Games for Women

Actually, you specifically told us "your philosophy", and said that people should not complain about gender issues; that anyone who claims to see sexism in any game is actually just insane, and that the sane thing to do is to simply not play the game and avoid talking of it ever again. You then later commanded women not to "bitch" about misogyny in games. You also told them to "stop looking for crap to complain about", and that they need to stop complaining about things they were "oppressed by", in sarcasm quotes, implying that you don't think they're actually oppressed by anything.

 

Please, feel free to use the little quote button to actually point out my statements. Cuz I believe you're seeing what you want to see, not what's actually there.

 

You don't give a crap because *gasp* you don't have to live with the implications of these things every day! You don't have to deal with a 30% wage gap in your field of study! You don't have to look at games and realise that many of them don't even have female characters at all and when they do, they're usually borderline hostile in how they're presented! You don't have to deal with the constant fear of sexual assault in a society that preaches "don't get raped" to women more than it does "don't rape" to men!

You are completely and utterly divorced from these issues and choose to speak out against them even though you can't even begin to comprehend them.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT SEX. IT IS ABOUT THE OVERWHELMING REPRESENTATION OF AN ENTIRE GENDER AS BEING COMPLETELY PASSIVE OR LITTLE MORE THAN SEX OBJECTS THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME. You can EASILY replace Peach with a baked potato because Peach is little more than a repackaged goalpost.

 

To say that a male being thrown into a war is acting on his own volition is really highlighting the belief that males are disposable.

Men want to go to war only because society tells them that is how they get social approval and sex. No man wants to go run into the greatest hell on earth just because he's a man. No man wants to be a disposable pawn in a war. Men are told that is how they prove themselves as a human being worth living, this is what culture has ingrained in mens minds for centuries, this is the stereotype much of media still enforces. And to the point where you actually think thats what men want to do on their own 'volition'? You want to decry negative feminine gender stereotypes but appear completely brainwashed by negative male gender stereotypes.

And pretty sure the definition of objectify is simpler than you want to make it...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/objectify

 

LOL, what? Women live in "constant fear of sexual assault"? I think you either have a very paranoid view of the world, or you live in one of the crappiest neighborhoods in the world.

 

I don't know the full motives of kanstruct and khyrid.

But I am only trying to maintain an egalitarian viewpoint on the subject.

 

Sigh.... I hate when people make me repost their own posts. Jeez. Ok, here goes:

Actually, you specifically told us "your philosophy",

and said that people should not complain about gender issues;

that anyone who claims to see sexism in any game is actually just insane,

and that the sane thing to do is to simply not play the game and avoid talking of it ever again.

You then later commanded women not to "bitch" about misogyny in games.

You also told them to "stop looking for crap to complain about",

and that they need to stop complaining about things they were "oppressed by", in sarcasm quotes, implying that you don't think they're actually oppressed by anything.

 

Or you literally do not understand what rape culture is and why women have to do things like keep careful track of their drinks at bars and make sure they never go outside at night. But cool, thanks for proving my point.

http://www.wavaw.ca/mythbusting/statistics/

Yeah, so good job with that one!

 

How adorable to paste statements out of context. Wasn't it you claiming that "we" were trying to "misdirect" people?

 

I go out quite a bit. I have a lot of female friends that go out quite a bit. Guess what? None of them have been raped!

I know! They must be some of the luckiest women in the world! How could they possibly have dodged that bullet for so long?

 

So you're being dismissive even though I posted the full statements and then linked you to the article which included multiple citations. Which means, once again you're being dismissive of issues and outright refusing any evidence brought forth that explains them in greater detail. And good job being even more dismissive with that "adorable" thing.

"Well you see, I have black friends..."

And considering how sexual assault rates can get as high as 1 in 4 women and how most of them go unreported to the police but instead are handled through crisis centres? Maybe they have been!

 

So this thread has gone from

"How do we make games more interesting to women?"

to

"Video game gender stereotyping only negatively affects women"

to

"Women are getting raped do something!"

I think I shall retire.

 

Wow... so you're seriously telling me you can't remember the context of a conversation you yourself posted yesterday, in a thread, where the context of the discussion is posted at the top of your screen, and where you can simply click one of those little numbers at the bottom to go back and re-read what you posted, and you are relying on me to copy and paste that paragraph again, with me explaining the context of the entire discussion which you're having right now? That sounds like severe short-term memory problems; how do you write code?! Or, maybe, you're just purposefully being obtuse and hoping that I'll get tired of copy-pasting.

 

Done.

