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Discussion in 'Game Design' started by critmanichx732, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    So, i'm making a MMORPG. I'm using Trello to plan out the project, and then today I came to a shocking realization. MMOs are based on how many players there are, otherwise my ideas are just for a multiplayer game that allows for a lot of people. If only 5 people play it, then it is not considered a MMO.


    So, I came up with a solution. Ask the people what they want.

    It's a MMORPG that is based on what would happen if a world with no magic is invaded by monsters, demons, and the like. None of the people on the planet have magic, so they have to find some way to survive.

    I already have a list of things i want to implement, but I'm at a stump for ideas past those.

    Pet System/Taming and Raising System:

    Pretty self-explanatory, you can fight monsters with monsters tamed and raised at your side.

    Farming, Fishing, and Mining:

    The obvious way to get money for selling stuff is to sell what you mine, fish, or farm.

    Cooking/Smithing:

    Make your own food, or weapons/armor.


    Woodworking/Homesteading/Fletching:

    Making Homes, Bows, and Arrows out of Wood.

    That's about all I could come up with on my own. Any ideas?

    I
     
  2. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    So you are new to Unity and programming, and your very first game idea is to make mmo?
    You would be much better, to start with something much, much simpler.
     
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  3. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    I've already learned the basics of C#, and the Unity Interface isn't exactly rocket science. I learned a lot of stuff from many different tutorials, and google is my friend. I'm using Mirror for Networking, and I've got at least another 65+ years on my lifetime as i'm only 23 years old. What I don't know already, I can learn, and I learn quickly. What i can't do now I will be able to during the development process.

    I've always wanted to make an MMO, and i've already experimented a bunch with different things I randomly found out about on youtube. It is not impossible, therefore I will do it, and if it is impossible, I will find a way, I always do.

    I've already gotten past the "You cannot do this because 'insert meaningful advice here' phase."

    I know you are trying to save me time and trouble, since being an indie dev doesn't exactly match up with the whole MMO scale, but if I was going to give up, I would have the first time someone told me to.

    I don't mean to be rude, seriously I don't. But this is something I have to do.

    All that aside, thanks for the advice. Also, do you have anything you would like to see in the game?

    In this age where information is at our fingertips, and you can literally learn anything you want, why can't I learn how to make an mmo? I just don't see it as impossible with all the tech and knowledge available to me.

    It's only a 2D MMO, and there are people on the asset store who have accomplished making an MMO Engine. Who's to say with a little time and a whole lot of work i cannot do the same.

    Again, I'm not trying to be rude, just stating my point of view. Seriously though, do you have any ideas you'd like to contribute?
     
  4. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    When I get the chance, i'm going to purchase the uMMORPG 2D Asset, and have a look over the source code. It says "100 percent of source code is available" and I know uNet is deprecated, but there should be some code in there that will speed up the process by leaps and bounds.
     
  5. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    You are not the first and not the last person, who say so. But results are rather opposite, for most majority.

    You have excluded from you life span equation life circumstances. Which may push your project further away than anticipating.

    Perhaps there is a reason, why more experianced people try to advise, to start small (all over), and build up from there.

    Thinking that editor is only challenging part, which is blindly past behind, is very false impression.

    Also, make sure to ask asset owner, how many games were complete with it. Just to have rough idea. But even then, owning tons of assets, are not magic bullets.

    But by all means, do it, if you got plenty time and lots of patience. You will need alot of it.

    Regarding ideas, you have plenty there for now. I would like see something playable first. You can open WIP thread with your project. Then once you progress, people will come along with many suggestions. Just sometimes need to a draw the line, when too many of them.
     
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  6. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Thanks, that is very helpful! I'll start with a playable demo, and work my way from there. I'll take your advice and open a work in progress thread once I at least have a playable demo. Even if it's only a base rpg with some networking to serve as a barebones server for multiplayer. Seriously, thanks for the advice, I will take it to heart.

    I will start with the basics, even if it's just a map with nothing to do, that a whole lot of people can join and chat. Then move on to adding more stuff.
     
  7. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Learning things the hard way is great. Builds solid understanding. But it takes a long time so if you go the stubborn route you must work long hours to make up for time spent learning things that have already been widely understood.
     
