Game Design - that punishes the player (Ori & Blind Forest Example)

Sometimes I'm really confused about game design that purposefully punishes the player - for no reason.
Understand I'm not talking about Hard games, which I really enjoy - when I go into the experience knowing this game is brutal.

As an example - For all the well deserved praise Ori gets for its beautiful art and story - some of the design in Ori is marginal at best.
One thing I noticed early was the double jump and wall crawl. These two mechanics when dealing with skinny ledges - tend to be a hindrance to successfully platforming the level - instead of helping the player successfully maneuver on these numerous vertical hanging platform elements. It's really frustrating to have a character twirl 3-4 times the distance you want him to - when you hit the jump button at the top of a ledge. Even after hours of play using these mechanics - in this particular situation - having a skinny platform to land onto - and only being able to reach the platform by wall climbing and then jumping onto the top of the skinny platform is 50/50 chance the player will accidentally hit the double jump causing the character to overshoot the skinny platform by 4 lengths. This is because the wall climb and the jump button are controlled by the same button - and if the character gets to the top of the ledge and the player hits the button one extra time, Ori flies completely over the ledge and falls down - usually onto an area that is deadly. Grrr!

But this isn't the worst offense I've experienced in this game so far.

The worst (so far) is the (expletive expletive) level with the water filling up. I'm not going to ruin it for anybody who hasn't played the game yet.
Suffice to say this level has a catch up mechanic on water that is basically chasing the character. And it kills the character if the player makes ONE mistake - over a lengthy level that requires perfect platforming.
I can understand wanting to have suspense on the level - oh crap the water is filling up and if it gets me I die. So - it's only assumed the player will die a couple times on this level - having to learn how to maneuver through the level. So the player dies a couple times - but gets better with knowing how to get through the level - BUT it doesn't matter how good you get at working your way through the first part of the level - or how good you are at getting half way through the level - OR even if you are able to get 3/4 of the way through the level flawlessly.
The water is designed to always be right under the characters feet - so no matter how good you are - all you have to do is mess up ONE time through the entire level - and you die and have to start the level all over again.
In my personal opinion - this is TERRIBLE game design!!
I don't know why a team that was able to put together such a beautiful looking game with such a great story - made some of the most ODD weird - bad game design decisions - in any of the games I've played in the past 3 years.

Maybe they ran out of time to fine tune the jump/wall crawl/double jump mechanic - which is super unfortunate because this is the MOST used mechanic in the game.
But the water level - IDK - its not good - it's nearly bad enough to make me stop playing - and I'm a gamer who will grudgingly trudge through games just to see the ending - if they are good.

I guess my expectations were set a bit to high with the visuals and story - I guess we can't expect that same level of AWESOME to be delivered throughout every facet of a game.
I really hope there isn't any more TERRIBLE level design decisions beyond this one.
If so - I might be finishing this game - with a letsplayer instead of actually finishing it.

Anybody else have a similar feeling about this level - or anything else with Ori? Or opposing views about the level design?

 

I definitely had issues with the controls at times. Specifically: trying to transition from hanging on the sides of the skinny hanging platforms to jumping in top of them where I almost always jump over them and end up grabbing onto the other side, the gliding sections where the lightest downward push on the stick is enough to send you plummeting to your death, the section where you have to guide a projectile through the level while platforming upward and at the very top there is a grapple point that swings slightly and if you jump toward it at the wrong moment you have to start over. A few irritating bits here and there, but overall solid enough to get the job done.

The chase sequences seem be the most divisive part of the game. Some players love them as a test of your overall mastery of the mechanics you've learned up to that point (and they are the game's bosses). Others hate the trial and error and absolute precision required. Their brutal nature does shine a light on what doesn't work so good control wise.

I ended up somewhere in the middle. I would get frustrated, but just before the point of wanting to put the game down, I'd get through somehow. Subjective for sure, and they probably should have let you make a mistake or two and still pass.

Unless you're a platforming super freak, there's not much chance beating those sequences on your first (or second, or third) try, so it basically comes down to memorization and hoping the controls work with you. And often the graphic spectacle works against you you're trying to figure out what to do or which direction to go while the screen is full moving glowing things.
The thing is though, after beating the game some months ago, the frustrating parts (and finally getting past them) are what I can remember in detail...they are what keeps the game from sliding into the same mental sludge pile as other forgotten experiences, games that were fun enough but provided no real challenge.

I think that's a hard thing to balance: how hard is too hard? How do you challenge the player but not overwhelm them? I think they did ok in that regard.

I think where the game really succeeded is in some of the puzzles, where the mechanics used are simple but not readily apparent. It's really an awesome moment when your brain clicks and you figure it out.

 

I have not played this. But by your description it sounds like they haven't polished movement mechanics much and concentrated on art. Also, the description reminds me of Blood Rayne 2d game, which hada very annoying sluggish and imprecise controls/elements BUT it was a full platformer.

Do you remember games like Contra series? You had 3 lives (without a cheat code), and died in one hit. Would you classify that as a "bad design" or as a "hard" game?

