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FPS + RPG prototype , driven by spreadsheet

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by hongwaixuexi, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I learned some MMORPG in which numercial design plays a big role. I made a small prototype. I build several very simple spreadsheets, and fill in the parameters. Then the hero loads data from XML file (auto generated by spreadsheet), and the weapons and monsters load data from XML files too.

    Now I can design the game in spreadsheet. Changes numbers and get different gameplay feelings.
     
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  2. JoeStrout

    JoeStrout

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    Yes, I've done that too. It is indeed a good setup.
     
  3. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    What's great about Excel is that you can write macros too, so it's almost like development environment in and of itself. If (for example) you have a lot of random factors, you can write a test script to run multiple simulations and tally the results.
     
  4. SparrowsNest

    SparrowsNest

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    What is with the enemies spawning in right besides you?, also, what does gaining a rank mean? do you get more health? access to better weapons?

    Enemies are fine for a basic shoot'em up prototype but you're gonna wanna give them some more characters, right now they act more like sentry guns/turrets. (and that's fine too, but I feel like you should make it more "alive")

    Why are you so obsessed with data?, is this just a culture thing that I don't get?(mediterranean here, I assume you're asian) BTW, if you are a troll, you're doing a mighty fine job.
     
  5. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Rank is a signal for level up. When levelling up, the player's maxHP, maxMP, attack value, defence value, ....character's attributes will be changed. In this prototype, only level 1 and white color weapones, and I will design different color weapons (like diablo), and they have requirement of player level. Better weapons have better parameters, more ammor or more damage etc.

    The enemies spawning rules can also be written in spreadsheet. Now I didn't do it this time. So the enemies are spawned when the player shoots turret.

    There are only two models for enemies. I will add more characters.

    I am not obsessed with data. In my previous prototypes, I deal with few data. Then I found out missing data weakens the gameplay.
     
  6. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    The moment to moment game play is weak though, it seems you have a better understanding of progression since last time, but you are still operating in the abstract and far from the player's experience.
     
  7. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    In China's MMORPG development team, they have one job only for filling in spreadsheets. They analyze formulars and balance them continuously.
     
  8. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Correct.
     
  9. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Thanks. What does it mean "still operating in the abstract"? I think filling the spreadsheet is working on details.
     
  10. SparrowsNest

    SparrowsNest

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    I'm sorry, I meant give the existing enemies more character (singular), as in personalty, not have more graphics for different enemies (that too when you finish with the MVP/prototype, but that's not what I meant), look at the original doom, each enemy have unique behaviors making the game having a much greater range of tactical play.

    I don't know how you're data model thingy works, but the spawning thing seems like it should be build in to the game itself, not the level design.
    I appreciate the need for spreadsheets and all that jazz and I use them too, but there's a lot more to game design then data, it doesn't matter how many enemies are spawned in by pure value, it depends on what those enemies are, where and when they come at you, at what combination, and most importantly - how does this actually feel? (am I getting across here?)

    The footage you posted seems very monotone and I forced myself to watch 1 minute before skipwatching it, I don't mean it in a disrepectful way.

    In a second viewing of the video I do see the health bar increasing in value when you level up, but you should add more to it, make the bar itself do some animation, do something with color to make it pop, have something on the side that says for example "Health +10%" and etc.
     
  11. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Thanks. I will look at some UI effects, and choose one.
     
  12. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    From the model's view, they are same. You can put them into spreadsheet or just put them into the game. In spreadsheet, you can fill the postion of spawner and enemies' IDs. You also can put the spawner frefab in level.
     
  13. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    what those enemies are or where and when and combination? They are data. They can be fillied in spreadsheet.
     
  14. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    The spreadsheet is not the goal, it's the tools in which you achieve a gameplay aesthetics.

    The question is what is the gameplay aesthetics, what is rewarding to play (as not in extrinsic but intrinsec)?

    THat is, how does the player relate to the actions, how the player is engaged mentally and emotionally?
     
  15. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Agree. It helps to organize design ideas.

    Numercial design can give huge extrinsic rewarding obviously, but very little intrinsic rewarding. And I know few about aesthetics.
     
  16. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Aethetics don't mean, the visual here, it mean the value of the game (to make a shortcut, gameplay isn't the same when it's an action game or a reflexion game, or if it is casual or hardcore, that represent different aesthetics).

    It's simply the feel of the game, why play this instead of another one? You only know what feel you want (that mean beyond "i made a random game" aesthetics, in which the value if not for the player but the designer).
     
