Funny video: What happens when you ask people from OTHER professions to work for free ;)

I just thought this was funny. Considering how often I've been asked to work for free. And I'm not even particularly good yet. Or maybe it's the fact that since I'm not particularly good, I'm asked.

 

You know, I have had people here on the Unity forums contact me and ask me to work for free...make them terrains, write their design doc, etc. Amazing. lol Personally, I love the barter system but unless someone is going to give back in some way, it is rather crazy to ask for free stuff.

 

It hasn't happened here on this forum for me, but on other forums where I display my art-assets more. I think I've been asked, seriously, five or six times. I'm sitting there, "this thing I've shown is crap. Why do you want me anywhere near your project?"

 

Yeah, my daughters are artists. One answered a request on Deviant Art for comic book art with promises of payment. She made the art and then he told her he didn't have the money right now, hard times, you know. But he would still like to use it. Hard lesson for a young person.

 

bahahahahaha

 

It might make sense to do some free side work IF it is fun project to participate in and the other side is completely honest about their intentions (and if it is non-commercial).

However, people that try to trick you into working for for them for free ... ugh. The worst kind is "do unpaid test for us, we will hire you if we like results, we promise!".

Now, I'm a programmer, but I have no idea how designers/artists could possibly deal with this crap.

Teach her to request partial upfron payment or explain how to use escrow services and/or work through freelancing platforms. This kind of incident can hurt quite a bit of young age.

 

"I'm going to start providing my services day one, so you have to start paying day one... that's just how businesses work" Spot on. That's all you should be saying when someone asks for spec work.

 

I always figured most of these people requesting "give me your time for free", "work for free", "join my team for a royalty split" were all kids and to them it seemed reasonable. I've had the same things as a programmer. "Hey we just need a programmer and the money made will be split evenly across everyone involved!!!!"

Now I am sitting here thinking... "wow... maybe some of these were actually adults". I can kind of see where the folks are coming from who are suggesting people team up and the money will be split evenly. I am sure they are thinking everyone on forums such as these must be interested in game development. And they are already doing it for free anyway in the majority of cases so why not team up with other people. There is some logic in it. Except there will likely be no money to split or very little if there is. Again the same is true for whatever they are working on alone. It is the ones who just want programmers to make stuff for them or artists to make stuff for them... for absolutely nothing at all. Those are the ones that really make me wonder if the person is mentally stable.

 

I worked for royalties and for splits. I don't have a problem with that depending on the team. If they are people I know and trust, I feel comfortable. BUT I don't need to make money to live so for me, the risk is worth the fun. I would not join a team unless the project was something I really loved.

Also, we have volunteers on our team, but they willingly volunteered and we do offer them a contract if they wish. We do not lie to them, and we do not expect the same sort of hours that we would from someone we pay.

I have also led large volunteer teams of writers and had a fabulous experience. Again, we all did have contracts but we were still volunteers. The experience was priceless and I suggest this to all newbies. Go help someone on a project you believe in. Get the experience. Become a partner in the project if you want.

But once you are experienced and can command a price, then don't give away your art/code/whatever for free unless you really really want to do so.

 

She is 17 and has had several nice commissions that paid well so she has seen both sides. I don't think she was hurt so much as angry because the person told her they would pay and did not. In my mind, it was a good experience because she learned something.

 

Decent scenario for "free work" is trying to gather team and make a demo to get funds for the project and then secure salary to everybody. Basically, it is a side project that might or might not result in something interesting for everybody involved. If you know different way to get a studio started from nothing, I'm all ears. Because at SOME point it is always a person or several who work for nothing.

As for "Royalties" this is usually a pipe dream that results in nothing being paid.

Now, that's the right way to do it.

Ah, well, in this case she should be able to handle that. Might make sense to tell her about escrow services, though - if she doesn't know about them already.