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  8. Steve_Stevens

    Steve_Stevens

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    You should start with tic tac toe. Player VS. Computer. Make the AI learn how to play the game. THEN make a multiplayer tic tac toe. Have one of your friends who would rather cheat at a game than play it properly try to break it. Once you understand how that can be hacked. Make a small open world game that supports 10 people. Get it where the network interactions are glass smooth. Then have your cheater friend show you all the security holes. Once you'd done that, THEN introduce PVP. After you have THAT glass smooth, have a couple of cheater friends show you all the holes in your network again.. Finally after a couple of years goofing around with the netcode, MAYBE think of creating the next one twice as large with 100 people. After you've repeated the steps, learn how to manage multiple servers and load balancing. Duplicating databases, data syncing across multiple servers, and once again, spend a year with your hacker friends showing you where they are breaking your database, or load balancing servers. Trust me, ANY major MMO that has been out in the last 10 years, had 20 years of previous experience creating smaller productions, then ramping them up. New people to unity want to make the next GTA breaker, they don't realize, GTA has been around since 1997 or 1998. They've had a couple of year to figure all the stuff out. They also had a HUGE staff and many teams to handle each aspect of game. Trust me, by yourself, MAYBE 40 years, you'll have something on the level of Ultima Online from the 2000's. If you want to tackle this job, build up a team and get started! I wish you all the luck, in the mean time, learn what you can and think smaller, MUCH smaller.
     
  9. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    I'm all for tackling what you're passionate about. You might not succeed the first time around, but you'll walk away with a lot of learning that you can apply on your next try. If you use something like uMMORPG2D, you can have an MMO up and running in a few hours. It won't be your MMO; it will be the MMO that ships with the asset. But it's something that you can start modding and customizing to make your own, and in the process learn a lot about Unity, networking, and game design. Many game designers have come from the modding community, modding things like Quake and Half-Life without necessarily having a complete understanding of how every line of the engine code works.

    Another benefit of working on your dream project right away is that it becomes real instead of some idealized "this has to be my ultimate creation" goal that becomes increasingly intimidating to touch. By making it less precious, it opens you up to growing and trying lots of different things.

    BTW, uMMORPG2D uses Mirror, which is an active, non-deprecated fork of UNET.
     
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  10. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    An MMO needs systems for cooperation and organizing of players. An MMO usually needs content, content, content.

    On recommending to do something simpler as a first project, for someone experienced with Unity a finished and polished Tetris game can still take a few months. A finished network multiplayer clone of Atari Combat can take 9 months+. A finished single player RPG can take a year or more. A finished MMO will take multiple years.

    I'm 3 years into developing my MMO. Currently playable with a lot you can do, but still feature and content incomplete. YMMV
     
  11. Teila

    Teila

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    If you really want to make an MMO....start with a small terrain, and put in the features and content you want and then see if it is fun. See if your game has something that others do not have.

    uMMORPG is a good choice. The other choice is Atavism, which is what I use but it is more complex but with an awesome server system. Make sure you can code, or your game will be as someone said above, a template of a game rather than a game.

    And yes..it will take a long time. Make sure you are familiar with Unity or it will take you longer.

    I work with lots of beginning MMO creators who use Atavism and the ones who succeed are ones with Unity experience and ones who can code enough to add customization. But..even if you come up with a simple template game without using any coding and you get your 10 friends to play with you, then hey, who cares if it is an MMO or a multiplayer game!!

    I am loving my journey and if it is something you want to do and you want to do it for the love of making the game or to challenge yourself, they great!! Do it. :)
     
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  12. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Thanks to everyone who has replied! You're advice from experience is very appreciated! I plan on buying uMMORPG 2D just to see the source code, and learn how they did it. Once I have the source code, I'll modify it to fit the needs of the MMO, so it won't be a template to game sort of thing.

    I'm glad that uMMORPG 2D is not using deprecated uNet. That means I don't have to worry about what still applies and what doesn't.

    Again thanks for all of the advice!
     
  13. a436t4ataf

    a436t4ataf

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    This is all true, with just one small mistake.

