Games for Women

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannnyyway.....

I think a game where the characters have all sorts of secrets and forbidden relationships would be greatly appealing to women, tell me I'm wrong. The player would have to talk with NPCs and find out bits of information and gossip about other NPCs, she could sneak around and gather evidence, blackmail etc. I actually had a game with similar game mechanics in the planning phases, but it wasn't geared towards women.

I know the female Chief I worked under in the military played Morrowind, she liked to design her house in the construction set and she liked the dynamics of the NPC characters (at the time the character disposition system in Morrowind was pretty badass).

 

The thread, if you stand back objectively is like an old married couple, man and wife, arguing with the man sulking and stomping off while the wife glowers in victory. Yes women are very similar to men. More than either gender care to admit.

So what is the REAL issue being disguised as sexism here? is it a power struggle? Are women prepared to put hand on heart and say that the world would be purely equal without sexism if they were able to design it?

It's easy to say things, but the real truth is, sexism doesn't actually exist. Yes it exists in behaviour and evidence, but at a core, low-level, atomic-level study, I would have to say it's just humans taking advantage of humans using whatever tools they can.

Hint: it's called another name when it's the same gender.

 

At a core, low-level, atomic-level study, cheese doesn't exist. It'll still stink up the kitchen if you leave it out too long though.

 

I really like your posts, MarigoldFleur

 

Why does a discussion about sexism have to have a "real" topic disguised within it? Is it physically impossible to discuss sexism?

Does admitting that "designing the world" is pretty hard mean that sexism doesn't exist? I mean, it's hard enough just designing game worlds. I'd guess that designing a fully actualized universe would be pretty difficult.

A word that is literally about sex and gender can't have "another name" that is not about sex or gender. It's like saying "another name for broccoli is vegetable". Broccoli is a type of vegetable, but that doesn't mean that broccoli doesn't exist.

 

I have to agree with you on this one. I think the point he was trying to make was that the root of the problem in our society is jerks using whatever method they can, sexism just being one of many tools, to achieve their goals. The idea that sexist views are the motivation behind this problem of sexism is what doesn't exist, it's actually jerks that are behind this problem of sexism and many other problems. If that makes any sense.

 

Why isn't there more women in this tread ? Why is there so few women in game developments ? Even when (I heard that) there is more woman plying games than man.

 

I'd probably disagree. There aren't really that many humans who are outright mustache-twirling villains bent on evil at any cost. Most of humanity is made up of people who are convinced that they're the good guys, and are completely blind to any of their own faults.

 

Hitler thought he was the good guy... just sayin.

 

Delusional people.

 

To clarify, I was trying to say that I am seeing deeper more fundamental causes for the behaviours we humans exhibit, and sexism is a symptom not a disease. To fix sexism, we need to dig deeper.

 

Yea... but it also seems like you are trying to blame the victims.

You are stepping back from the ones perpetrating the crimes / discrimination and saying "well, aren't we all guilty of this? We as HUMANS, including you women, basically...you are bringing this down upon yourselves."

You are trying to claim the victims are the same as those doing the abuse by trying to redefine who we are speaking about (as humans in general) and women just don't have the chance to carry out the same sexism and abuse they are suffering (so, well, in that light, probably doesn't seem as bad).

If you want to analyse human nature in general, great. But doing so under this specific context is rather irresponsible.

 

The problem is you are projecting onto me when I mean no such thing. I mean exactly what I said: I believe sexism would be called something else but essentially be the same issue if it was a company full of gay men, or other potential grounds for exhibiting this behaviour.

Essentially, how sexism develops is only called sexism if you are of a different sex. It is my belief that sexism also exists for same-sex, and hence has an underlying root cause.

To clarify further, so no mistake can be made: I am saying the behaviour of sexism exists, but it is not limited to male-female encounters, and therefore a further and deeper study is merited.

 

Right, clearly no one in the entire world has ever thought to do any kind of further or deeper study. The centuries of research, thousands of books, university courses around the world, and people who have dedicated their entire lives to this cause never could have come up with something as insightful as "deeper study". I guess you're right; clearly, no one has ever put the slightest thought into any of this history of the human race nonsense; I guess we should all just give up and wait around until someone out there decides to start looking into it.

 

Sarcasm aside, if you look up the definition of sexism, you will see it CAN apply to men as well, though it is USUALLY used in the context of the oppression of women. Also, women can hold sexist views of women, and men can hold sexist views about men. Various other genders can hold sexist views of yet other genders. It is still defined as a bigotry centered around sex and gender, though. If your main complaint is that linguistically you want men to have their own special word specifically about sexism towards men, I'm sure you can find one with a little googling. I'm ranting a bit, but I think the thing that annoys be about your post is exactly what IvoryOasis alluded to; it's like you're trying to use some kind of linguistic loophole to distance yourself from any sort of responsibility or acceptance of what the world is actually like. Sort of like seeing a KKK mob lynch a black family and then saying "Oh well, I once saw someone make fun of Justin Bieber, and really this is more or less the same exact thing. So let's not worry about this, come on KKK, let's get cupcakes!"