 

This is comedy gold. Luckily I've never outright worked for free to done the royalties thing. However, I did used to work freelance and I've had clients stiff me (but we never signed a contract so I didn't bother pursuing it).

 

Who else intends to link this when someone creates a thread asking for work with profit sharing?

 

Actually its not that uncommon to do work for free in my industry (chemical engineering). There is significant work that goes into preparing a quote/proposal/tender. On bigger projects this cost can run into six or seven figures. In most cases there are several firms vying for the contract. So there is always someone that's put in a ton of work that doesn't get paid a cent.

And yet there are companies lining up to submit proposals on big projects.

Each industry has its own peculiarities.

 

I recall once one winter when I was a kid, I went around asking people if I could shovel their driveway for like $5. One particular family said they would pay me and drove off before I finished. I couldn't tell if it was their vehicle driving away because it came out of a garage in a connected set of houses.

I was not happy, suffice to say haha for the amount of money they spent on gas driving that big SUV around for half an hour while I shoveled their drive and sidewalk they could easily have paid me. I felt awful in realizing I was depending on them paying me later when it was done. I guess I'm too trusting. It shouldn't be this way but yea.

That was the only house that ever stiffed me though. Out of the dozen or so houses I shoveled it was bound to happen...

 

@Braineeee, that is very sad. A person must have a pretty dark soul to stiff a kid out of $5. Shoveling snow is a tough job.

 

Indeed, this is true of many industries - M&A pitches in investment banking, advertising, most government contract bids, architecture, contingent recruitment etc.

 

Yup. I will say that game dev is the only one where as an employee I've been asked to create original work as part of the recruitment process. But I've heard it happens in some of the other creative industries as well.

 

I made a few games where I got the artist to work for split of the profits.

 

Well now this is very true. Whenever we need to do something in response to a RFP of course we end up doing at the very least some investigation and design work and possibly even a very light prototype although we try not to actually do that unless absolutely necessary.

That does line up with the video well. And as you said is just the way it is. Heck government contracts are nearly always likes this. Although they can use their Preferred Vendors list to skip the RFP sometimes or at least it used to be that way.

However, in these cases there is a known amount of money that will be received if awarded the project. Sure the odds may be low depending on the number of companies responding but at least there actually is a worthwhile amount of money waiting for the winning proposal.

The difference over here in game dev is usually the person asking for such stuff is basing it all on some pie in the sky imaginary future profits. So not only will your effort and time not result in paid work now... you don't even know if your continued effort and time will result in any money in the future either.

 

I'm currently working for free on my first game, awesomely retro 3D platformer with pure polygons called Computer Virus Simulator. With the intention of selling it when it's done but still, currently I have no money from doing it. Go figure.

 

Yep that is why I can kind of see why people ask others here and similar forums to work for free. Because they rightly figure most people at these places are already doing exactly that. Heck not only working for free but actually working for free and spending money on assets too. Of course, there is a big difference in working for free on your own projects and doing the same on someone else's projects. Or at least for me there is.

 

Well, some people just like to help out of kindness of their hearts and often times developers are kind people.

 

Offering something in exchange would be an alternative to simply asking for free work with the hope that your game eventually becomes successful. If you're a programmer and need artwork, offer code assistance in exchange for art.

I feel like this thread is primarily aimed at those who show up with an idea expecting others to make it for them.

 

I love it.

There's a similar video I saw almost 10 years ago where potential clients keep asking software developers to work for free or at a discount in exchange for sweat equity or good referrals. I can't seem to find it now and I've been looking for it for years.

If anyone here has seen it and has a link, please let me know or post it here.

 

@schmosef I think I know what video you are talking about, but don't have link either.

 

Oh man, I would love to see it again.

 

That's where you make a big snow wall across their driveway & spray water over it to help it set nice & hard, then leave a message written in yellow snow/ice

 

Hahahaha omg I freaking love that
@tedthebug !!!! Wish I had thought of that!!!