    It's not 65 years to develop an MMORPG, it's (currently) about 1,000 years. (Source: I've worked on 3 global MMOs, and a lot more small MMOs). You can shortcut this a lot with buying assets - maybe get it from 1000 years down to 100 years. But you're still going to take more than your lifetime to ship it.

    *That* is why people object when someone says "I'm making an MMO myself".

    It is - literally - impossible. And so you have no chance unless you - somehow - change the rules. You can find yourself a team of 100 other people. Or you can redefine your MMO to be a "non-massively MO". Or you can make an MMO that only has 20 minutes of game-play.

    (all those are practical examples I've seen work).

    So ... I second the advice: go build a different game first. Partly because: (as others said) it gives you a huge amount of knowledge about how much work is actually involved, and teaches you many skills quickly.

    But mainly because: it will give you a much better chance of deciding "which rules am I going to change to make an MMO achievable in my lifetime?"
     
  14. a436t4ataf

    a436t4ataf

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    PS: I personally know two people who made actual MMOs "on their own". They were both incredibly lucky and exceptional programmers (easily in the top 0.001% of programmers worldwide) with many many years of programming experience. It's also no coincidence that both of them were programmers...
     
  15. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    So, as I've stated. I have decided to buy the uMMORPG 2D, and get the basics of networking down by learning from the source code that is available for anyone who buys the asset. Since it is a MMORPG Engine, it will cover the networking side of things at least mostly. As someone else has stated, and I agreed to, was the act of starting out small and building a WIP over time Base Game, and then figuring out how to do basic multiplayer stuff later on. That is what I intend to do.

    With uMMORPG 2D giving the 100% source code included with the purchase, and since I can understand the basics of how to read C#, it shouldn't be much of problem to Modify the Source Code Extensively to fit my Game and preferences.

    The Modifying part is what would take the longest, and I doubt that time is anywhere near 1000 years.

    Like Advanced Science being called Magic until Science was invented, I believe it is safe to say, not only is it not impossible, it will take only a few good years, at least 5 or less, to succeed with the game as an MMORPG.

    I'm in a small team of three people, an Artist, a Composer, and everything else falls on my shoulders. I've nailed the basics of C#, and there is always Skillshare, Youtube, and Google if I need to know something. I learn rapidly, and I know how life get's in the way.

    My basis for all of this is as follows.

    1. uMMORPG 2D is an MMO Engine, a template of sorts.
    2. Any template can be filled or modified to one's liking if one knows how.
    3. I can read C# so I know how.

    Here's a summary of my steps:

    1. Build a Base Game, and make sure it works.
    2. Buy uMMORPG 2D, if only for the Source Code.
    3. Modify the Source Code to fit my liking.
    4. Make everything in the base game compatible with base multiplayer using my new reworked and personalized Source Code.
    5. Finalize, Polish, and polish to infinity and beyond.
    7. Profit, and let the results do the talking.

    What I don't know I can learn, and i'm serious when I say I learn quickly.

    P.S. I only bolded it to make it stand out from the rest of the text, and not to be rude. I know sometimes my words come out wrong and I sound mad or rude, but I'm not trying to be. If you have any reason why the above is still impossible, please tell me. I meant it when I said I appreciate the advice of the more experienced.
     
  16. a436t4ataf

    a436t4ataf

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    No offence taken. I just thought it was interesting that the problem with MMO design/dev is usually a misunderstanding around a single number - the sheer volume of work/man-hours required :).

    Hopefully you can find a successful path to making a game you love. I hope it works out for you!
     
  17. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    This like a common thing here. Somebody comes in with big plans, ask advice, people hit the "noob" alarm, and then this poor noob spends pages defending themselves.

    Here's a tip: just get started. Nobody cares what you are saying. You make some gameplay and show videos and screenshots of real progress, then the words begin to mean something.Then when you ask a question you are going to get the answers you need more quickly. Because people know: "that guy actually does work."

    I quoted step number 1 there. You've listed is as one single step. But actually it is composed of ten million significant steps all on it's own.

    So what are you waiting for? The game won't build itself. Let's see some work in progress.
     
