ninja

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    What? Where? I worked with gamification projects approximately ten years ago (it was hyped back then) and stopped around five...

    Gamification is usually useful when you have a larger number of actors and you need some specific results from the mass you're working with. Game design has usually small number of actors (one maybe two) with a very precise goal in mind (if they do it right), it's not ideal for gamification.
     
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  3. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Gamification begins being used for other apps, not games or educations. In Amazon, many books on gamification are selling well, and they are written in these years. It's a different item 10 years ago.
     
  4. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    There's a logic loop somewhere in there.

    Also... I have never seen an attempt to gamify a non-game-something that has resulted in that something becoming better. (see Lithium)
     
  5. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Have you actually even made a game yet?
     
  6. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Not yet.
     
  7. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Gamification focuses on the few things that make a game interesting and successful.
    While game design talks a lot of things, no focus.
     
  8. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Stop reading things and make a damn game. You are making the rookie mistake of doing loads of research, research that will never end. You need to stop, make a game, even a small one, and identify what your shortcomings are instead of pretending that all this research will remove them.

    You have been doing this for a year.
     
  9. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Making a game is metaphysics. Not important to me. Doing a lot of research is my current work. More preparations won't be wrong.
     
  10. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Making a game is the goal. It is literally what game design is for. It is literally in the name.
     
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  11. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    If you are wrong, I hope you can admit it.

    The goal of the game is 10 times important than tha goal of making a game. Every year there are numerous failed studios, and they made games, and the games failed. The games dominate, not making the game.
     
  12. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    ...How the hell do you think those games come to be? Do you think they spawn out of the ether? Do you think that everyone just sat around reading books for a year before going "time to make this great game?" Do you think these people did not make loads of games before that stage?
     
  13. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    In the post I never say read books and do nothing else. Don't ignore the importance of reading books or other articles. I know a lot of people work hard unitl they find out they are climbing the wrong ladder.
     
  14. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    You haven't even seen the ladder. You don't even know what a ladder looks like. You're pointing at en empty elevator shaft and saying "a ladder will fix this."

    You need to make a game to understand the things that arise specifically while making games. This is literally why a lot of places that teach design require a portfolio and why people don't get hired without portfolios and existing game development experience. The game you are trying to make right now is based on Fallout 3, a game that was made by eighty different people, all with loads of practical experience.

    The only person ignoring things of importance here is you.
     
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  15. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    In this post my topic is how gamifacation is useful for game desgn. Then you said The only person ignoring things of importance here is you. I can't connect your reply with my topic.
     
  16. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Because, like all your other topics, you are exhibiting a profound amount of poor judgment in trying to tie together concepts that you have no practical experience with. You are attempting to engage with things you have no actual understanding of because you insist on learning things in the most backwards way possible.

    There's a reason that the other posts in this thread are people essentially saying "what are you talking about?"
     
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  17. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    If you know nothing about brainstorming, I will think your reply is reasonable.
     
  18. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    You aren't brainstorming because you have no frame of reference to make that mean anything.

     
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  19. Pagi

    Pagi

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    From what we learned in school, gamification is usually defined as putting game elements into other activities, to make them seem more "fun". For example: In some companies workers can get points for extraordinary performance, and then get some items for those points. Because it's cheaper than giving them a raise.
    I disagree with this statement. From my point of view, gamifiaction often makes things worse, when it puts artifical game mechanics where they don't belong.

    And until you design a game, you won't know how it feels to design a game. Until you play said game, you cannot know how it feels to play. You can't understand everything just by theoretizing and looking from the outside.
     
  20. SparrowsNest

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    I agree with @Murgilod, you should be making small games instead of just reading about it, you don't fully understand what they are talking about in the books until you have some experience with it.

    Don't make any of your "dream" games until you feel like you're up for it and then some, you'll get bogged down in tech and creative problems, what I think you fear.

    practice on small "dumb" games to get familiar with the world and understand what you need for your projects better.
     
  21. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Maybe I misunderstand the term "game". I have many practice on small games (or prototype). I already have:
    1. Save system; 2. Dialogue System; 3. GameController System; 4. NPC AI; 5. NPC root motion locomotion system; 6. Inventory System and UI; 7. Weapon System; 8. Car System. and so on....

    When I combine these systems into one game, I need game design. How to embed the story into the game? A lot of hows on game design.





     
  22. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Telling a story is just effective use of communication.

    Read some books about writing. Advertising. Communication.

    But don't wait for enlightenment to come before doing your good deeds. Just come up with some idea and try it. You learn by making mistakes.

    Here's an idea: Before shooting the zombies, insert a text box that explains who you are, where you are trying to go, and what is in the way. THen, gameplay. Then, another text box detailing a new threat that has emerged. Seems impossible to overcome. Then, gameplay. Another text box saying the journey is not over yet, here comes the boss! Then, boss fight.