 

I thank Calvin & Hobbes for the initial inspiration, the yellow snow is just me being mean

 

Hehe. I like how some creative types expect to be paid, when they aren't good enough that anyone would buy their stuff, if they tried to sell it on the street. As for me I used to see it as just like starting a garage band. People join these bands and start jamming and no one ever pays them. Most bands go no where, only the very best ever make a living at it.

As for me I stopped asking people to "join bands" a long time ago, as there is this impenetrable mindset of people with no skills, who'll do nothing until they get paid. They don't understand that people won't buy your music, until you become really good and the only way to get really good, is with 10,000 hours of practice.

 

No matter how bad they are, they should expect to be paid. It is up to the person paying to make sure the quality is up to their standards. Expecting to be paid does not means someone is good or will even be hired. Not sure I even get your statement above...why would you want to not pay for bad stuff? Why would you want bad stuff?

Garage bands is actually a good analogy for many of our game teams. Professional indies are those people who need the income so they can expect to be paid. But a lot of us are just starting out or we are more hobbyists, or we are a group of friends or former colleagues who are making a self funded game and none of us expect to be paid unless/until we actually make a game we can sell.

As one who has worked with and managed volunteers I can tell you that some are fabulous, go out of their way to work hard and produce a lot. Most come and go, contribute a little here and there, and then disappear into the night. There are also those who work to build a portfolio and then go off to find paying jobs. I had a few of our volunteers in the past find jobs with AAA companies based on the work they did for us. Then you have the interns, students who get credit for working for "free". I have worked with a few of those over the years too with great success, although of course, they usually last for only a semester.

Experience is a huge thing. Very difficult to get a paid job as an artist or a writer or even, in some cases, as a coder, unless you have some projects to show. Those getting college degrees might have a portfolio built through classes and internships. Those who build mobile games can rack up the games more quickly and have a nice list of finished products.

Some of us, self taught, or with degrees in unrelated fields are just happy to be doing something we love. Maybe someday we will get paid. Actually, I turned down a few paying game development jobs when I was younger, mostly writing jobs. I had young kids and didn't want to be tied down to a schedule. I don't regret it one bit. Volunteering worked best for me and kept it fun, not a job.

 

No one paid me to go to school and I did a heck of a lot of work there. Perhaps if students demanded to be paid for their work at school, they wouldn't have to waste so much time there.

Because you might be poor and bad too and want to improve? Everyone starts at the bottom, you can't get better doing nothing.

 

Afaik, when people start garage bands, they do it for fun, not for the money. The band is a money sink/expensive hobby and doesn't bring any profit. It is about "we want to perform", not "we want to get paid".

They're right to demand payment even though they don't have the skills. If you can't afford them or if their skills don't match your requirements, though, you don't have to hire them.

That doesn't count. The education is here to ensure that you'll be able to function in society to some extent.

Otherwise, you know, I could ask you to build me a house for free. Because that'l be a great learning opportunity. Oh, and you'll be also paying for the building materials as well. Because that'll ALSO be a great learning opportunity.

Now that you're adult, the safety nets are off, and you're required to pay for your own bills, that's the reason why there are minimum wages.

So, in case of volunteers in exchange for their services you either provide monetary compensation OR non-material value (entertaining/interesting project to work on). If you can't provide either, then you'll have to do the whole project yourself.

Don't expect to get something for nothing. You either pay up, or ensure that volunteers have a blast working for your project. If you lead a project, that's your job.

 

You were paid with an education consisting of the basics to get started as a productive and successful member of society. Without it you wouldn't have been able to do much at all. Game development, for example, requires being able to read the documentation, understanding how to break a problem down into individual steps and understanding high school math.

 

Pfft, I make games and I can barely add, let alone... trigonometrise.

 

If students were to be paid for studying then 99% of them would be sacked for turning up stoned/pissed, chucking sickies, sexual harassment etc

 

Wait, you guys don't get paid while you study? That's a sad state of affairs. Students here don't get paid much. But the student allowance is typically enough to scrape by on food and rent.