  18. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Yes, but I have a few ideas. I'm considering on making AI in C# that manage the server for me, sort of like cardinal in SAO, but not really too much.

    If I get it right, and it's successful, all "Work/Man" hours would only be dedicated to making sure that once the MMO is up and running, the AI Ambassador for each server is working as intended. Sort of like, a "Check in once or twice every day to make sure everything is working properly."

    The only problem is coding it in C#, I think maybe a glorified array of if/if else statements would work. Then I onlyy have to worry about getting it to work with my personalized source code, maybe making a empty game object and attaching the script to it?

    I 'll get it right.
     
  19. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Work in progress will come as soon as i know what classifies as WIP, I wouldn't want to prematurely put it on the forum, only to not update it until a month or two later. Seriously, I'm doing the Prototyping Phase all this week. And most of last weak. Is that good enough?


    I'm on a three man team, and i'm doing all but two jobs, the Art and the Composing are done by others, i'm waiting till I ar least have a 2 minute demo, and some basic stuff out of the way.
     
  20. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    If I'm right, it just has to be functional, and not as fancy, right?
     
  21. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Just reread the WIP Section Rules, what I have now would be considered Small Works, I think. When it gets more and more stuff will the Moderators move it to the main forum or do I just post what I have in the main forum and update continuously?
     
  22. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Is it an MMO about herding cats?
     
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  23. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    There can be cats, and there can be herding.
     
  24. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Definitely going to have a pet system. Maybe have a shepherding system? I'll think about it.
     
  25. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    But I hate cats. I won't play this game unless there is dogs. And I can shepherd the dogs to kill the cats.

    Up dogs, down cats.
     
  26. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    There will be dogs, but if you don't want to play in the first place, and have to use killing cats as an excuse to play, then you shouldn't be playing the game in the first place because it probably won't satisfy you to begin with. In that case, you need simply to not play the game at all.
     
  27. Teila

    Teila

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    I am in contact with hundreds of people every day who are making MMOs using Atavism. Yes, some of them fail and yes it can take years to make an MMO. And Yes, it is much better to have a team.....

    But...900 users on the discord channel. A couple of games on Steam or on Itchio or well into production. A few of those are solo developers. Some have huge open worlds, which I do not recommend for indie MMOs. Some have unrealistic expectations....300k users! But they all work every day to achieve their goal.

    Out of all those developers, a fraction might have successful Indie MMOs, which means....maybe 1000 or 5000 players. Maybe a few will really make it big...some of them have licenses that are well known and attract a bigger following. Some will try and succeed with Kickstarter, some will fail.

    It will NOT take 100 years or a lifetime. It will take years, and depend on your team or if you can spend money hiring people, or you have a nice community like we have for Atavism. We help each other and it is like having a huge team around you, all giving advice, making plugins, keeping you sane at times with support, and motivating you to continue.

    I am sure the other MMOkit and Frameworks like uMMORPG are just as helpful to those who want to go on this journey but I cannot speak for them.

    I have to say this a million times it seems...if you really want to make a game, any game, just go for it. Do what you want, spend your time the way you want to spend your time. Be realistic. Any indie game is probably not going to bring you tons of money...and will instead cost you money to develop and market.

    As for that lifetime, we only have one. So enjoy yourself and do something that makes you happy and feel good. Making a game, even an MMO, is a process and if you love that process as much as I do, then do not let anyone tell you not to do it.

    Naysayers are everywhere. Look for those positive people who encourage you and motivate you. And those who give you honest criticism that helps you achieve what you want.
     
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  28. critmanichx732

    critmanichx732

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    Can anyone tell me the minimum requirements to open a thread in the WIP Section? If it is something as basic as a playable character and a map, then it's definitely ready, not fancy at all, but functional.
     
  29. Teila

    Teila

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    I absolutely forgot I had posted almost the same thing above...but added a bit, so oh well. I guess I need to pay attention to the names of the threads. LOL
     
  30. Ony

    Ony

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    hey now.
     
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  31. AngryBirman

    AngryBirman

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    Don't forget that making the MMORPG is only one part of the project.

    MMORPG needs stable dedicated servers, support staff, maintenance and really good security The list goes on. It is expensive.
     
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