    Boom, you've inserted story into a game. But text box are dull? So what can you do to improve? How can you replace the text box with something more exciting? Voice acting? No, too expensive. So you look for ways to use the game environment to tell the story for you.

    Be creative. It's art.
     
  23. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It's important to understand that these books aren't aimed at people who think they can be a competent game developer just by reading books. They're aimed at people who have already have experience creating games and want to become a better game developer. Until you have that experience you won't benefit from them.

    It's completely wrong when it comes to game development. You don't become competent by sitting there all day gathering reference material. You become competent by doing. Until you accept this you will just end up creating threads and getting the same responses.

    By the way, just in case you're wondering, it's very obvious that you have zero experience. It shows in every post you make.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  24. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    These books never say you get nothing in reading if you have few experience. How can you get that conclusion?

    Please show me the evidence. I am looking forward to knowing my zero experience.
     
  25. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    These books aren't going to hold your hand so much that they're going to put "only for people who know THIS MUCH" on them. That is not how books work. You'll also notice that university reference books don't typically come with required reading at the front.

     
  26. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    What's going on, and I have no clue in this post.
    So
     
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  27. Gor-Sky

    Gor-Sky

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    Haha I am feeling like you!
    Never mind... i just return into my dark chamber and continue working on my game:cool:
     
  28. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Me too. I got very positive attitude about this.
     
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  29. Gor-Sky

    Gor-Sky

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    I just noticed you are the thread creator!! I thought you were just another person thinking what the hell are they all talking about "gamification" what?! Perhaps I missed something important but I am doing my game without this buzzwords stuff and it works fine:cool: my advice stop reading so much and work on your game.
     
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  30. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    No, I couldn't find right clip for this scenario.
     
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  31. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Booksellers leave the chat.
     
  32. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Yes, let me just show you something you don't understand because you will totally be able to understand it if I do... :p

    We're not booksellers and that's not how a forum works. If you don't want people posting, don't create a thread.
     
  33. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    @Murgilod To be frank, OP has already posted very poorly made games, so poor it doesn't even consider them game after we rip them apart in "constructive criticism", I think he realize he had no frame of reference and is doing what's logical as a next step, understanding what the hell is should be doing and make sense of the random thing he has been doing.

    What I think is that he need "process" something low level enough to step through the basic logic and consideration of making games, no too low level that it's about the engine, and not too hi level where it's about making "great game of your vision". Ie something that break down how to from idea to implementation, step by step.

    Something like that:
    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2848/an_architects_perspective_on_.php?print=1

    @hongwaixuexi
    Read Ernst Adams. That might be the right level for you:


    then
     
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  34. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Thanks. I am planning to read "Game Mechanics", and I think it may be helpful to make a strategy game.
     
  35. neoshaman

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    It's helpful to make anything, not just strategy, but yeah strategy benefit from them.

    Given the snippet of game you showed and your current level, I would also recommend sword and circuitry,

    it's too basic for my taste, but it seems to fit you state of knowledge. And probably look at a concrete example like:
    https://www.guerrilla-games.com/read/horizon-zero-dawn-a-game-design-postmortem
    https://www.guerrilla-games.com/read/balancing-action-and-rpg-in-horizon-zero-dawn-quests
    download the presentation to peek at the note under the slide (especially teh second who don't have a video attached). The note inform you about the process and mindset when creating, teh question pose and teh solution found. Notice in the case of the second presentation, that the person didn't knew everything about (action) game design, and the process he got through to realize his task. Even veteran don' know everything, doing is a way to improve, but only if you know what question to ask, how to analyze the goal and the current result to improve. A key process is iteration through observation and analysis of failure.
     
  36. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Probably best thing to do is figure out what your specific strengths are, develop those, and collaborate with somebody who understands game design a bit more instinctively. I mean these are all great books, but if you are straight up clueless without them, maybe the designing part isn't for you.

    Nothing wrong with that, that's why we humans form teams.
     
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  37. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Thanks.
    I tried it in other forums.
    Not easy.
     
  38. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Nothing worth doing is easy. Stay motivated.


    Best thing you can do is level up your skills in whatever part of the game dev process naturally comes to you, build a body of expert work, and then finding people who want to join forces won't be as difficult.
     
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  39. lenneth4

    lenneth4

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    I agree somewhat
    Reading stuff is important but making games , bad games, fail and coming back is actually better
    And you increase your portfolio

    And sometimes you also re-use your old games idea (yeah yeah ) in your new current game (i do this xd )
     
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  40. Zo_ey

    Zo_ey

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    This is the case in most creative pursuits which require perseverance. You have to both 'do' and read to 'know more'. In fact the best way to learn is to work with a first class team. It's like babies who grow up in an invigorating environment - they just use all their senses to absorb information! Sorry if the metaphor is a tad off, but learning is multi-sensory;especially in game development.