 

Looks like you're good at projecting too.

 

Looks like you have fallen into the pit I just crawled out of. Good luck having a reasonable argument with these people. Nobody seems to give a damn about the OT here.

 

Then what is the purpose of trying to prove that sexism does not exist?

 

Uuuuuhhhh no?

That actually isn't the definition of sexism....... men can be sexist to men. Women can be sexist towards women. Men to women, women to men.

I've been subject to all of the various forms actually. Man to woman, woman to man, man to man, woman to woman.

 

WTF? How was he saying that? Are women flawless and incapable of sexism? No! (Just look at this thread.) All hippo was saying is that people's views of one another is screwed up and that sexism is one of many results of that. And yes, it applies to everyone. That doesn't mean he's "blaming the victims."

 

His post wasn't about the OT either; I don't think it's "unreasonable" to respond to it.

Anyway, back to explaining why subatomic physics means that cheese, broccoli and sexism don't exist yet somehow humans, video games, and the Oxford Comma do exist.

 

Well, we have two other people plus hippo all claiming to know what hippo meant but none of them agree with what he actually said.

 

Back! Back! Stay Back! *waves flaming torch* Oh god what is wrong with these people? "His post wasn't OT either!? Of course it wasn't... I thought I said "Nobody seems to give a damn about the OT here." I have to get out of here before they drive me insane!

 

get back here! I'm not through with you yet!

 

I'm sorry, the user you are looking for in in another castle.

 

Here is my personal outlook on this last bit: There's only one situation where it's ok to walk up to someone and tell them that all of their past experiences and problems literally don't exist. And that's when you are trying to rescue them from an evil alien mind control device that has replaced their memories with an artificial past. Otherwise, it's a bit rude.

 

I agree, that was more or less my point. Though he may have twirled his mustache. I guess it was a little short for twirling though.

Racists generally are actual racists, just like sexists generally are actual sexists. They're not secret free-thinking believers in equality who are pretending to be close-minded bigots to try and get rich quick. There are a few people like that, but very few compared to most of the world.

 

It is about context ~_~

If you are in a conversation with someone and they ask you if they are fat.... and you reply 'You know, in general, america is rather obese. Rates of obesity have been increasing at a dramatic rate".... your statement is taken within the context of the conversation and the implications of choosing to discuss the greater issues of obesity is applied to the previous statements.

Yup, a discussion about human nature in general would be great. Bringing it up right now, as we are talking about the abuse and horrible sexism towards women? In this context, it is clearly an attempt to redefine the argument and "share blame" as something "aren't we all guilty of? as humanssss?" (basically, blaming the victim for their own oppression).

Don't insult our intelligence by saying "oh but this has nothing to do with each other!!!! I was just speaking randomly for no reason! teehee, durrr".

 

I was going to post this a while back, but when I got around to it, the conversation had gone a different direction. Since it appears to coming back to the women and the game industry, I'll throw in my two cents.

While I certainly agree that lack of encouragement (or in the cases you mentioned, active discouragement) occurs and is wrong, there is some historical context to the larger percentage of males in the industry that isn't an issue of sexism or discouragement.

This "industry", is not very old. As video games first started coming about, they were created by people who driven by curiosity and interest in that sort of thing, not as potential (or possible) career. They were mostly male. (natural or social proclivities or whatever the case may be). At that time home computers (and games specifically) were toys. I was actively discouraged from spending too much time at it well, because it was a waste of time. As the first companies grew they drew on people who were all basically self taught and had an existing interest, turning avocation into vocation. Even then there were only handful of jobs around the nation. There wasn't a way to learn these formally, or a career path at that time. I believe the inequity began because that the original pool of resources were obsessive, impractical dorks who liked playing with shiny things that beeped. Unsurprisingly, they were mostly male.

Today, it isn't hard to find stories of women having a hard time within the industry. It is also easy to see how that can happen. Most workplaces in the game industry (and a lot of the tech industry as well) are... well.. different than traditional workplaces. Many start out as small groups of people working together. Looser structure, less formal atmosphere, etc. And often that culture is carried over as companies grow. Well, it isn't hard to see that type of setting being, at best, un-accepting of people outside their perceived group (typically young males). It isn't an excuse or justification, just context. They should be taken to task for that kind of behavior. A relaxed and informal setting should not be a hostile one.