 

Welcome to the United States. Where an education can be just the first step of getting yourself into debt.

 

I'm studying in Australia. My first year cost me $17k aud. I put it on a government loan that I only repay a portion of each year if I earn just over about $50k I think. If I die before its repayed the government writes it off as a loss. I get charged an annual interest rate of about cpi or something very low but they did charge me a 20% fee for each amount that I put on the loan. The fee goes on the loan as well & accrues interest. So, education costs here as well but yes, some students are eligible for a small government stipend to help cover living costs.

 

Before Hippo will go and close this thread, I'll mention that Scandinavian (don't know which exactly country, but my bet is on Sweden) studies had shown that if you pay students for studying or even showing up at all, they get better grades. So yay for positive reinforcement, I guess. If I ever will have kids (which I don't plan on as I don't want to have screamy, leaky from all orifices beast in my house, but accidents happen I guess), I'll pay them for doing the homework and for the grades (the better grades they get, the more I pay).

 

I have no idea how this related to the quote preceding your comment. So...you think that if someone is still learning how to make stuff, they should give it to you for free, if I get that right.

Yeah right...uh huh.

Well, students who are still learning should not be selling or giving away there stuff. Most of it is done on student accounts, many of which do not allow resale or use in commercial products. Actually, models made in Autodesk products with student licenses are marked as student licenses, not for resale or use in commercial products. So..they have no right even giving away to someone making a game that might become commercial.

A few companies, like Adobe, do allow use of items made with student licenses to be used commercially. I would make sure before you accept anything for free, especially if there is a chance your game might go commercial someday.

You might find some students willing to give you stuff for free..but check out the license they use. Also, you have absolutely no right to expect a student to give it to you for free. They don't learn by giving you stuff. They learn by practicing over and over, and that work, most of the time, goes into a portfolio, not into your pocket.

 

Its also worth noting that student work is generally considered to be low quality. I've hired students before for work. And paid them too. But the typical reason you hire students is for cheap labour that is somewhat knowledgeable in the subject matter area. You don't give them free reign until they are out of school and have had a couple of years of good experience.

 

The Clients From Hell site has numerous stories from people expecting professional graphic designers, web designers, video producers, and photographers to work for free, strange trades, or amounts that you probably couldn't get a starving college student to accept. My primary work is client and contract based, but I've been lucky enough to only have a few clients who tried anything shady on the costs, and never anything like the stories on Clients From Hell.

 

Reading some of the cases listed on Clients From Hell some of it definitely seems to be the service providers having the issue more than the clients. Sometimes service providers get way too wrapped up in the details and perfectionism / professionalism / "their name" and lose sight of the fact that generally the client just wants it done. Period. A good example is the jpg image stretching. This person is saying they just couldn't bring themselves to do that. The customer just stretched the dang thing and had it done. Sure it could look better but sometimes a person just wants results. Get it done. Doesn't have to be perfect.

 

A lot of the stories on that site seem to be the designer's fault as they haven't set an expectation of cost, outlined scope of work etc. I work as a consultant and we carefully state the scope of work and cost on our quote. If the client wants anything outside of that we advise them it'll cost extra.

Never had any issues with it, it's all about communication and setting the right expectation for the customer.

 

Or beginners.

My conclusion: Don't open those $5 mails or royalty proposal ones. And put the exact price on your work, and don't devalue.

 

If we're on to the subject of funny (in retrospect) client stories, this one's a classic: missing cat poster.

 

There's a reason I have the following rules for contract work:

* If lump sum, 10% non-refundable retainer up front.
* No milestone payment received? No milestone deliverable given.
* My hourly rate is my hourly rate, and I generally only work with companies willing and able to pay, and have a proven record with other contractors and/or employees.

 

What's interesting is, nobody expects to work for free.
And yet, people come out of the woodwork justifying software piracy.