 

Are you absolutely sure of that? Keep in mind most of them aren't going to tell you, especially since it sounds like you wouldn't believe them if they did. 1 in 5 women in the U.S. have been raped. If you have more than 5 female friends, there's a good chance that one of them has been.

 

You're using anecdotes while completely ignoring actual statistical evidence and dismissing rape culture out of hand because "NONE OF MY FEMALE FRIENDS WERE RAPED". Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

 

No. Genius. I was saying that, if you're going to quote me, you should probably quote the related statements around those comments... that's what context is. You also read implications into my statements that weren't even there.

For example. This:

Does not mean this:

 

Since the "context" would probably be the first part of that sentence, which I did quote, where you literally say that anyone who thinks something in a game is sexist has severe psychological problems, and that it's literally a "B" following an "A" in a two-part sentence, which is literally you describing your philosophy, then yes, the context of "A) You're insane, B) Don't play it" implies that the proper behavior of a non-insane person is to simply not play it instead of complaining.

 

Yes... I sound ridiculous.

I'm an anecdotal guy. Once again, I have no need or desire to convince you of anything. I'm also not dumb enough to believe I would change your opinion (least of all, on an internet forum). You think women are being oppressed by video games. Super cool. Have fun with that.

I disagree. People can do that. You can rant all you want. I don't care. This sinking in yet? I'm not oppressing you or anyone else. Do what ya like.

 

Also, I'm aware that if I had quoted the whole paragraph, you would have said "BUT WHERE DID I SAY ANY OF THOSE THINGS", which would mean I'd have to break it up into lines, and figured that if I broke it up into lines, you'd say "BUT NOW PASTE THE WHOLE PARAGRAPH", because those are things I've done when I was trolling people too.

 

You're an anecdotal guy denying the effects of rape culture and sexism in general even when presented with actual evidence from actual studies. You're absolutely exhibiting oppressive behaviour because you completely deny any actual sexism even when evidence is provided. You're not "disagreeing." You're "wrong."

 

Not agreeing with you, is not oppression.
It's called having an opinion.
Not caring about your opinion, is not oppression.
It's called indifference.
And you are free to think I'm wrong. More power to ya. Just as I am free to think you're wrong. See how that works?

 

You don't have an opinion. You were presented with facts that directly oppose your anecdotes. You are wrong. You are disagreeing with objective facts and refusing to acknowledge them even when presented with easily verifiable real-world evidence and studies.

 

"a bunch of male characters in games acting of their own volition and context"

"male characters in games acting of their own volition"

"acting of their own volition"

But... according to you, Mario was not being objectified because he was an extension of the player. But if it's an expendable male peon, then they have their own volition. How convenient. How do we know that these male peons have their own volition? How do we know they weren't brainwashed, infused with drugs, infected with a virus or threatened to do the bidding of their masters? <--BTW, as is often the case in games.

Maybe social pressures taught these peons that as a man it's their duty to go fight and die, reenforcing that stereotype in real life. Nobody plays Mario and then decides that in real life women are useless, such a person would have to be brain dead to think that way, but look at a game like America's Army and tell me that no young and impressionable boys ever found inspiration to join up from that.

You are special pleading. As a supporter of true feminism, I hope women's right will prevail in spite of chauvinistic people and fanatical pseudo-feminist like you.

 

And you are free to believe that.

 

Because it is more often than not NOT the case and not only that, but it doesn't happen to nearly the same extent that it does women.

So now you're making up entirely new narratives in the hope that it will prove your point. And America's Army was a RECRUITMENT TOOL. What did you expect it to do?

 

Oooh, classic internet move; both pretending to not care about anything you just said, and take the superior position that your arguing wasn't actually an argument at all. Also a bit of "freedom of speech" blather to try and make it seem like a bunch of nonsense has some mystical power against being proved wrong. It's a combination of "Winning by Losing" and "First Amendment Reinterpretation", after giving up on "The Backtrack".

http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/

I declare by the shadow proclamation of the internet that MarigoldFleur has officially won this internet argument.

 

Wrong. Everything you say is a flat out lie. I'm now convinced that you don't care about the truth or women's rights. All you care about is being perceived as morally superior. I can't take anything you say on this subject seriously anymore.

Yes is was a recruitment tool, that was my point! They realized that boys like to play shooters and saw a connection between that and getting them to be in the military in real life and it worked. I wasn't using that example for the whole game industry I was using as an example of a red flag.

BTW, nice job derailing this thread. It's about how to encourage females to play video games. All you had to say was that you think a female character should be in such a game that has agency to her. There, done, no need for a long fruitless debate.