But it is important to understand that while these do happen, that landscape is evolving, and doing so very rapidly. (like anything related to tech tends to do). I have been fortunate enough to work in fairly forward thinking tech companies and game companies comprised largely of good people. (though much of the print publishing industry I worked in was crass and sexist). Where I work now, it is pretty much even gender-wise in virtually every area (engineering is still male heavy, but even that is shifting). In some cases there are more women. For instance my last project was mostly women in the game design and producer roles and generally equal in art and visual design. It was a flagship product and a massive hit, everyone was there simply because of abilities. Granted, I work in the mobile and social/causal space, which is different than core games, but that is certainly a large (and growing) part of industry. It's not hard to find women in many and key roles across that space. Sexism and hostile environments do exist, but not the norm.

There are several "women in gaming" type organizations, a few of the big ones are (or have been) run by fiends/colleagues of mine. They are great not only as an advocacy org, but also great for networking and finding opportunities. There are definitely opportunities for people with skills regardless of gender/race/orientation/eccentricity in the industry. And, just as people are different, so are the studios and work places that make up the professional side of the industry.

 

And yet, I can think of more established women in design in the games industry from 15+ years ago than I can modern ones. Roberta Williams, Brenda Brathwaite, Danielle Bunten, Jane Jensen, Dona Bailey... Yet now? Off the top of my head, working in the larger parts of the industry? Kim Swift.

Yeah.

Kim Swift.

The industry has always been male heavy, yes, but it's actually getting on the worse side. It's getting worse and it's starting to become clear why.

 

Are you familiar with the term, self-victimization?

No one was speaking to you directly. The conversation is about the situation of society as a whole.

 

Yes, I'm speaking about society as a whole as well. I don't consider myself female. In this discussion of society as a whole (specifically women and sexism) to try and say "it is all humans" is... well... as I said, an attempt to redefine the argument and "share blame".

 

There are girls that want to make games and I've met a few of them and they're also studying to do it. But one thing I do find and that is females get too much attention in games and I can see why they'd be put off working in games and even playing games. I get the same attention and it's usually the same type of attention too. It doesn't only happen to females, let's not forget that. Did this stop me? Nope. I guess it's because I'm a man heh?

 

I'm not sure what gives you the right to pick apart what someone has said in good faith and put words into my mouth, frankly. It's just ignorant.

 

Let me try an example. Let's say you're in a thread about DX11 Tesselation Shaders, with a bunch of people talking about how to code them. Then someone comes in and says "You fools, video games don't even exist!!!! We're all just quantum fluctuations in the endless void of infinity!!! What is the REAL conversation behind these so-called tesselation shaders?! I say it's all just a meditation on the human condition!"

Would this person really be adding anything useful to your discussion of tesselation shaders? Would you think they were actually concerned in any way whatsoever with learning about tesselation shaders? Or, are they perhaps, just trying to dismiss the entire conversation and make tesselation shaders seem unimportant and meaningless compared to their concerns? Or maybe just trolling? I'm almost positive that if someone posted something like that in a thread about tesselation shaders, there would be a resounding "GTFO" from pretty much everyone else in the thread.

 

Clearly I cannot comment what is on the top your head or your perceptions. Sure, if you google famous women in the industry those names will always show up because, like their male counterparts of the era, they were pioneers in a small industry. Today there are 100s of thousands of people making games professionally. Most folks would be hard pressed to name off the top of their head a dozen top male designers.

But yes, absolutely there are more men in the professional industry. Is it getting "worse"? No. Opportunities for women constantly growing (as is the industry). There are many women owned companies, women in leadership roles in large companies. More importantly the industry is growing beyond the talent pool in general, so not only is sexism crappy in and of itself, it is also a bad business move. I have watched female friends of mine in the industry progress into leading roles and even start their own companies (heh, I have one friend who started a company to make games for women and didn't do so well because she was serious core gamer, and the games they made, were... well if made by a man would have been called condescending). I have seen our company rise from a startup with a very few women several years ago, to a leader in mobile with hundreds of women in all roles and levels. Not only that but is common all across the valley.

I don't see "equality" as hitting some percentage or number, they may never an equal amount, or it may sway the other direction entirely given the player base. Either way it's irrelevant. The important part is that people aren't limited by things like gender or race or anything else that isn't job relevant.

Sorry, but It is frustrating to hear people complain about lack of opportunities, (male,female or other) in the professional game industry. The amount of jobs available is crazy and it is difficult to find skilled staff. (at least in the bay area/silicon valley).

I am in no way dismissing or minimizing situations or that may have happend to women (or anyone for that matter), those things are wrong and more than likely illegal. But painting the industry as whole as a misogynistic, sexist boys-only club, is not only wildly inaccurate, but actually reduces opportunities for women by discouraging them from even trying.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/women2/2013/03/29/12-women-in-gaming-to-watch-entrepreneurs-edition/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesw...women-and-video-gamings-dirty-little-secrets/
http://www.edge-online.com/features/game-industrys-100-most-influential-women/

Of course, I am talking about the professional side of the industry. Not so much of a concern on the indie side.

 

Ok, I think this has gone on long enough even after the OP admitted it was a deliberate post.