  17. DimitriX89

    DimitriX89

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    BTW, is gameplay is just a placeholder? Because it looks terrible for a shooter. Enemies have hitscan attacks and shoot almost instantly, and there is no cover. Therefore almost all damage is unavoidable. I think if you want a game to be totally driven by stat numbers, not player skills, shooter is a wrong choice of genre.
     
  18. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    You're right about this.

    Gameplay can be greatly affeced by different numbers (infinite ammo or limited ammo, recover health automatically or look for rare medical kits.
    I will add skills such as shileds or magic spells. The gameplay will be different.
    In fact, the enemies drop medical kit when they are destroyed. If I change the rate to half, and the gamer will feel some pressure. I tried different drop rates, and I can feel the difference of gameplay.
     
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  19. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    He mean also the level design.
     
  20. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    Thanks. I think level design is another thing. It's a challenging too.
     
  21. DimitriX89

    DimitriX89

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    Yeah, I had problem with map design as well. You are constantly open to enemies spawning right into your face. The shooter feels unfair when the player can not avoid damage manually. Even in heavily loot-based shooter games like Borderlands player input matters for some degree (using cover, prioritizing certain targets, some enemies having dodge-able projectiles). (Though BL is still terrible in that regard with all the hitscanner ambushes). Auto-hit attacks might be OK for turn-based JRPG or Diablo clone, but not for FPS.
     
  22. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    I tried this gameplay in other maps too. In bigger map, the player can avoid the bullets easily, and I can add some more elite enemies. In small map, like the hosptial prototype, the fight is very intense even for normal enemies.
    It's also a challenging to adjust the right numbers for different maps.
     
  23. DimitriX89

    DimitriX89

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    Ok, sorry, now I've noticed that enemies are firing projectiles, they are just very fast. Still pretty much unavoidable from a close range. Might be OK on a bigger map though.
     
  24. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    In fact, I use the same spreadsheet in https://forum.unity.com/threads/the...g-or-diablo-like-arpg-is-very-complex.750983/.

    I made some modifications to fit for FPS gameplay. But the balancing process is same.

    In this map, the experience for level up should be higher or the exp you gained by killing enemies should be decreased. The player level up too quickly because of intense fight, while in bigger map the player wont' level up that quickly.
     
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  25. TheKingOfTheRoad

    TheKingOfTheRoad

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    hi, maybe a pre alpha or early access build to play it's better than judging by video?
    Anyway, awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    Because you are trying to make a feeling
    on the player not from visuals alone (i like visuals),
    but from gameplay driven by whatever you want.

    Im excited to try the possibilities...

    Can we customize this behaviour inside Options Screen too?

    Or maybe a Easy, Medium, Hard Classic preset mode.

    I feel it has something Arcade and i like the pace.

    Of course you need more enemies that change behaviour to make it
    super and look at Thief game, to hide in the dark will be a good
    idea if this ORBES are too F***ing hard to kill and you want to go
    to another Area to LEVEL UP in another way that doesn't has
    anything to do with SHOOTING.

    So you can Level up by killing, but you can also level up in another
    way, hiding and finding something.

    My grain of salt.

    Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers for the progress.

    Then you can have fragemented narrative and in future the
    AI can use machine learning to defeat us all.

    WATCHING THREAD. :) OP rocks.

    I will keep repeating the video to learn and think more feedback in future.

    The ONLY thing it keeps me from not looking at the video 50 times it's the FLASHING
    on the blood. If you take that FLASHING out in the blood (try another approach) then
    eyes are more confortable in here.

    Sound, Look&Feel: Awesome!
    Level Design & Gameplay: i cannot judge without playing...
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  26. hongwaixuexi

    hongwaixuexi

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    For data driven game, it's a easy task.

    Or quest system.

    Yes.

    I know few about machine learning.

    Yes. It's fast pace. I want to add a safe zone for trading and taking tasks.
     
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  27. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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  28. TheKingOfTheRoad

    TheKingOfTheRoad

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    I think your system will be cool if we as PLAYERS can PLAY with this CUSTOM values.
    Then, your system will be cool too for ONLINE match, cooperative mode for example,
    when you can customize this Settings.

    Best Battlefield matchs i've played in the past had to do playing with the BOTS values, how many bots,
    how difficult, and so on.

    This system works, just needs to expose it to the end user for ONLINE matchs.

    Just an idea i had while reading this post again.

    BESIDES this, i think this LEVEL DESIGN it's OK. You maybe need to EXPLORE
    in a different MAP to have max. feeling about how it works, maybe EXTERIOR map
    and different LEVEL DESIGN. Then you have 2 maps and more variation.

    Another ENEMY can appear in this new map. Then you have 2 maps and 2 different
    kind of enemies.