As for you, he was saying that he doesn't accept his evidence and by not accepting it that doesn't make him guilty. The problem with your analysis of his argument technique is that he had an actual point to back himself up.

 

Congrats. I'm actually just content with the fact that you and Marigold have done more than enough to make yourselves look foolish in this thread. Therefore, I don't need to continue repeating myself. If I were trying to subvert or dodge anything, I would remove or alter my posts. I'm not. People can come here, read the conversation and decide for themselves. I'm perfectly happy with that.

Believe it or not, I actually have other things to do... like make video games. *gasp*

 

Ooh, and there's a picture perfect Pity Riposte! Brilliant, brilliant! I could kiss you.

 

Except I DID say that. I've said that multiple times in multiple ways.

But yeah, thanks for calling me a liar when what I've done is actually point out problems and ways to identify them for yourself! You know, instead of trying those things.

 

I didn't say you didn't say those things, I said all you had to say was those things and leave it at that.

However, I will admit that in inserting my point of view as to what games really need to be to attract female gamers I challenged your opinion on the matter. Actually I suggested that the way a game is played is more important than the genders in the game. From there this became an endless argument about sexism and equal rights. So I will admit some fault for this derailment of the OT.

There is no reason why we can't agree to disagree on the finer points and just move on.

So far we have:
-Make the game designed around female interest.
-Have female characters that aren't just objects.
-Next?

Can we stay on topic?

 

Lol why does this remind me of religious people who claim they are being persecuted because people want to get rid of religious based laws that actively disenfranchise minorities?

"You want to take the bible out of schools?! Stop persecuting my belief!".

If you call a man who is being sexist, sexist.... that isn't sexism ~_~

 

Wow... again.... wow.... you are completely removed from reality. Like, not even close to this world...you just have absolutely no sense of the lives of people other than you.

Yea, constant fear of sexual assault is pretty normal. Oh wait, but that isn't something you ever had to think about , so, it doesn't exist

 

I would say the obvious way to discover what a target demographic wants in a game is to ask them. Then make a prototype, and do focus tests with that demographic, and implement their suggestions. Of course, that's a rather boring and obvious answer. Most people would say that you should ignore the focus tests, assume you know better than they do what they really want, and then insist that they should want it even if they say they don't want it. That's the key to good video game marketing.

 

They weren't calling me a sexist. They were saying "men want to shut women up" and "whites want to shut minorities up". That's not a personal opinion of an individual, its a generalization of an entire group. That is, in fact, the very essence of sexism and racism.

I would say that someone who "lives in fear", assuming people are just waiting to jump out and rape them are a bit more self-centered than I am. And there we go again, extending my statements out into nonsense. I didn't say "it doesn't exist". I'm quite aware that people get raped. I just think that "living in constant fear" of it is paranoid.

But, as Khyrid said, let's try to steer things back on topic.

 

Focus testing is why companies keep releasing halo and call of duty sequels. Focus testing doesn't come up with minecraft.

If it were as easy as just taking a poll and making what people asked for, well, AAA titles would never fail and always just be hitting it out of the park.

Basically, it is saying that a man in a suit with lots of data can make a better game than a gamer who "feels" and "knows" what is fun .

 

Kinda. But really, its just that a man in a suit with lots of data can more consistently make profitable games. The sad truth is, most people DO, in fact, just want more CoD and Halo. People pay for familiarity. They usually won't branch out unless someone else does first (which is how Facebook games expanded so quickly). "Your friends are doing it, so its ok now."

 

The average person is not a game designer so they probably wouldnt know what they want, just like you wouldnt want the average joe to come up with new recipes you want a master chef.

 

There's a pretty appropriate saying somebody passed on to me about this. It goes something like "In 1975 when Jaws came out, whenever studios were asking focus groups what kind of movies they wanted, they'd always say 'I want a shark movie! Like Jaws!'. So numerous attempts to cash in on the Jaws popularity were made, but none of them really stuck. Finally, two years later, it turns out what people really wanted to see was Star Wars, which proceeded to smash nearly every box office record."

 

Yup, tell me about it. I know exactly what male privilege is. I was very strong, young, and no one would dare touch me (let alone look at me strange). Rape? Sexual assault? Haha, it was a laughable idea in my old body.... and, of course, the idea that a guy is going to sexually assault another guy? Meh, nope. Worse is I could get mugged and they take my wallet ~shrug~

Oh, but then I changed. I started looking more feminine. And that male shield kind of vanished. I won't go into my own experiences, but yes, now I'm a lot more careful and I started to learn about personal safety.