 

Because gamedesign and painting have almost nothing in common, as I'm sure you are aware. Afaik the game was functionally finished before they even started outsourcing the final art for it.

I've played 40+ hours of Dark Souls, so I feel like I'm not one to give up super quick, but I couldn't bring myself to play Ori for more than ~2 hours, because I'm not having fun with it. I'm sure I could beat it if I try long enough, but the game just isn't fun to me. I'm not a fan of plattformers in general though, so I'm most likely in the minority not liking the game.

I think the lesson to learn from Ori is that it's smart to invest in good artwork, artdirection, music and narrative.

 

I found Ori to be a good game. I agree that the chase sequences left very little to chance. Indeed, I 'died' more times on just those two events than the rest of the game combined. Without revealing too much to those who have not yet played (like the OP), the water one was hard, but I eventually managed it in the same sitting. The FIRE one was so frustrating it took several days before I managed to do it. I`m a stubborn one and refused to give up...especially with such a compelling story and amazing artwork.

It was especially hard, because these chase sequences were the only examples of such sequences in the entire game, where speed was critical and even one mistake forced you to redo the entire thing. The mechanic for the rest of the game was a much slower and measured pace which allowed mistakes. Up until this point in the game, you had the option to fail and try again but suddenly, you had to do everything perfectly.

I think that is what gets me... when the play style shifts into a radically different one. Casting back into the mists of time, a classic example would be Myth on the C64. 98% of the game is an action/puzzle platformer and I loved it.. and the last 5 minutes are an utterly frenzied shoot em up and I hated it. No reason for it I can remember, did not make sense in terms of story.

I guess it is hard to strike a balance, you have to include a varied element to prevent game play from getting stale, but not too much to alienate your player.

 

Really I agree - except for the fact of the catch up mechanic on the water is what is really frustrating. The sequence alone has a suspenseful feel to it - and the visuals are outstandingly 'over the top' awesome - but the catch up mechanic seems to be - extra punishing - one mistake and you die. It seems like a player would (I feel this) doesn't get any satisfaction from this one specific sequence by having a mastery of the platforming controls. Personally I think the section you described where you have to redirect the missile was a damn hard part - but after succeeding that - any player has mastery of the new dash mechanic.
With the catch up design on the water - it's only punishing to NOT be absolutely perfect in this one section only (and maybe a couple more). It just seems punishing to have the catch up and not give the player props for being faster through the level than the water which could be as a linear 'fill'. By beating the water to the top on the third or fourth time through - imo the player has proved enough mastery to, and would feel more accomplishment. "HA! I beat you Water! That just seems to make a bit more design sense to me than - the water catching up and one wrong move and start over.

^^vv<><>ba(select)start - ftw!
Loved that game. - and thank you Nintendo Power!

I'm just as stubborn and determined. But since I've been studying as much design stuff I can get my hands on for over 2 years now - I really thought this was good topic and was thinking what I was going to write as I continued to fail that dang level. I might have been distracted by this thought. Yeah that's why I couldn't beat it.
All ya'lls insight has been really awesome.
I can't wait until someone is dissing my own design decisions - because they like the game so much.
Special Note - I hold Ori up pretty high (Near Gold Star Standard) because I'm a sucker for Ultra Beautiful Visuals and Animations - which it has in spades!

This is an interesting point and I agree completely.
Certain games aren't fun and loose my attention simply because they are too simple. And along those lines I'm pretty confused when I see a colleague or a friend who drops a difficulty level down to easy. I can understand a child or elderly person who changes the difficulty to easy - but for someone near my age with similar interests - I'm confused because I think the challenge is part of the fun. If a game isn't challenging - it better be gratuitous with visuals and story - or I'm pretty disinterested.
I'm learning - people are weird and like different experiences than I do. Weirdos!

But my position still stands - the bottom line is - catch up mechanics have no place in games.
If I'm getting smoked in a racing game - I want the person who is racing better than me to beat me by as many seconds as he earned, and when I'm running from water and I kill 3/4 of the level - I should be able to miss ONE jump near the top and not die - because the water was designed to be only one second behind the character at all times. Just seems unfair.

 

I didn't mind how hard it was or that it required memorization and precision. It had an old school vibe that was okay with me,

It did bother me that it made my health upgrades useless.

"Oh, you spent time gathering all the cells? Cool! You die in one hit anyway, so they are useless! Awesome, right?"

 

Challenge is only fun if the mechanics are good an repetition in the game is still fun. For a few console games that I didn't enjoy thaaat much I dropped the difficulty down, just to minimize the amount of repitition I'd need to do. I choose the skill setting I anticipate to have the most fun with (usually that's "normal"). Sometimes it turns out I'm wrong. Deus Ex Human Revolution I started on "hard" on the xbox 360 and that was like insta-death the moment you get spotted. I started again on medium because I got pulverized in the first gunfight and that wasn't fun.

His other videos seem pretty interesting too:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc38fcMFcV_s7Lf6xbeRfWYRt7-Vmi_X9