I never really talked to girls about the subject before. But once I started having issues, I started to learn they carry pepper spray, knives, they watch their drinks, be careful when walking back to your car at night, stay in groups, meet dates in public places....basically, you need to be careful and always watching out.

You really have absolutely no concept of the society you live in. You have your male privilege, you don't really understand what that means of course... it is something you have always had (like I did).

Haha, but worse, you seem to be completely resistant to even considering / seeing the world outside of your little bubble. I'm telling you, as a person who has LIVED both, you are wrong. Deny it all you like, there are countless others like you who will Because your mind can't grasp anything outside of your own experiences.

 

But Halo and CoD were focus tested on teenage males, since that was one of their primary demographics, and they did sell well to teenage males. If you want to sell a game primarily to young American women, it would be wise to focus test with them. In my experience at least, it helps more than it hurts. Of course, this assumes that your only goal is to make a decent profit from one particular demographic.

I agree it's not enough on its own, but it's one thing that can help. Especially if a development team has almost no representation from that demographic. At least it's generally shown better results than trying to get opinions on an internet message board.

 

Yeah, some good points here. It would seem as simple as just asking women what they would like in a game, but most don't play games to begin with and have no bases for an answer. I think the key for inquiring about this is to ask what women like in general, what their hobbies are and what motivates them and then try to extrapolate that into a game.

 

Ivory, I'm interested to know where you live and what kind of groups you hang around with and what the culture is like to have experiences like that.

I'm a guy, yes, but none of the girls I know live in such fear. Perhaps it's because I'm in a nicer part of the world, perhaps it's that the girls I know don't hang around in the less safe parts of town (by which I mean, there certainly are areas where they would feel unsafe), perhaps it's the local culture, perhaps it's a lot of things... but suggesting that all women live in such fear is as much of a generalisation as saying the opposite.

 

Or maybe it's because there's a culture of fear that surrounds talking about these issues in the first place. It's a large part of the reasons why workplace harassment and sexual assault goes unreported. The culture surrounding rape carries a very much "don't get raped" attitude that forces a LOT of blame on the victims. Questions like "what was she wearing?" and "why were you in that part of town at that time anyway?" and "were you leading him on?" come up ALL the time. It becomes less an issue of "who raped you?" and more "why did you get raped?"

 

I have lived in NY, PA, FL, AZ, WA, VA, NC and other places and it has always been my understanding that if somebody said something like "why did you get raped" to a women that would be asking to get punched in the face. If that same thing was asked towards a man it would probably insight laughter from everyone.

But this is an ugly topic and not suited to this thread or forum. Maybe a new thread on a different forum can be made for this rape topic.

 

Tell that to the police who asked it. Try telling that to the multiple news outlets who mourned the futures of the Stubenville rapists because they were going to have a criminal record instead of saying anything about the trauma of the victim or how she had been receiving death threats from complete strangers after going to the police.

 

I was a guy and none of the girls I knew lived in such fear either At least...that is what I thought. They never talked about it with me. Later found out they actually do.

It isn't a soul shattering terrible fear of moving. You learn to live with it. You learn to just watch yourself. Women aren't huddled into corners with butcher knives stabbing at everything that moves because they are terrified of this.... but they know it is a constant danger and one they need to be careful of (and prepared for).

Haha this isn't isolated to "the bad crowd" (I hang out with professionals in their mid 20's to early 30's. Digital artists, makeup artists, models, actors, nurses...stuff like that). I'm in LA, but was living in Kansas before that (and it was the same story in kansas, actually after I transitioned, my own sister finally started talking to me about personal safety and her worries...and we are extremely close, she had never talked about it before.).

 

Yeah, I heard about that and the whole thing disgust me. I also noticed a lot of that blame the victim attitude coming from religious origins. But there is a weird paradox at least from my perspective, I have never met anyone that would blame a rape victim for being raped, I only hear about such things from news stories. Is it possible that the majority of rapist are sentenced and no news stories are made popular about them?

God, this thread is more out of control than the "lets design a game thread".

 

I had a friend whos buddies filmed them raping a woman after she passed out. She didn't know about it, but they were showing him the video (from washington). He was struggling with if he should tell the girl or not for a while (since, well, what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her right?). He finally did the right thing and told her...and his friends are mad at HIM.

I think you would be pretty hard pressed to find any woman over 16 who wasn't careful? This is something they have drilled into their heads pretty early on (that they need to stay safe). Something I had never been told, which is why I make stupid mistakes.